RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: weenie on Monday 03 February 25 18:56 GMT (UK)
-
Hi i have Hannah Jane Smith. b23 June 1876 Summerhill Denbigshire.
married to George James about 1905 , but not found marriage cert yet.
i would like help on finding her parents please.
i have her birth with mmn Smith and from FindMyPast school log books in 1881 Mary Dodd is her relative and confirmed birth as correct as 1939 register
now in 1891 i have Hannah living with aunt Mary Dodd- this is same person on log book on FindMyPast.
Mary is widowed.
1881 Mary is with Hannah Jane Harper aged 4 - dont know if same Hannah hence me trying to find her parents. or just her mum as border with Roberts family.
1871 Mary is with Thomas Dodd so i premsued Mary may be Roberts - 1881 Census, plus a marriage in 1863 but dont know if fits and near to where they live.
i have found a death accident for a Thomas Dodd in 1880 which fits with widowed on census for Mary - but age is out .
any suggestions on how to find Hannah birth parents?
much appriciated weenie
-
sorry forgot to add Hannah birth cert says Jane Smith of Pentre Broughton - domestic servant
weenie
-
There is this 1901, which is the same street as the James family in 1911. There is also a married visitor Elizabeth Brown with them, who could fit from the below 1901.
1901 - Wrexham
Jane Allan 56 Head, wid, Broughton
Hannah J Allan, 24 Daughter "
Elizabeth Allan 16 Daughter, Wrexham
Thomas Welsby 47 Boarder
Added - Hannah J not with Allan/Allen family in 1891
Cas
-
Possible 1891 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:45BN-LW2?lang=en
Marriage for Jane Edge & James Allan, Jane is a widow and her father Robert Smith, a collier, address for both 26 Meifod Place.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC5Y-44V?lang=en
Baptism 2 Aug 1884 Wrexham
Elizabeth dau of Thomas & Jane Edge 26 Meifod Place
marriage of Thomas Edge & Jane Smith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC5T-BM1?lang=en
-
I was just about to post the same thing, to have second opinion to see if it fits
thankyou Weenie
-
baptism in Wrexham 19 Feb 1842, Jane daughter of Robert, collier, and Hannah Smith of Broughton.
-
SMITH, JANE
mmn ROBERTS
Q1 1842 WREXHAM Volume 27 Page 297
Added - probably ignore this, see below
-
However the only Robert Smith and Hannah marriage I can find locally is to a Hannah Price
-
1851- Broughton. all born Moss
Robert Smith 40
Mary Smith 31
Jane Smith 8
William Smith 4
John Smith 2
Ann Smith 84 Lodger
A Robert Smith (widower) married Mary Dodd in 1846 - births with mmn Dodd for William and John can be found.
-
Thankyou for this much appriciated
Weenie
-
Hi,
Looking at the GRO records, these indicate that Hannah Jane Smith birth (Wrexham Sept Qtr 1876, Vol 11B, Page323) did not show a mothers maiden name. This normally tends to suggest an illegitimate birth.
I would contend that in the 1881 census, it is not unreasonable to presume it very likely to be the same person, now being looked after by Mary Dodd - possibly a sister or other relative of Jane Smith?
I have seen similar situations previously, with the position becoming clearer when the individual married and her birth fathers name appeared on the marriage certificate.
I would think her birth fathers surname was "Harper" but if you cannot find an actual marriage for Hannah, which could have information to help solve your dilemma, it could be difficult to establish precise details.
Have you looked for male "Harper" in the area and discounted any of them? There is a boarder James Harper in the same area Gresford age 35 in 1881 which might be of interest?
Its a bit of guesswork currently I'm afraid.
Alan
-
Yes i have the certificate i forgot to add to my 1st post. added on 2nd post.
the National school board on FindMyPast indicated Mary Dodd as relative. and same birth as birth cert.
thankyou Weenie
-
If Robert married Mary Dodd, wouldnt she be known as Mary Smith in the census and maybe another mary dodd ?
-
Hi,
I think I may have found the marriage in 1905 -
George James and Ann Smith (assuming her name misheard as "Ann" instead of "Hannah")
Wrexham, June Qtr 1905, Vol 11B, Page 546.
Also on North Wales BMD showing as a civil marriage.
May be worth buying the certificate?
Alan
-
I think that the 1905 marriage is a very good possible. Ann can be a shortened version of Hannah.
Jane is still alive in 1911, living as housekeeper to son in law David Brown born c1883 Wrexham. Family are in Lancashire. Also in house is grandson William Brown b1907 Wrexham.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2352/records/19273991
Burial address is same as given for Hannah J James in 1911.
Jane Allen
Death Age 71
Record Type Burial
Death Place 2 Villiers Street
Burial Date 8 Aug 1913
Burial Place Wrexham, Wales
Burial Information 8576
Plot Number 04571
Cemetery Wrexham cemetery
ALLEN, JANE age 71
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 323
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/133931551/jane-allen
1921 the Brown family are still in Lancs, Elizabeth is recorded as Bessie.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/24073047
Cas
-
From info from baptism, I think the marriage of Hannah Price to Robert Smith on 30 Dec 1839 Wrexham are possibly correct parents for Jane. (Marriage image online)
Likely death of Hannah, death cert would confirm
Name Hannah Smith
Death Age 26
Record Type Burial
Birth Date 1819
Death Date abt 1845
Burial Date 6 Mar 1845
Burial Place Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales
Page number 59
Robert then marries spinster Mary Dodd in 1846 (image online) who names her father as William Dodd. I believe Thomas Dodd (father William) who married Mary Roberts (image online) was brother to Mary Dodd the 2nd wife of Robert Smith. Which would make him uncle by marriage to Jane Smith
Thomas & Mary Dodd were likely childless so likely the Dodd family took Hannah Jane, as in 1881/1891 census and helped raise her.
Unfortunately 1841 for area seems sparse or missing?. The 1851 for Dodd family born Moss is there.
There may also be a sister for Jane, that is working as a servant in 1851. (With possible Aunt nee Price)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8861/records/16107841
Name Eliza Smith
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 1840
Baptism Date 27 Nov 1840
Baptism Place Brymbo, Denbighshire, Wales (image is Broughton)
Father Robert Smith
Mother Hannah Smith
Page number 15
Just my thoughts
Cas
-
Wow. I had to nip out after i posted and finally get back to all this. you are all fantastic.
this is great many many thanks all of you ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
much appriciated
weenie
-
Thomas & Mary Dodd were likely childless so likely the Dodd family took Hannah Jane, as in 1881/1891 census and helped raise her.
If he's the Thomas who died in December 1880 in a colliery accident, the newspaper reporting, which identifies him as being of Summerhill, is varied as to whether he was childless or had one child. There's a few Dodd children with mmn Roberts born in the Wrexham area in the 1860s and 70s [added: but some of these can be found on 1871 with different parents]
-
I'm popping in late on this one.
Hope this helps. All in same grave in Wrexham Cemetery. 04571
ALLEN JANE 1913 age 71 2 VILLIERS STREET 8576 08/08/1913 04571
JAMES GEORGE 1939 age 68 CROESNEWYDD HOSPITAL17525 25/08/1939 04571
JAMES HANNAH JANE 1957 age 81 MAELOR GENERAL HOSPITAL 24971 17/07/19 57 04571
JAMES JOHN 1936 age 73 12 WELLINGTON RD WREXHAM 1651005/11/1936 04571
-
1911 Villiers Street Wrexham
Married 6 years . I child born I child died
George James 41 b Wrexham
Hannah Jane James wife 34 b Summerhill
William Henry (James incorrect it is Williams )39 boarder
Emily James 32 incorrect Williams boarder
Elizabeth Brown 26 visitor
-
George and Hannah Jane have a son Francis 10 years later.
This may be him,
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tmv/
-
Going back on the Price family, there is a very likely baptism for Hannah
bapt - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/699013
Name Hannah Price
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 23 Mar 1818
Baptism Date 29 Mar 1818
Baptism Place Minera, Denbighshire, Wales
Father John - occ miner
Mother Jane - maiden name Hughes
Page number 82
Address given is Nantyffrith (Nant y Ffrith)
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Bwlchgwyn/ On map, enlarged, it is above Bwlchgwyn and extends into the Flintshire border.
Not finding a marriage for John Price to Jane Hughes but there is this one, Jane is a widow
marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/837793
Name John Price - bach & occ miner
Marriage Date 28 Apr 1815
Marriage Place Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales
Residence Place Wrexham
Spouse Jane Roberts - widow
Page number 56
Cas
-
Likely this is the Eliza Price who witnessed the 1839 marriage for Hannah & Robert so would be sister to Hannah.
Bapt - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/698971
Name Eliza Price
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 26 Jan 1816
Baptism Date 18 Feb 1816
Baptism Place Minera, Denbighshire, Wales
Father John - miner
Mother Jane - maiden name Hughes
Same address - Nantyffrith
Eliza married in 1842 and can be found on census with family.
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/843340
Name Eliza Price
Marriage Age Full Age
Marriage Date 31 Dec 1842
Marriage Place Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales
Father John Price - miner
Spouse Joseph Edwards
Cas
-
This is the likely Aunt in 1851 (see reply #15) with Eliza Smith, (servant) daughter of Hannah. Married Jonathan Mathias in 1846, found in census 1851/61 with family. Jane died 1864. (Burial online)
Bapt - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/699995
Name Jane Price
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 1823
Baptism Date 12 Jan 1823
Baptism Place Minera, Denbighshire, Wales
Father John - miner
Mother Jane
Page number 8
Same address Nantyffrith
There is also John Price in 1825 & Thomas Price 1827 with same parents & baptism address.
John - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/700067
Thomas - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/62103/records/700100
Cas
-
wow, thankyou all for this information sorry but i not recieved notifications.
i will look in to all this
many thanks
weenie
-
wow, thankyou all for this information sorry but i not recieved notifications.
i will look in to all this
many thanks
weenie
Have you ticked the notify box.
I have put something on your Kings Mills post.
-
i actually dont know, because i just recieved this notification ????
Thankyou so much for the information.
weenie