RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: cathayb on Monday 27 January 25 22:48 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for jessie Holland a male Romany.born between 1935-1940.died between year 2000 and 2010.Wide berth i know but he managed to miss cencus,birth and marriage certs.He was brought up alot of the time by Priscilla Benham/Holland.He sometimes used the name Davis Holland and i wonder if his mum died young and he used her name as well as his fathers.He travelled along way all the time but spent a lot of time in Somerset.The whole wider family I know had a lot buried in Yeovil Somerset.He married a woman from the midlands with the name Dambrass but as folk had trouble with that she was called Doreen,Her maiden name family came from stevens, Davis, Loveridge and smith. Her mum and dad were called Cornelius Davis and ‘ nenny’ stevens/ Loveridge. So Jesse may have taken the Davis name from her. Or maybe not, and there is no sign of marriage.Jessie had a number of children the 1st 2 being Shirley and Ditta and then a boy Frank now dead but has a son of the same name.We think the dead frank married in about 1978 but will not say more as there will be living relatives.It is possible his dad was Bill Holland or Henry holland But we have no proof what so ever.
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The male version is Jesse - female is Jessie
Where does the surname Hughes come from?
How have you arrived at the possible period of his birth & death? Where did he die?
Given you say there is no documentary evidence re birth & marriage certs - where has all the various info about him come from?
If he died so long ago - his 1939 entry should be open. Have you looked for it?
There is nothing under either christian name on the GRO index but deaths from 2007 are mainly available from GRO online. Have you checked?
Where does he fit into your FH?
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There is a Jesse HOLLAND, 18, and his cousin Michael HOLLAND, 28, "Somerset gypsies" committed for trial for stealing a horse in 1949. A few mentions eg:
Wednesday, Aug. 24, 1949
Publication: Western Daily Press
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there's this possible death reg
Jesse Benham dec qtr 2004 Bath & NE Somerset which gives a dob of 2 March 1924
which appears to match this birth reg
Jesse Benham march qtr 1924 Dorchester vol 5a pg 502 mmn Hughes
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This is sadly wrong.Right family tree but this Jesse you mention was a generation before the jesse I am looking for.This jessie you have given me was teannie Hughes son,She had a daughter Priscilla Benham who when she married?(no marriage found)took care of Jesse we think now born about 1930 and possible death near Wisbech in the year 1990's sometime.If I could find Prissie Benham who maybe married Bill Holland ( she had 5 kids with him) pre 1939 I would be able to put it together I think.They travelled far and wide but often in somereset.A very large family group of them.I am thinking Jesse was a Holland but maybe his mum died when he was very young,
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It is said but only hearsay That Bill Holland had a woman before Prissie and thats what makes me think maybe he fell out with the woman or she died but that he and his son jesse lived with Prissie after he lost the 1st woman.But there is no proof.
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Jesse Holland . Occasional Copy: A
Jan-Mar 1934 . Glossop . Volume 07b . Page 1214
Added:
Jesse Francis Hollands
Oct-Dec 1934 . Rochford Volume 04a Page 1076
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Where did you find this?apart from ancestry I am not much good at funding things.Can you explain how to get this info?DOES IT give a mothers surname or any other details?
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I found both on the GRO and after 1925 they do not offer a mmn. FreeBMD offer a mmn, but I could not find either listed on that site. There was no other information, but Occasional Copy: A makes me think they were not married, so there could be a certificate under her name as well. After 1935 the GRO stops listing until much later.
Added: I looked again.
Jesse Holland mmn Higginbottom . Jan-Mar 1934 . Glossop . 7b . 1214
Jesse F Hollands . mmn Hunt . Oct-Dec 1934. Rochford . 4a . 1076
Added x2: I also looked for Jessie, the female spelling:
Jessie M Holland mmn Swan . Jul-Sep 1930 . Mutford . 4a . 1788
Jessie E Holland mmn Tyrrell . Apr-Jun 1931. Epsom. 2a . 104
Jessie Holland mmn Wilkinson . Jul-Sep 1933 . Bangor . 11b . 570
There are plenty of Hollands being registered, but those offered are all I could find with different spellings of Jesse and Holland. There is nothing with mmn Benham using a phonetic searches. If her later children were registered with mmn Benham, it would suggest an earlier, different woman as the mother. Could Jesse be a middle name?
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Maybe registered twice as different areas.They were at that time tent dwelling Romanies.I think the father was William Holland who married another lady and possibly took his son into her care.this whole huge family rarely married but jumped the broom but I think Bill,/William was merely sowing wild oars on this occasion. Higginbottom or Hunt are not common Romany names so wondered if he met a local girl?we have had a lot of trouble with this large family as they avoided census and marriage at every opportunity.We are sure Jesse was a well travelled Romany throughout his life and we know of some kids he had but they do not know their grandparents.He settled later in life with another awkward Romany lady from the midlands called Dambrass with 3 possible surnames and as she grew she was known as Doreen Stevens which we think is her mother's maiden name as her dad or grandad we are not sure as we do not know her dob was a loveridge.Jesse F Holland is most likely right as he had a sin Frank and cousins with 1st name Frank so I think Jesse Frank Holland would be right.
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Jesse Holland mmn Higginbottom . Jan-Mar 1934 . Glossop . 7b . 1214
Jesse F Hollands . mmn Hunt . Oct-Dec 1934. Rochford . 4a . 1076
These are likely the couples connected to the births.
Marriage Dec 1927
HOLLAND, Jesse
HIGGINBOTTAM, Florence
Glossop 7b 2125
Marriage Sep 1920
HOLLANDS, Horace W
HUNT, Daisy L M
Rochford 4a 1923
Debra :)
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None of them could read or right so it was only the register or enumrrator writing what heard.I doubt the mother had a birth cert either so she could have given any surname she like.wow just seen latest post!A marriage Almost unheard of in this family and as we thought he had half siblings maybe he had full older siblings.This is well worth working on
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So that gives me 2 choices of who my Jesse might be.Horace is a name that runs in the family and if his middle name is known as William shortened to Bill was maybe known by the name Bill so as not to mix up with other by the name Horace.Nothing certain yet so I going on the 1939 census and see what turns up
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Unfortunately neither of the two are the Jesse I am looking for.Apart from looking at their families back into the 1800's there is no sign of them being Romany Gypsies.In 1939 they are both unnamed but still with their families.There is is just a slight chance it could be Daisy's son born 1935 but it looks as if he has not died yet.The families mentioned did not travel far either.Occupation of one father was a train driver.Thats daisy's family.
The Higginbottom family are a slight possibility as one lady was a cooper.And the father was a cooper occ. but theey did not travel far either.They are all easily accessable on Ancestry aswell which doe not bode well with this family
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I have looked on the 1939 Register and there is no Jesse Holland listed born 1934 +/-5 years. Until evidence is found, we have to assume he is still alive, therefore he cannot be discussed on Rootschat.
Added: If born between 1930 and 1940 at the time of the 1939 Register he would be 9 years old or younger, so should be with parents. I have looked through the deaths registered on the GRO and FreeBMD from 1934-2023. There is nothing with a 1930-40 birth date. The closest being; Death: Jesse Holland . born 1921 . Q1/1993 . Stoke on Trent (7371a) Reg A52f . Entry Number 87
Having found nothing, it would seem he is still alive.
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My husband born 1851 remembers meeting him and 3 if his children in 1956.2 girls and a boy.If the youngest child was born to him in 1951 and he was 20 himself that would make him born 1931 which corresponds to the newspaper him being 18 in 1949?I do know he was not with his Birth family for long but with a priscilla Holland who was with Bill Holland.She is not found in 1839 either but we were close to her up until her death and know that her mother was Teannie Hughes who had a son Jesse who is not this one.Teannies son was properly a cousin.A Michael Holland was definitely his cousin and was born 1921.I realise his birthdate must be around the early 1930'S now because of the age if his children in 1956.
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He is definitely dead as is his wife and they are buried somewhere near Wisbech.
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I have searched again. The closest death that corresponds to a birth of 1931 is the 1921 birth in Stoke on Trent.
As he died in the Wisbech area, this death might be of interest.
Jesse Holland . born 1910 . age 98
Death: Q4/2008 In Kings Lynn (6371a) Reg 1a006 Entry Number 33
Could this Jesse be his father?
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I will look this one up on ancestry and see if he us A Romany Gypsy then follow through.
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Could well be.I am now fairly sure he was born 1931 because of his children's ages in the1950's.I will look into this tomorrow.Thank you.
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I don’t understand how he was born c.1931 and has died, why there is no death registration. As Jesse Holland born 1910, died in 2008 aged 98, with no death fitting a 1931 birth, could there be a mix-up between father and son? If Jesse Snr was 21 when his son was born, by 2008 the son would be 77 years old, and a good age. If you cannot find anything on a paid site, like a grave or obituary, it might be worth seeing who registered the death. As Jesse Holland died in Wisbech, the registration district by 2008 was King’s Lynn. It seems too much of a coincidence for there not to be a link.
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I have been tied up today so could not check it out.It does seem very possible though now.If I could find some sort of connection to him with Dambrass Stevens/Loveridge who changed her Christian name to Doreen even maybe buried with this one.I believe she was born 1932 and began having children late 1940s and through the 1950s .I have the children's names but I cannot mention them as still alive.I am helping a man who is the grandson of Jesse but has had no contact with his father of grandfather who is Jesse whom I have now been told used surnames Holland,Davis,and Holland Davis.
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I have found Jesse's wife.Known as Dambrass or Doreen or as her birth records Danboros.She is with her mother Nellie known as Neenie.Cannot be sure her dad is Cornelius maybe loveridge but he died in 1928 as far as I gather so far.They are Romany gypsies and changed their names all the time.
But in the 1939 cencus she is with her mother who was born 1901.Her name on the cencus is Danboros Davies born 2nd qtr in 1932.Her mothers maiden name is Stevens.Danboros and she was born Stourbridge Staffordshire.That is definately her birth but in 1939 she may be known as Doreen?
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Danboros Davies
Registration Date Apr 1932
[May 1932]
[Jun 1932]
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Stourbridge
Inferred County Staffordshire
Mother's Maiden Name Stevens
Volume Number 6c
Page number 88 Sorry Stourbridge Staffordshire
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Right I have made some headway and pleased to find I can add them to my tree as they are closely related to my husband.Jesse Holland was definately born to Wiilam holland had a unknown dalliance with a as of now unknown woman who died in childbirth likely 1931 but could be any date between 1930 and 1938,William Holland known as Bill later married?Priscilla Benham with whom he had 4 chldren who I know the names of but are all now dead.These children were Jesse's half siblings.The family stayed mainly in Somerset area but lived in tents on the Hills quite often the Quantock Hills.Jessie/Jess/jesse married Danboros Davis who was born in Stourbridge in 1932 to Nellie Stevens.As Danboros liked to be near her family and although they made trips to Somerset they preferred the Wisbech area and that is the area i think they will have been buried.Now Jesse Holland born I think 1931 when he jumped the broom to be with Danboros Davis he changed his name to outwit the benefit folks so as to work and claim money.He had 10 children and used the name Jesse Holland Davis.definately come the 1990.s they stayed in the Wisbech area proberly on Gypsy sites.In about 1960 one of his children married into the buckley family.How apart from Danboros who I have found a birth for can the two of them completely stayed in the dark??We heard awhile back they were both dead and are always talked about in the past tense.I now know All Danboros's family pre 1932 and I know Jesse's dad Who by the way died 1959 of TB and I know Jesse's Fathers history and his children now dead and his grandchildren that live near me.I just want desperately to find his birth and birth mother who died at his birth and where he was in the 1939 cencus and when he died and hopefully where he is buried.Please,please can anyone help to fill in this gap in my tree.?
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I have just found this lady who died in childbirth and I think she was mentioned earlier on in this post
Detail Source
Name Florence Holland
Maiden Name higginbottom
Birth Date 1905
Death Date 5 Feb 1934
Death Place Glossop, High Peak Borough, Derbyshire, England
Cemetery Glossop Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place Glossop, High Peak Borough, Derbyshire, England
Has Bio? N
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can anyone help me disprove this as Jesse's mother?
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Marriage: Jesse Holland . Florence Higginbottom
Oct-Dec 1927 . Glossop, Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 2125
Birth: Jesse Holland
Jan-Mar 1934 . Glossop, Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 1214
Burial: Florence Higginbottom Holland
05 Feb 1934 . Birth: 1905
Glossop Cemetery, High Peak Borough, Derbyshire
Plot info: C of E, Grave 4744
There was a birth:
Death: Florence E Holland . 4 (Est 1932)
1936 . Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 874
This seems to be their daughter who died two years after her mother.
The evidence says a Jesse was the son of Jesse Holland and Florence Higginbotham, it does not follow this is the one you are looking for, as I have not found the move from Derbyshire to Lincolnshire/Cambridgeshire. They could be named in Electoral Registers, but at home I cannot access them.
Could this be a second/third marriage?
Marriage: Jesse Holland . Elsie M Holman
Jan-Mar 1984 . Fenland, Cambridgeshire . Volume 9 . Page 924
If born 1931/4, he would be 53/50.
The issue is not being able to find a death for Jesse as Holland and/or Davies.
Birth: Danboros Davies . mmn Stevens
Apr-Jun 1932 . Stourbridge, Worcestershire . Volume 6C . Page 88
Apart from a birth I cannot find anything else.
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On the 1939 Register 30 Edward Street, Glossop
Jesse Holland b.1909 and Ivy Holland b.1908
Marion Holland b.1928 and Marlene Holland b.1937
This seems the right family, so Jesse Jnr. might be a redacted entry if they are unaware of his death.
Soon after Florence dies Jesse married Ivy.
Marriage: Jesse Holland . Ivy Eborall
Jul-Sep 1934 . Stockport . Volume 8a . Page 405
Birth: Marian Holland . mmn Higginbottom
Jan-Mar 1928 . Glossop . Volume 7b . Page 1431
Birth: Eileen Holland . mmn Higginbottom
Jul-Sep 1929 . Glossop . Volume 7b .Page 1327
Where was Eileen in 1939, had she died?
The only death that fits age with the dates:
Death: Eileen Holland . 1
Jan-Mar 1930 . Edmonton . Volume 3a . Page 721
While with Ivy these seem to be the children:
Birth: Marlene Holland . mmn Eborall
Jan-Mar 1938 . Manchester N . Volume 8d . Page 482
Birth: Jennifer A Holland . mmn Eborall
Jul-Sep 1943 . Macclesfield . Volume 8a . Page 243
Birth: Christine E Holland. mmn Eborall
Jul-Sep 1946 . Manchester . Volume 10e . Page 95
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Jesse born 1932 definitely his father was William Holland known as Bill.So the other ones you have found are not Jesse's father.I know Bill was his dad now as old Gypsied who live near me knew him and his later wife Priscilla Benham with whom he had 4 children all now dead but I know their kids.There us now positive evidence for Bill being Jesse father.As regards Florence Higgenbittom their are many with that name on ancestry and in very small trees non of which make sense.But the one I found has a birth no marriage and died the same week as Jesse Holland was born in 1934.They were Gypsies and travelled Somerset Dorset, Wisbech and Staffordshire. THAT is other members of Bill Hollands family.Still trying to find absolute proof of this Jesse of course.But proof of Bill Holland being his father has now been confirmed.
.
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Sorry Jesse born 1934 not 1832.
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I could not find a marriage, for William Holland and Priscilla Benham, so I assume it was not official.
This could be Priscilla, which would explain why he move to that area.
Birth: Rhoda Priscilla Banham. mmn Ransom
Jan-Mar 1905 . Ely, Cambridgeshire . Volume 3B . Page 491
These could be their 4 children:
Birth: William Holland . mmn Benham
Oct-Dec 1942 . Ledbury . Volume 6a . Page 823
Birth: Angelina Holland . mmn Benham
Jul-Sep 1943 . Ledbury . Volume 6a . Page 824
Birth: Brian A Holland . mmn Bentham
Apr-Jun 1952 . Manchester. Volume 10e . Page 613
Birth: Trevor Holland . mmn Benham
Apr-Jun 1955 . Taunton . Volume 7c . Page 200
I am not sure about the Manchester birth, but possible if they were travellers.
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William,angelina,and Trevor are correct but Brian is not.The other child was Maureen.But sadly this is not the right Priscillia as she died in 2016 I think your right,no marriage they jumped the broom.I will look at my tree in a minute
And tell you who her dad was but her mum was called Teannie.
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Yes Priscilla Benham was born 1922 and died 2015.Her father Ben Benham and her mum Teannie Hughes born 1887.The family travelled far and wide and avoided the cencus,marriage and anything none Gypsy.My husband,s family stopped with them in Somerset,Dorset,Warwickshire and goodness knows where else.We know the Gypsy grapevine quite well! and heard either Rabbits or Jesse died 1998 and the other around 2012.They are always referred to in the past tense.Jesse had 10 children and they were registered but under many different surnames.Jesse and Danboros are definitely buried somewhere around Wisbech but I cannot for the life of me understand why I cannot find deaths for them.
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Actually Priscilla did marry in 1964 after Bill Holland died very young.There is a record of that
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I am confused. When was Jesse born?
Between 1932 and 1934 the only Jesse Holland registered is in 1934 mmn Higginbottom at Glossop. Jesse might be his middle name, but only initials tend to be given.
From what you offered, I looked 1996 to 2014 and the only death of interest
Jesse Holland . born 1910
Q4/2008 . Kings Lynn (6371a) . Reg 1a006 . Entry Number 33
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I do not know who you refer to as Rabbits.
These are the only births on the GRO searching 1931-1935 with Jesse being first or middle name. I also checked for a female if a mistake had been made and found nothing. Both found are 1934.
Jesse Holland . mmn / (Higgingbottom) Jan-Mar 1934 . Glossop . Volume 07b . Page 1214 . Occasional Copy: A (Occasional Copy suggests there is another version usually under the mother’s name if the registrar thought the parents were not married. No mmn was recorded and there is no registration under Higgingbottom.
Jesse Francis Hollands . mmn / ( Hunt) . Oct-Dec 1934 . Rochford . Volume 04a . Page 1076
The database of FreeBMD names Higgingbottom and Hunt, so why do the GRO not include it?)
I assume these listings are correct.
Death: William Holland . 54
Jan-Mar 1961 . Grantham . Volume 3b . Page 109
Marriage: Henry Hughes . Priscilla Holland
Apr-Jun 1964 . Poole . Volume 7c . Page 1492
Birth: Priscilla Benham . mmn Hughes
Jan-Mar 1922 . Mere . Volume 5a . Page 325
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Yes he was born Glossop 1834.I don't think his mum was a traveller but we do know of some Higginbottom's that lived Gypsy life to a certain extent.
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Although Florence was not married as she died having Jesse we presume Bill registered the baby Holland and the mother as Holland as well.We knew his mother died in childbirth with him and that is the only possible Jesse Holland.I will check my tree later but that is not the our Jesse born 1910.He is in the tree I know buy cannot remember who is family are.Just on my smart phone at the moment.Goodness knows how I wrote rabbits,it should be Danboros his wife.
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Florence Higginbottom I am referring to as hus mum.
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The 1939 Register says Jesse Holland is head of the family not William at 30 Edward Street, Glossop. I assume it was William using the name Jesse. That had confused me. Jesse Holland b.1909 and Ivy Holland b.1908 with children Marion Holland b.1928 and Marlene Holland b.1937. I cannot see the original page, but Jesse must still be redacted. Without proof of death, it will remain closed, and at present no one can find the death.
As William died young, who is Jesse Holland . born 1910?
Q4/2008 . Kings Lynn (6371a) . Reg 1a006 . Entry Number 33
It is the right name and area, but 24 years out to be Jesse, though I am aware of travellers adding 20 years to make it sound closer to 100. Who registered that death?
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I am really busy at the moment but will get on the lap top tomorrow.I know later generations of this family and none of them even now can read or write properly or know How old they are.One twin has 3 birth certs in her possession all different dates but her twin who was born first has 1 birth cert but it is a whole month later then that of his twin.I will need to follow if I can the 1910 birth to see if it could be Jesse but if there is a birth for 1910 I will know it is not him.At the moment I am crawling cemeteries looking for Jesse and his wife.There are a lot of Florence Higginbottoms but the one I found had not married anyone and died in childbirth with Jesse.I knew his half siblings who are now all dead even though they were a lot younger then him.Jesse also travelled a lot round the west country only returning to the Midlands in the 1990's.
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Around 1910 +/- 2 years, there are two births named Jesse Holland
1909 in Rochdale mmn Hearsum
1910 in Basford mmn Richards
The 2008 burial could be the Basford Jesse.
Looking for William, he seems to have been born in Lancashire with several Holland/Hughes marriages. These two births look interesting:
William Holland . mmn Hughes
Apr-Jun 1909 . Burnley . Volume 08e . Page 223
William James Holland . mmn Hughes
Jan-Mar 1909 . Oldham . Volume 08d . Page 62
Looking in the 1911 census the only Jesse in Rochdale I found was recorded as female and Jessie.
William Holland, Burnley I could not find.
William James Holland, Oldham Father: William Edward Holland, rope manufacturer born Stockport. Mother: Sarah Jane Holland (Hughes) born Ince Lancashire. Brother John b.1911, sister Ada b.1907.
Marriage: Jesse Holland . Florence Higginbottom
Oct-Dec 1927 . Glossop, Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 2125
Birth: Jesse Holland
Jan-Mar 1934 . Glossop, Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 1214
Burial: Florence Higginbottom Holland . Birth: 1905 . 05 Feb 1934 . Glossop Cemetery, High Peak Borough, Derbyshire . Plot info: C of E, Grave 4744
There was a birth before Jesse:
Death: Florence E Holland . 4 (Est 1932)
1936 . Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 874
This seems to be their daughter who died two years after her mother.
There were also two other daughters.
The deaths for a Jesse Holland from 1965 to 2023
Jesse Holland . born 1910 died Q4/2008 in Kings Lynn
Jesse Holland . born 1909 died Q2/1991 in Tameside
Jesse Holland . born 1921 died Q1/1993 Stoke on Trent
None match a 1934 birth. There were a few others, but too far away. Did he change his name? If he has died, there must be a death registration somewhere, and if it is none of the above, the registration must be under a different name.
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William's perants were James Holland and Angelina Orchard that is definitely.William Holland definitely had a son born out of marriage who was Jesse Holland born 1834.zThere is no marriage to the Florence Higginbottom I found but as she died in child birth the child was named Jesse Holland mothers maiden name Holland which we know as wrong.I cannot find the Jesse born 1910 would need to find more about his life to see if my Jesse changed his birth date.They were a very uneducated family and in the early days travelled Glossop where Jesse met Danboros but then they were in Somerset,Dorset Wiltshire and in the 1970 's definitely in Somerset.They travelled far and wide but wanted to end their days on a site near Wisbech during the 90's after which they dud not travel far.Jesse hated gaujos and avoided census ect like the plague.In the 1850's he was using the surname Davis but by the 90's he was Jesse Holland Davis!He would not have known how old he was.His mother died at birth and his dad died when he was 35 years old but I doubt he stopped much with his dad has he had Tb and was a very bad tempered man.His half siblings all settled in Somerset mainly Bridgwater.All dead now.He wanted to settle in the 90's near his wives family near Wisbech.I am wondering if he got age wrong and dud his family thing he was born 1910 getting mixed up with his dad.I just do not know.zThere should be a death for Danboros aswell.As you say they must have death certs somewhere.This is turning out to be very difficult to piece together.
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In my last post I offered the marriage:
Marriage: Jesse Holland . Florence Higginbottom
Oct-Dec 1927 . Glossop, Derbyshire . Volume 7B . Page 2125
I will look for a death under Davis/Davies.
There will be a death registration somewhere, but probably not under Holland.
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I have found them.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/199315064/william-henry-holland (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/199315064/william-henry-holland)
William Henry “Jessie” Holland
Loving husband, father and grandfather.
Birth: 11 Mar 1932 . Death: 27 Jun 2011 (aged 79)
Burial: Kirkley Cemetery . Lowestoft, Waveney District, Suffolk, England
I think it is confirmed as Doreen Davis 14.09.26 – 10.06.2013 is buried with him
For both the dates are wrong.
There are photos of both and the gravestone.
Doreen’s page is:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/199315147/doreen-davis (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/199315147/doreen-davis)
ADDED: There is a birth registration in the next quarter Apr-Jun 1932
William Henry Holland . mmn Goodwin
Apr-Jun 1932 . Newcastle under Lyme . Volume 06B . Page 87
No Jesse/Jessie registered that year.
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Thank you so so much.Thats another brick wall solved.You have been so very very helpful.Thank you once again