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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: NorthernGeezer on Sunday 02 February 25 17:23 GMT (UK)
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Michael is my 2 times great grandfather and I'm struggling to find much information about him and his wife Mary Ann.
I've plenty of info about there son, James Ward (1885-1930) and James daughter (my grandmother) Eileen Margaret Ward (1914-1966).
What I THINK I know............. I have James birth record which details his DOB on 11 November 1885 in Belfast to Michael Ward and Mary Ann Ward nee Dougherty or Dogerty.
I have details of their marriage dated the last quarter in 1878 in Belfast along with the 1901 census record which puts Michaels age at 51 and born in County Tyrone and Mary Ann at 44, born in Belfast, the 1911 census shows Michael at 62 and Mary Ann at 59.
I also have a newspaper clipping of Michaels death dated 3 September 1913, and that's it for Michael.
Any help in moving this 'backwards' in time would be gratefully appreciated.
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The marriage of Michael and Mary Ann
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1878/11115/8068739.pdf
Have you checked any of these ?
They married in a Catholic church - so there may be baptism records.
His father Peter, is shown as alive so there is hope there.
Her father, John Dougherty, engineer is deceased.
A witness is Agnes Dougherty.
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Is this Agnes Mitchell, the niece in 1901?
Her mother - Margaret Doherty
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02819/2034224.pdf
Added 1870 Mitchell/Dogherty marriage confirms father John, deceased
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11398/8185485.pdf
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Your published tree shows Michael's parents as Peter Ward and Agnes Kerr and Mary Anne’s parents as John Dougherty and Jane Bammer.
Do you have records with the information?
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The parents of both Michael and Mary Ann were thrown up by Ancestry or FindMyPast, I have the marriage record for Peter Ward and Agnes Rice as 30 December 1847 so I'm not sure where Agnes Kerr fits in, and I have the marriage certificate for John Dougherty and Jane Bammer as 10th April 1847.
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The parents of both Michael and Mary Ann were thrown up by Ancestry or FindMyPast, I have the marriage record for Peter Ward and Agnes Rice as 30 December 1847 so I'm not sure where Agnes Kerr fits in, and I have the marriage certificate for John Dougherty and Jane Bammer as 10th April 1847.
Could the surname Rice have been mis-transcribed as Kerr? (capital R and K often look similar, both name have 3 more letters that could possibly be confused)
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It looks like an 'R' to me aghadowey, how do i attach a copy of the document to this post??
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I don’t understand what you want to know.
Your post implies you know nothing of Michael and Mary Ann, prior to their marriage.
You wrote that you have details of their marriage but didn’t include theur fathers’ names etc.
When you say ‘thrown up by Anvestry abd Find my Past’ , do you mean they are records or from published trees?
Have you followed those leads?
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Here is the death of Peter Ward, 61 yrs in 1896. His death was reported by his son, Michael Ward, 17, Annadale Street.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05901/4674422.pdf
William Ward’s birth in 1895 shows the same residence for Michael and Mary Anne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02208/1833842.pdf
The ages do not fit well - Peter 61 yrs in 1896 and Michael 51 yrs in 1901 but often ages are out.
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The info I have is off the details/ hints Ancestry and FindMyPast give you, not of someone else's tree, I did follow these hints but as you know, they are just hints and did not lead to actual evidence/ records.
I knew Michael's and Mary Ann's marriage details from the marriage register, not the actual certificate itself, hence the fact I didn't know their fathers.
Your right about ages on records, details transcribed are often wrong, very sloppy documentation.
Thanks for finding Peter, I went on the Irish genealogy site and came up with nothing ::) ::)
I think I'll probably have the same problem going back on his lineage too.
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The baptism and marriage you mention with parents Peter and Agnes is County Down.
The censuses have Michael as born County Tyrone.
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So STILL no nearer then ::) ::)
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With regards to the couple, John D and Jane Bammer, who you have as Mary Anne’s parents, i don’t think they could be correct either.
The marriage in 1878, shows her father as John, engineer, deceased.
You have John Dougherty’s death in 1889 - after the marriage and Jane's death as 1893.
That Jane is married and her husband, John, is a fruit merchant.
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Given Peter Ward is listed on a death register in Belfast age 61 on 21st April 1896, putting his birth at 1835, the person registering his death was Michael Ward this looks the right guy.
Fly in the ointment, Peter married Agnes Rice 30th December 1847 meaning he was 12 :o :o so, the wrong dead Peter or the wrong marriage Peter??
The dead Peter has the right credentials regarding the son Michael and the fact his death is recorded in Belfast, so is it the marriage that's wrong then??
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The age given on the death certificate is that assumed/known by the informant. How important age was - who knows..
The marriage you post gives residence as ‘Gargory’ - perhaps Gargarry.
https://www.townlands.ie/down/iveagh-upper-lower-half/drumgooland/ballyward/gargarry/
That was in County Down but your Michael gives a birthplace of County Tyrone. However, you would need further records to verify.
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There is a record of a Michael Ward born 18 December 1848 in Gargory in line with the Peter Ward and Agnes Rice marriage, however................the 1901 census which has the County Tyrone Michael Ward on it also includes my great grandfather, James Ward so it looks like the Peter Ward/ Agnes Rice marriage is not correct.
I would also question the validity of the Peter Ward death certificate in 1896, my Michael Ward would have been 46 then, not 17.
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If you look at the death certificate and the birth certificate I posted, the address is 17 - it is not his age.
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Apologies Heywood, I should have read the second line ::) ::)
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Your right about ages being out, I've found Michaels death record, died 3 September 1913 listed as age 55 where the census records suggest he should be listed as 63 ::) ::)
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That death of Peter Ward gives his address as 5 Bread Street and his occupation as a labourer.
It seems right as the informant is Michael whose address fits for that time.
This site has street guides. https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/BSD1901.htm
There are two Bread Streets - one off Newtownards Road and one off Derby Street.
In 1890, 5 Bread Street (Derby St) has Peter Ward, belt sewer.
He is there in 1880 and 1877.
Here is a death for Alice Ward, 41 yrs, wife of a Shoemaker. Her residence - 5 Bread Street.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1890/06108/4743565.pdf
The informant - a cousin, E McAnulty.
It’s a bit of a puzzle. Shoemaker and belt maker could be the same kind of occupation but then he is also a labourer on his death and Michael’s marriage.
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If you look at the death certificate and the birth certificate I posted, the address is 17 - it is not his age.
Apologies Heywood, I should have read the second line ::) ::)
In Column 9, it says-
Michael Ward
Son
In Attendance
17 Annadale Street
See image below-
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Peters death certificate shows his place of death as the workhouse...............sad times eh.
Thanks for that and the info on Alice.
As an aside, how do you find out all this info Heywood yet I seem to struggle??, I've only been at this a couple of years and learned a lot in that time but there seems to be people on here, and other genealogy sites, who seem to tap in to evidence a lot easier than I do.
I'm a member of a genealogy club in Manchester and we have a go-to guy there who you can nearly guarantee if you cant find it, he can, this club however concentrates on Lancashire only so if you get hints outside the area he hasn't got the time to assist but will point you in the right direction, the Wards and the Doughty's being a case in point.
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Sometimes it is just trawling through records - as in the case of that Alice Ward.
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Just a thought, If Alice ward was 41 in 1890 she would have been born in 1849 so couldn't be the mother of Michael.
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That’s what i thought but ages again!
Perhaps there was a brother to Michael who was a beltmaker or shoemaker.
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What do you think of this?
Marriage 1874
Peter Ward, widower, Belt Sewer, and Alice Kelly/Smith widow
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11250/8126039.pdf
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Parish record of that marriage - Peter’s parents Simon (rather than Simeon on civil record) and Catherine
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633200?locale=en#page/8/mode/1up
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Peters death certificate shows his place of death as the workhouse...............sad times eh.
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Some workhouses also housed the local infirmary or hospital.
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Peters death certificate shows his place of death as the workhouse...............sad times eh.
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Some workhouses also housed the local infirmary or hospital.
Belfast certainly did - see https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Belfast/
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The marriage to Alice is a great find Heywood and whilst its NOT Michaels mother, it does tell us Peter was a widower, age 50, and gives us a work-back DOB of 1824 and if we are happy with his date of death as 1896 then he was 72.
Simon and Catherine as his parents are another good find too.
So, to close the loop I'm still searching for Michaels mother and his birth, dont get any easier do it and I've still not started on the Doughertys!!
Thanks for that info shanreagh, workhouse gives everyone a false impression I think.
Peters grandson, James Ward, was in a sanitarium in England for the 1921 census, which implies, well, I dont know what but in fact he contracted TB in WW1 and was in there convalescing.
Thanks for the link to Belfast workhouses Kiltaglassan, it made interesting reading.