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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: marrle on Sunday 26 January 25 11:28 GMT (UK)
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I am helping a friend look for his family currently I have the following :
John Hess born c 1847 Father John but don't seem able to go any further back with the family can anyone help please,
I know John c 1847 married Mary Quinn and have found 6 children born to the couple please do not look for them as one of the children I can follow to the UK.
Thanks Margie
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John Hess born c 1847 Father John but don't seem able to go any further back with the family can anyone help please,
I know John c 1847 married Mary Quinn
If you have their marriage, what is
- John's occupation?
- His father's name and occupation?
- Where were they married?
- Their religion?
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John Hess born c 1847 Father John but don't seem able to go any further back with the family can anyone help please,
I know John c 1847 married Mary Quinn
If you have their marriage, what is
- John's occupation?
- His father's name and occupation?
- Where were they married?
- Their religion?
Carman
John Hess - Carman
Wexford Registrar's Office
Protestant + Catholic?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11491/8224373.pdf
19 February 1867
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To answer my own questions, John Hess and Mary Quinn were married in the registry office in Wexford on 19/2/1867
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11491/8224373.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11491/8224373.pdf)
He was a carman, as was his father, another John Hess.
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May not have been born 1847, as Mary Hess daughter of John Hess and Judy Cullen was baptized in Wexford 12/4/1847
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/129/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/129/mode/1up)
May have been his parents.
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Baptism William Hess - 1844
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138?locale=en#page/77/mode/1up
Marriage -William Hess - father John, a Carman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11414/8192451.pdf
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Marriage of Jacob Hess, son of John, in 1864, also in registry office.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11630/8282292.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11630/8282292.pdf)
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The surname of Hess/Hesse sounds German.
I wonder if John's father was born abroad?
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I know John c 1847 married Mary Quinn and have found 6 children born to the couple please do not look for them as one of the children I can follow to the UK.
Looks like they had at least 7 children to me.
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Given that he had two daughters named Julia, seems chances are high that he was son of John Hess and Julia/Judith Cullen
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William Hess baptized Wexford 31/1/1844, son of John Hess and Judith Cullen
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/77/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/77/mode/1up)
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Death of John Hess, age 48, in 1899, a laborer and widower. Note he was also a laborer on 1881 of his daughter Julia.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05787/4636670.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05787/4636670.pdf)
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Death of Johanna Hess in 1881, aged 77, a widow. Presumed mother of John
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06447/4852980.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06447/4852980.pdf)
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John Hess died 1870, aged 76, in Wexford. Copy not available on IrishGenealogy site (yet).
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Marriage of Jane Hess, daughter of John, 1852.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09440/5419998.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09440/5419998.pdf)
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There are various newspaper snippets re some Hess folk.
1866 - John Hess, carman ‘disturbers of the peace’
This seems relevant in view of previous findings
February 1867
John Hess and Judith Hess v John Hess re assaults
There should be a death then for Judith Hess
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I should read back more often - Johanna Hess death looks favourable.
Death of Johanna Hess in 1881, aged 77, a widow. Presumed mother of John
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06447/4852980.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06447/4852980.pdf)
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There are baptisms for several other children of John Hess and Judy/Judith Cullen in Wexford in 1830s, but no John that I can see. But pretty clertain they are his parents.
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John Hess, listed as member of Wexford Temperance Union, in letter to papers dated 29/6/1842. (date of letter).
Appears in letter from inhabitants of John St, in 1854, seeking street lighting.
Court case for wages, 1861,
Donated 6d to Redmond memorial in 1865. The one now standing in Redmond alias Railway square.
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Marriage of Jacob Hess, son of John, in 1864, also in registry office.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11630/8282292.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11630/8282292.pdf)
George Hess (son of Jacob) married Eliza Walsh - 17 October 1896. One of the witnesses was John Hess (brother?).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10510/5828486.pdf
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George Hess in 1901 census
House 1 in Rathdowney (Rosslare, Wexford)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Rosslare/Rathdowney/1802571/
Eliza Hess - 1901 census
House 4 in Woodtown (Rosslare, Wexford)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Rosslare/Woodtown/1802560/
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Proof that John was son of John and Judith:
Piece entitled "A Bad Boy" in Wexford People of 18/11/1866, wherein John and Judith Hess summoned their son John for assaulting them. He begged their pardon.
BUT - Charged again for like offense, February 1867.
1870 - charged with dumping manure in Hill St.
Many newspaper reports.
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George Hesse born 2 October 1896 at Rosslare. MMN Walshe
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02147/1815013.pdf
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1890 - A John Hess charged with cruelly abandoning daughter Mary without food or lodging.
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Hess family - 1911 census
House 6 in Killiane, Little (Drinagh, Wexford)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Drinagh/Killiane__Little/695610/
Elizabeth Hess died 12 December 1911. #79
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05371/4498153.pdf
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Lots of info there for marrie. I hope we haven’t repeated too much of what is already known.
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Lots of info there for marrue. I hope we haven’t repeated too much of what is already known.
marrle was online here at 16:29 and has yet to reply.
Adding another-
George Hess re-married on 15 November 1915 to Maria Merrinan.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09833/5570771.pdf
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Oh so sorry for my late reply yes I did have a quick look but got caught up with family who have just arrived from the states. I feel as though I was being told off for not answering right away that was not my intention at all.
I thank everyone for the information you have provided but might take a few days to look through it all as I am sure my friend will have lots more questions to ask if that's ok.
Best Wishes Margie
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I feel as though I was being told off for not answering right away that was not my intention at all.
No, you weren't being told off Margie.
We look forward to helping you answer the questions that you may raise.
Happy reading! ;D
KG
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Griffith's Valuation of 1853 shows only a single Hess family in all of Co. Wexford - John Hess in John St, Wexford. Had a very substantial house, and small garden. House valued at 6-15-0 £-s-d, entire property at 7-0-0 £-s-d.
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Have to say, Wexflyer - you have made some quite amazing finds! I am in awe.
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Have to say, Wexflyer - you have made some quite amazing finds! I am in awe.
;D Thank you, but others are just good and also contributed. The Irish records are quite straightforward once you know what is left, and newspaper archive access helps a lot for those who made it into the papers. My families tended to be too quiet!
Another point is their surname seems to have been unique in Ireland - makes searching for them simple, as all records with the name relate to them.
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Calendar entry for Jacob Hess, who died in 1909, coachman. Only will calendar entry I found anywhere in Ireland for Hess.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014916/005014916_00140.pdf (http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014916/005014916_00140.pdf)
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Valuation Office record for John Hess' property in John St. 20-March-1846.
Says much of building let to weekly tenants. Built by tenant 12 years before, but in bad condition.
Includes bake house and shop - says baker and huxter? (meaning huckster?). Perhaps run by the wife?
Also stable - for his horses as a carman.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007246916_00256.pdf (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007246916_00256.pdf)
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Carman
John Hess - Carman
Marriage in Wexford Registrar's Office
Protestant + Catholic?
I would tend to agree that there must be some Protestant aspect.
But John senior's children were baptized Catholic - would not be surprised if they were also baptized Protestant, as an each-way bet!
Also consider the marriages we found for John senior's children - 1 CofI, 2 Registry Office, 1 Catholic.
Very catholic in their tastes (small "c").
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John Hess senior's son William was a sailor. Many, many records for him in the crew lists
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tm4/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tm4/)
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Here is a very old thread re the name with a couple of more recent posts - Wexflyer features
:)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=177909.0
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Calendar entry for Jacob Hess, who died in 1909, coachman. Only will calendar entry I found anywhere in Ireland for Hess.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014916/005014916_00140.pdf (http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014916/005014916_00140.pdf)
Ellen Hess (widow of Jacob Hess) died in 1930 aged 93 yrs at Rathdowney, Rosslare. Her son John Hess was the informant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1930/04912/4332607.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/forth/ballybrennan/rosslare/rathdowney/
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Here is a very old thread re the name with a couple of more recent posts - Wexflyer features
:)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=177909.0
Thanks for finding that - had completely forgotten!
Note that the three Christian names mentioned there for Hess family members from Old Ross recur in the Wexford family - namely John, Jacob and William.
Given the rarity of the surname, seems likely that John Hess senior was originally from Old Ross. The time scales also fit.
Some checks on Old Ross:
- No one of that surname there in 1826 tythe survey
- Guidebooks say CofI parish records for Old Ross lost, but also to see New Ross, where records are extant from 1760s.
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Link for Old Ross civil parish
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/oldross/ (https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/oldross/)
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Marriage of Jane Hess, daughter of John, 1852.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09440/5419998.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09440/5419998.pdf)
Although this was a CofI marriage, a daughter, Elizabeth Nicholson was baptized Catholic in Wexford on 26/2/1855
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634139#page/47/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634139#page/47/mode/1up)
The family seemed to play all angles!
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Marriage of Jane Hess, daughter of John, 1852.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09440/5419998.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09440/5419998.pdf)
Although this was a CofI marriage, a daughter, Elizabeth Nicholson was baptized Catholic in Wexford on 26/2/1855
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634139#page/47/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634139#page/47/mode/1up)
The family seemed to play all angles!
Being careful as you never know who will be on duty at the Pearly Gates when you arrive! ;D
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George Hess died 1937.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1937/04778/4282386.pdf
Maria Hess (late of Rosslare Strand and a spinster) died 1957.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1957/04395/4143400.pdf
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What can i say I am amazed at all the information you have found thank everyone will be busy for the rest of the week with family but will keep looking if anything else appears
Going to have a look at the old thread before we go out
Thanks Margie
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Since Monday I have come across the following information from Anc... and Family Search It would appear that John Hess and Judith Cullen had 6 children?? might be more.
A john Hess died age 76 in 1870 birth c 1794 is this the :
Joannem Hess Father Joannis Hess who married Brigida Bagley July 1813 Cahir County Tipperary which would tie in nicely with John Hess above born c 1815 what does everyone think //
thanks Margie
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Since Monday I have come across the following information from Anc... and Family Search It would appear that John Hess and Judith Cullen had 6 children?? might be more.
I posted earlier in reply No. 8 that I believe I counted at least 7 children. But I have not rechecked.
Edit: Actually it is John Junior and Mary Quinn who may have had 7 children.
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A john Hess died age 76 in 1870 birth c 1794 is this the :
Joannem Hess Father Joannis Hess who married Brigida Bagley July 1813 Cahir County Tipperary which would tie in nicely with John Hess above born c 1815 what does everyone think //
thanks Margie
While the John Hess who died in Wexford aged 76 is pretty certain to be your man, I am also pretty certain that he is not the John Hess who married in Cahir in 1813.
- Wrong place, and
- Wrong wife. He was married to Judith Cullen.
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Joannem Hess Father Joannis Hess who married Brigida Bagley July 1813 Cahir County Tipperary which would tie in nicely with John Hess above born c 1815 what does everyone think //
thanks Margie
You don't specify which denomination, but there is no such marriage in the Catholic registers for Cahir in July 1813. Note that the use of Latin for the Christian names strongly suggests that it is a Catholic record - if it exists
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632132?locale=en#page/95/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632132?locale=en#page/95/mode/1up)
It occurs to me that the mention of a father suggests that this might be a baptism record, instead of a marriage. But there is no such baptism either in July 1813, as far as I can see.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632133?locale=en#page/40/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632133?locale=en#page/40/mode/1up)
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Joannem Hess Father Joannis Hess who married Brigida Bagley July 1813 Cahir County Tipperary which would tie in nicely with John Hess above born c 1815 what does everyone think //
thanks Margie
OK, I see what has happened. Usual junk Ancestry transcription?
John Ahearn was baptized in Cahir on 2 August 1813, son of John Ahearn and Bridget Begley.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632133?locale=en#page/41/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632133?locale=en#page/41/mode/1up)
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A john Hess died age 76 in 1870 birth c 1794 is this the :
Joannem Hess Father Joannis Hess who married Brigida Bagley July 1813 Cahir County Tipperary which would tie in nicely with John Hess above born c 1815
Apart from the fact that there was no such marriage, I am perplexed as to who is the "John Hess above born c 1815"??
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Ok I am perplexed also I am in my late 70,s sometimes find it difficult to grasp the information you all have found for me but will try and explain where I am coming from :
Going back to my original post we know John Hess married Mary Quinn 1867 it says full age usually reckoning on John being 20 when he married, so is this the John who died in Wexford in 1899 age 48 birth c 1851??
Back a generation to the John Hess & Judy Cullen the first birth Ive found is Edward 1835 others followed and a John born 1841 ?? but who was he ??
So the John Hess who married Judy if Edward was the first child and they married c 1835 I would presume he was born c 1815
However it still does not explain who John Hess died 1870 age 76 birth c1794 was unless i am missing something hope all this make sense,
Thanks Margie
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Going back to my original post we know John Hess married Mary Quinn 1867 it says full age usually reckoning on John being 20 when he married, so is this the John who died in Wexford in 1899 age 48 birth c 1851??
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Full age in Ireland was until relatively recently considered to be 21 years. So to claim full age you had to be at least 21 years.
So looking at a marriage in 1867 full age would mean a person being born at least 21 years before. So in this case 1846. So the John who died in Wexford with a possible birthdate of 1851 can really only be considered a might be/possibly be at this stage.
You can do more checking by looking at birth certificates of children, marriage certificates possibly, death certificates of children, wife or close relaaltives so you can work out when he was last carrying out these civil duties. You can look at the death certificates to see what he and relatives died from. Pthsisis Phthisis or TB can kill regardless of age, also influenza/bronchitis. If he died from TB and children or close relatives also died around then then this may be a good find. Also check to see who reported the death.
On the other side of this we know that back in those days with low literacy levels etc that birthdays etc were not considered as important to celebrate as nowadays. This all changed when the Old Age Pensions came in and there was a scramble to establish births by searches of baptisms and by looking at what are now census fragments.
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As to what to do now.
I think you could go back to doing a staged, step by step process backwards from you or you nearest ancestor that you have fully established the birth, marriage and death dates for. Say your grandparents
From records try to find the BDM dates for the parents, also BDM dates for siblings. Doing it this way means you don't miss out on clues such as naming patterns, occupation changes or townland or country changes.
Working from a distant ancestor down to you of course can be done but in my experience takes a bit more work and nous to do.
So I would put aside for now trying to work out if this or that far distant person might be an ancestor until you have done the ground work to establish a stepping back point and then work carefully back. You may meet these people on the way back or you may not...or you might find, like I have for one ancestor a gap of a generation.....
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Marriage of Elizabeth Hess and James Booth in 1892
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10628/5872257.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10628/5872257.pdf)
I have posted this as she was:
- A daughter of John Hess Junior, and was the informant when he died in 1899, and
- John Hess was reported to be a docker. When he married in 1867 he was a carman.
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John Hess Junior was born 16th Jul 1841, and baptized 22 July, in Wexford, the son of John Hess Senior and Joana Cullen.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/40/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634138#page/40/mode/1up)
This is the John Jess who married Mary Quinn in 1867, when he was 25 years old.
He died in 1899, when he was actually 58 years old, rather than the 48 stated on his death registration.
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These are the children I see for John Hess senior and Judith/Judy/Joanna Culen:
- Edward 1835
- Jacob 1838
- John 1841
- William 1844
- Mary 1847
Note that Judith, Judy and Joanna, which appear in the registers, are all equivalent.
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So the John Hess who married Judy if Edward was the first child and they married c 1835 I would presume he was born c 1815
However it still does not explain who John Hess died 1870 age 76 birth c1794 was unless i am missing something hope all this make sense,
You twice stated you assume a marriage age of 20. That is simply not a good assumption to make. Usual age at marriage was considerably higher.
The John Hess who married Judy/Judith/Johanna Cullen is the John Hess who died in John St. Wexford, 14th September 1870, aged 76, laborer. That is, born ca. 1796.
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Going back to my original post we know John Hess married Mary Quinn 1867 it says full age usually reckoning on John being 20 when he married, so is this the John who died in Wexford in 1899 age 48 birth c 1851??
Back a generation to the John Hess & Judy Cullen the first birth Ive found is Edward 1835 others followed and a John born 1841 ?? but who was he ??
Again, assuming a marriage age of 20 is a very poor assumption. One contradicted by his 1867 marriage registration, which says "full age". The John Hess who married Mary Quinn in 1867 is the John Hess junior, born to John Hess senior and Judy Cullen in 1841. He died in Wexford in 1899, aged 58, though his death registration mistakenly stated 48.
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Thank you for all your feed back its much appreciated think I might regret having said I would do this tree for a friend much better luck with this family than my own who hailed from Ireland
So we now need to find where John Hesse Snr was born ?? c 1796.
Best Wishes Margie.
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Hate to say this again, but it is a Germanic surname!
https://surnamedb.com/surname/hesse
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So we now need to find where John Hesse Snr was born ?? c 1796.
This has already been addressed (read back) - most probably Old Ross.
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Hate to say this again, but it is a Germanic surname!
https://surnamedb.com/surname/hesse
Yes, that is understood. But we have gone beyond that - the family was apparently of Palatine extraction.
As an aside, there is a famous Irish song Iníon an Phailitínigh
Here is a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEaeBeJUdcU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEaeBeJUdcU)
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So sorry - I thought I had followed this thread - but can't recall any 'Palatine' mention (my age related brain shrinkage!)
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So sorry - I thought I had followed this thread - but can't recall any 'Palatine' mention (my age related brain shrinkage!)
The mention of Palatines was indirect, you had to go down the byways!
In reply No. 36 Heywood linked to a previous thread about a Hess family from Old Ross, Co. Wexford - a Palatine family. Here is a link for Heywood's post, containing that link
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888979.msg7624862#msg7624862 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888979.msg7624862#msg7624862)
In reply No. 38 I then asserted that the similarity of family names and timescale made it likely that the John Hess senior of this thread was also from Old Ross.
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Perhaps I should add:
In addition to the Palatine colony (as they were called) in Old Ross, there was another outside Gorey, on the Ram estate.