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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Siely on Tuesday 04 February 25 20:28 GMT (UK)
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I have found a number of German surnames in London from mid 19th century to 1920s/30s. I found it surprising but maybe due to Queen Victoria cultural influence ?
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Sugar bakers and confectioners.
https://sixinthecity.co.uk/news/2022/02/sugar-bakers-of-london/
Following the ascension to the throne of George I in 1714, German bankers, artists and merchants followed the king’s household to England, including German and Dutch sugar bakers who set up sugar houses in partnership with the English. The word ‘sugar baker’ is actually a direct translation of the German word ‘Zukerbäcker’ and many German migrants came to Britain to work, particularly from the area around Hamburg, as German sugar boilers were considered the best.
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_United_Kingdom
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Pre war London was well known for its numbers of German waiters who came to the UK for work.
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Also check the Special Interest Groups Database in the RC Reference Library.
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?dbsig_num=2
Especially the German Pork Butchers ;)
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Pre war London was well known for its numbers of German waiters who came to the UK for work.
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I just found one who married a distant relative.
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The 1921 English census has 19,615 entries for people b Germany but 99,353 in 1911 - pre WW1
Wales 384 1911 = 1568
Channel Islands - 63 1911 = 99
Isle of Man - 36 1911 = 115
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My gg grandfather was born in Germany and came over sometime in the early 1850's and settled in the Poplar/Whitechapel area of London. There seems to have been quite a number of Germans in that area - I know that a couple of them were involved in running pubs.
They anglicised their surname before WW1.
Jackie
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Mainland Europe used to consist of small Princedoms, Duchies and Kingdoms. One such kingdom was The Kingdom of Hanover which was gifted to a Scottish King when he arranged for his grand daughter Sophia to marry a Germanic Prince. There are many places in the UK with place names eminating from Hannover = such as Brunswick Square, the Hannover placename being Braunschweig (Braunschweig or Brunswick is a city in Lower Saxony, Germany, north of the Harz Mountains at the farthest navigable point of the river Oker). The army raised in The Kingdom of Hanover was known as the Hessian Army and I believe it was sometimes stationed in the south of England. If the soldiers finished their army service in England, they often stayed in England.
Prussia and Austria tried to pursuade the Kingdom of Hanover to join them in a Germanic state, Hannover refused and was invaded by Prussia. Apparently, the Prussian army was brutal Many Hanovarians managed to secretly escape to other countries.
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Alan O, KGarrad, DianaCanada, CaroleW, Jackiemh, Rena
Thank you very much indeed for your help. This subject has really surprised me , I came across it by accident, eg German sugar merchants buying very significant property.
I had no idea of German waiters , I always associated that with Italians.
Just shows the enormous challenge faced by the ordinary family history hobbyist (like me)
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Just shows the enormous challenge faced by the ordinary family history hobbyist (like me)
Why?
English, and British, history is a patchwork of immigration.
Romans, Vikings, Normans, French, Huguenots, Germans, Flemish, Russian Jews . . . . the list goes on!
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KGarrad,
Yes I read the textbooks about the really big events but big cities have many smaller economic migrations over time that are not so easy to detect.
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You might find this interesting ... www.mawer.clara.net/ppanayi.html ... The Settlement of Germans in Britain during the Nineteenth Century.
Also, my website regarding the sugarbakers mentioned by KGarrad is at www.mawer.clara.net
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Do you have German Ancestry?
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"The dark brown sugar molasses were brought to Lisbon, Antwerp, and Amsterdam, where they were further refined into coned sugar loaves". (15th/16th Century sugar trade)
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/sugar/
Before the German sugarbakers of George I were the
sugarcones or sugarloaves from Antwerp of Tudor England.
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What happened to those Dutch/Belgian surnames that appear in anglicised form in Dickens ? (Dikkens surname itself from low countries ?)
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Why do you want to know? Do those names appear in your FH?
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Why do you want to know? Do those names appear in your FH?
The family were prominent in a trade (and its livery company) throughout Dickens writing period. So those strange 3 or 4 syllable surnames he used are of interest. What was his purpose in using those long surnames ? What happened to them , why did they disappear ?
Author Dr Ruth Richardson offers no help on this either.
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What happened to those Dutch/Belgian surnames that appear in anglicised form in Dickens ? (Dikkens surname itself from low countries ?)
I had no idea Dickens was anything but English. The ken” and “kin” ending (e.g. Wilkins, Hopkins, Tompkins, Hawkins, etc) is common in England…not saying the Flemings didn’t have an influence on this surname for, but we’re going back eight hundred or nine hundred years. There are also surnames that have a Norman French influence, patronymics that evolved from names the Normans introduced to England such as Hubert, Roland, Robert. To me, all these surnames are English, with some outside influences. Makes it all the more interesting.
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"Dickens is an English surname originating from the name Dick, the diminutive of Richard, stemmed with the patronymic termination ens, meaning belonging to, or the son of. "
Can't find any link to a Dutch name?
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"Dickens is an English surname originating from the name Dick, the diminutive of Richard, stemmed with the patronymic termination ens, meaning belonging to, or the son of. "
Can't find any link to a Dutch name?
Wouldn't a diminutive take the form Richards or Richardson ? The frequency of Dickens is low and what exactly is his fascination with those 3/4 syllable surnames ? What point is he trying to make by using them ?
PS His first name Charles is Karel in Dutch. Hence the choice Christmas Carol ?
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There is no reference to Dickens in Hans Bahlow’s ‘German Names !
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"Dickens is an English surname originating from the name Dick, the diminutive of Richard, stemmed with the patronymic termination ens, meaning belonging to, or the son of. "
Can't find any link to a Dutch name?
Wouldn't a diminutive take the form Richards or Richardson ? The frequency of Dickens is low and what exactly is his fascination with those 3/4 syllable surnames ? What point is he trying to make by using them ?
PS His first name Charles is Karel in Dutch. Hence the choice Christmas Carol ?
Karel is a gender-neutral name of German origin. It derives from the Old German name Karl, meaning “free man.”
Can't find any link to Christmas carols!
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It derives from the Old German name Karl, meaning “free man.”
Hence the origin of the pre-Norman place-name in England "Carlton".
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"Dickens is an English surname originating from the name Dick, the diminutive of Richard, stemmed with the patronymic termination ens, meaning belonging to, or the son of. "
Can't find any link to a Dutch name?
Wouldn't a diminutive take the form Richards or Richardson ? The frequency of Dickens is low and what exactly is his fascination with those 3/4 syllable surnames ? What point is he trying to make by using them ?
PS His first name Charles is Karel in Dutch. Hence the choice Christmas Carol ?
A diminutive is a shortened or pet form of a name…you are confusing it with a patronymic which denotes “son of”, such as Richards or Richardson. In southern England just an added “s” was more commonly used than “son” added, which was more prevalent in the north.
Apparently the English have always had trouble with their r’s”, the original Germanic sound was much harsher and sounded at the back of the throat - leading to Dick for Richard (also centuries ago most likely pronounced as Rick-hard), Dob for Robert, and Dodge for Roger.
I have the surname Hollands in my tree, and it is a patronymic for Roland. Considering the many surnames that have come Roland (Holland, Rawlings, Rawlinson, Rolls, etc) the given name must have been quite popular when surnames were forming.
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What is the actual purpose of this post? Siely has been asked twice whether it is connected to his FH but has not replied
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What is the actual purpose of this post? Siely has been asked twice whether it is connected to his FH but has not replied
This topic seems more suitable for The Lighter Side, as it is not an individual query, we supposedly not as Siely has not said if he/she has German roots and/or is researching a particular German family.
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The number of Germans in London I came across was a surprise to me, that's all.
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The number of Germans in London I came across was a surprise to me, that's all.
Why? London, like many other big cities, has long been a melting pot of people from many many different countries.
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"The 1921 English census has 19,615 entries for people b Germany but 99,353 in 1911 - pre WW1"
Several internet sources such as GCSE history note that the military expansionism of the Kaiser meant growing German public concern for decades about conscription in Germany hence migration to escape it. They could have returned them to Germany for prosecution ?
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"The 1921 English census has 19,615 entries for people b Germany but 99,353 in 1911 - pre WW1"
Several internet sources such as GCSE history note that the military expansionism of the Kaiser meant growing German public concern for decades about conscription in Germany hence migration to escape it. They could have returned them to Germany for prosecution ?
I haven't verified the figures you quote- what is the source?- but boundaries in Europe changed after WWI and it may be some people that listed their birthplace as 'Germany' in 1911 but as some place else in 1921 (the same could apply to being born in 'Russia' in 1911 but Poland or other areas in 1921).
Your figures don't give age breakdowns for 1911 vs. 1921 but many of the older people born in Germany, according to 1911, could have died by 1921.
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Most people of German nationality were interned during WW1
As well as Italians, Austrians and Hungarians.
Presumably, many decided to return home?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_in_the_United_Kingdom_during_the_First_World_War
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aghadowey,
Those figures are in Reply #5 in this thread.
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Reply 5 was mine.
I have found a number of German surnames in London from mid 19th century to 1920s/30s. I found it surprising but maybe due to Queen Victoria cultural influence ?
Your opening post is more of an observation and has no apparent reason behind it hence me asking on 2 occasions whether you had German ancestry. You say "a number of German surnames" & you found it "surprising" but don't say what "number" surprised you?
I posted the census figures to demonstrate the number of entries with a German birthplace/surname in those 2 census years which cover pre & post WW1
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I must say I have learned quite a bit from this thread, so the original poster's intent is really not that important, is it?
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I must say I have learned quite a bit from this thread, so the original poster's intent is really not that important, is it?
...and me, I came to a stop whilst looking back for my OH's 'Kaizer' family. I've discovered some new avenues because of this. Thank you Siely. :)
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There was even a German Hospital in Dalston Place, Dalston, founded in 1845. Offered free treatment to German speaking immigrants. Also cared for English speakers in emergencies.
In 1864, it moved to Alma Road (renamed Ritson Road in 1877) with 100 beds. By 1890, 142 beds. During WW1, the German staff remained at the hospital. Continued to increase the number of beds until there were 192.
In 1940, the German staff were interned on the Isle of Man.
The hospital closed in 1987.
More information is in Wikipedia and Lost Hospitals of London
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Quote from Aghadowey, 'and it may be some people that listed their birthplace as 'Germany' in 1911 but as some place else in 1921'
Yes, I only know Saxe-Coburg ended in 1918. Did people put Place of Birth before then as Belgium,Germany, or Saxe-Coburg. Did they not then become born in Belgium or Germany so increasing the numbers ? I've never found any so I have no idea what might have happened.
I know Queen Victoria's grandson was a Nazi politician and German General, quite a mess. His inheritance in Esher Surrey was confiscated by HM Government.
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Hessians
Palatinates
Hanoverians
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Some fantastic responses above.
German hospital in Dalston, Queen Victoria family, .. these things matter to ordinary people whose London families were subject to their social influences.
I had no idea at all about any of this when starting my FH , frightening when you think about it !
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A really interesting thread. I don't think it has been mentioned that the British royal family changed surname during the 1st WW from Saxe-Coburg Gotha to Windsor.
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I have a strand of Germans who came to London in the early 19th century - predominantly sugar bakers from Hanover.
A couple of things I noticed was that for about 2 generations they only seemed to marry other Germans and seemed to retain the German naming customs. It probably took until the 3rd generation before they began to marry outside of their community and gradually move away from sugar baking.
Another thing was that one particular branch of the family Anglicised their surname around 1880.
Roger
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The 1921 census came less than 3 years after the end of WW1, possibly people were less willing to acknowledge their German/Austrian/Hungarian heritage due animosity that may have been felt towards them because of the war. The Royal Family changed its name to become more British, so not impossible that ordinary Germans felt the same.
My aunt married in 1933 and her new husband had a German grandmother. I remember my mother telling me that "his mother was German, but she was a lovely person". Thinking about it now, this almost sounds as if it needed to be justified, especially as his mother was British born and her father was English, only his granny was German. Its a small town, and everybody would know everybody!
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My own understanding of German/Prussian influences in 18/19/early 20th Cen. has improved . Been reading about Queen Victoria travelling to her beloved Scotland by train.
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I have French Huguenot ancestry, one surname is Auber, and one website said it is also a German name. I have no known German blood but one Essex ancestor's sister wed a German man in London in 1839.
Also I wonder how many Germans in London came from what was then Prussia? I have read about Germans who Polanized their surnames and vice versa over the centuries.
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I have French Huguenot ancestry, one surname is Auber, and one website said it is also a German name. I have no known German blood but one Essex ancestor's sister wed a German man in London in 1839.
Also I wonder how many Germans in London came from what was then Prussia? I have read about Germans who Polanized their surnames and vice versa over the centuries.
I've also had a frustrating time with ordinary economic migration , big military refugee movements are usually very well described, but other migratory motives are much harder to get a handle on. e.g. the demise of the East India Company and subsequent redundant sailors / dock workers played a part in my FH. Military history certainly dominates.
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The demise of the (British) East India Company was largely due to the Indian Mutiny (or First Indian War of Independence).
The brother of my 4xGreat Grandfather was there!
He was a Vet, and hid in a cellar whilst a massacre happened.
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The demise of the (British) East India Company was largely due to the Indian Mutiny (or First Indian War of Independence).
The brother of my 4xGreat Grandfather was there!
He was a Vet, and hid in a cellar whilst a massacre happened.
I recently found out that my gg-grandparents ran a clothing business near the old London docks and most of their customers were mariners. Second hand clothing was called "slop" and sellers "slopsellers"
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I once read a blog about a London born William Weidhofft, born in Soho in 1828. I think he was a businessman of German descent on his father's side. He was the same age as my William Thomas Coombs also born 1828 in Soho. Wm Coombs was of Dorset blood though, and likely never knew Weidhofft.