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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: weenie on Friday 24 January 25 18:10 GMT (UK)
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Evening all,
so my brick wall needs some more chipping at if you can all be so kind in helping me.
i have posted before and think i need a new thread as i have more updates..
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=823258.msg6864183#msg6864183
(hope the link works)
so I now know that Elizabeth Jones middle name is Louisa - its on the burial record - 1st time ive come across the middle name.
Elizabeth Jones b 1830 Berhsam?. married John Smith - but never found marriage cert however possible her sister Frances married John Smith in 1859 and died in childbirth , hence Elizabeth became John Smith "wife".
i have every document right up to me and my siblings from Elizabeth Louisa Jones- apart from marriage. her children and their lines etc.
now I subscribe to Full Ancestry including pro, My Heritage and also FindMyPast.
DNA i manage for my are myself, my full brother, my half brother, half brothers daughter (my niece) , and have access to my 2nd cousins DNA all uploaded to MH apart from 2nd cousins.
now Elizabeth Jones husband - John Smith parents. between us confirmed by Ancestry DNA and connected to me is 7.
now Elizabeth Louisa Jones father presuming from Frances marriage states John Jones labourer.
now my full brother and I on Ancestry DNA matches have this 1 DNA match to her paternal line - through lines - i know how it works. suggests Lewis Jones is the connection and that John jones father is Robert Jones and his dad is Lewis Jones connecting us. - however i cannot confirm those links beyond John to Lewis.
however my half brother has a match also suggesting the same Lewis but totally different person. - and its showing on maternal side - so not our side- although yes ive come across that before been wrong side. but i have managed to connect him to us, with just John and Robert via his Sister Mary Jones connected to Lewis Jones. but floating as unverified.
now on MH all 3 of us plus my half niece all have the DNA match to this 1 DNA (Lewis connection) but match both her parents and to cut a long story short i have connected 37 and counting DNA Matches to her maternal and 30 plus and counting to her paternal side! yes her parents match each other several times - i just cannot connect to me.
now quite alot of these do have shared matches with the John Smith parents i have confirmed. but still not linked direct to me. and some are from Elizabeth Louisa Jones and John Smith daughter line who is my next gt grandmother, and my gt grandfathers line.
So any help out who could be the correct Elizabeth Lousia Jones parents will be very greatly appriciated
many thanks
Weenie
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ive also forgot - because ive not linked yet- and the common ancestor bit has disappeared now - but
i have 5 other dna matches that all sit within the same common ancestor.Thomas Jones 1836 Wrexham, and this shows that his father as John Jones but different year they have 1791- i havew 1801
now it did show potential common ancestor as Ambrose Williams. which would tie in to previous post that i linked earlier John Jones and Elizabeth Williams - page 2 on comments.
and the only link i have to that is ..... the 1851 census John Jones 1801 Minera. wife Elizabeth Jones a fair few children including a frances and Elizabeth with correct birth years and then Nephew? Thomas Jones 1838 minera - which these people have as the connection.
however non of these 5 have shared match with my other 7 nor the one dna match suggested Lewis Jones as the common ancestor
many thanks Weenie
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Are you sure about the 1859 marriage. As far as I can see there isn't a match.
A John Smith married in Wrexham in 1859 but the other names don't include a Frances Jones.
No matches in Wrexham earlier.
A Frances Smith b sep qtr 1859 mmn Jones.
A Frances Smith d sep qtr 1859 aged 27.
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sorry it was cheshire marriages and marriage was 1858... hit wrong key
Weenie
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Do you have the marriage certificate to confirm the parents, Abode. Wittnesses etc.
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Yes i do
its saying too large dont know why but its on ancestry cheshire marriage and banns
John Smith Carpenter Wrexham Road age 24 father Samuel Smith Labourer -
Frances Jones 26 Wrexham road father John Jones Labourer
witnesses Martha Jones Thomas moore
weenie
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Are they living down Kings Mills. Abenbury in all census records. John is a wheelwright.
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yes Till John death in 1890 slipping on ice, Elizabeth is then living with her son Albert and his wife Mary after Alberts death in 1910.
then Elizabeth death is 7Feb 1917 at bates cottage, Elizabeth Selina Smith is informant her son Arthurs Wife. - Arthur and his wife have bates cottage marchwiel till 1945
Weenie
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Just looking at all the census places of birth for Elizabeth and she is inconsistent.
I see Martha Jones as a witness on the 1858 marriage, where does she fit in.
1851 Minera .,John Jones, all his children were born Minera which doesn't fit with Elizabeth.
I think the daughter Frances Jones married John Evans in Wrexham 1853. Both of Minera.
Father John Jones, smith.
I would be looking at more towards Wrexham.
Possibly ignore the last 1911 entry as Holt, she was an old lady by then and living with her daughter in law who I guess really doesn't know where Elizabeth was born.
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ok i may have misunderstood you -
ignor 1911 census?.
that is 100% confirmed my relation. through DNA , and other documents. Elizabeth Selina Smith definetly married Arthur Smith. and the death is correct for Elizabeth my gt gt grandmother
I can only confirm from Elizabeth with John Smith and her children. from 61 census- nothing beyond that. however
Thru Lines did have suggested Ambrose Williams as link to 8 DNA Matches- but it didnt sit right and it isnt showing now. those 8 dna matches i have all connected to Thomas Jones b1836 Wrexham married to Elizabeth Beard in 1860 west derby and then married to Margaret Campbell liverpool 1863 Liverpool. now they have the parents of Thomas as John Jones 1791 and Elizabeth Williams - Ambrose been the father of Elizabeth.
Havent a clue where Martha fits in.
Weenie
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I meant ignore that her place of birth may have been entered by daughter in law who didn't really know.
It's pretty sure that it's the right one.
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ahh right . yes thought i misunderstood
weenie
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ok bit of advice/opinion - just found this 1851 census today
ive never spotted this one before 1851 census. Frances Jones b1833 aged 18 servant at home ill health. it has John 1805 and Elizabeth b1807 and there is a brother thomas b1836 but no elizabeth 2 other possible siblings John and Sarah. however it says Pentre cottage 5 Abenbury Fechan.
now Elizabeth is with John Smith in 1871 at Cottage - i think no 5 Pentre Abenbury fechan!
also 1881 census Pentre for John and Elizabeth Smith and then 1891 for Elizaberh and children.
also i think i may found baptism 7 feb 1830 says Waggoner for John occupation. now i know it says Labourer on Frances marriage. but the 1851 census says ag lan waggoner ???
do you think this fits?.
Weenie
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Are you Rowena on Ancestry.
This 1851 certainly fits the area. Pentre Felin Newydd was a small area around the Red Lion in Abenbury, over the years shortened to Pentre. There was a forge at Abenbury for a very long time.
John Jones b 1805 Wrexham
Elizabeth J b Bala Merionethshire
Thomas J b 1836 Wrexham
Frances J b 1833 Wrexham
John J b 1845 Flintshire
Sarah J b 1848 Flintshire.
So there's only John and Sarah you could possibly find birth registration for, but where were they born.
I can't spot them in 1861 where there might be more details.
The border for Flintshire isn't far away if you are heading to Bangor on Dee, Maybe they moved around a bit.
In 1871 it could be the same John b Wrexham and Elizabeth b Bala in Eccleston Cheshire, there's a 3 month grandson Edwin A
(Archibald) Jones who could be illegitimate.
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I am yes.
i found that 1871 also. i think it may be Sarah child
that was my next task to find the births
thankyou
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Abenbury Fechan district 1.
If you go back to the 1861 census for John Smith and Elizabeth they are on page 3 of 8.
On 2 of 8 is Samuel Smith 57 b Holt and Sarah his wife 57 b Plymouth Devon.
On 5 of 8 is Elizabeth Jones 52 b Llanycil Merionethshire. Close to Bala.
John Jones 16 , Sarah Jones 13 both b Flintshire Abenbury Fechan, but that should be Denbighshire.
No sign of John in that district, but he is probably not far away.
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Thankyoi for this, i will look at them when Ancestry starts playing ball... man with pan again
weenie
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I think i found the baptisms all but Thomas 1836/1838
all st giles wrexham
i also tried the births for Sarah and John but it rules out
Birth registration for Sarah is not J qtr v27 pg 272 - f Peter m Jane Daniels
nor is it J qtr v27 pg304 m Jane Edwards
birth registration for john is not Dec Qtr vol 27 pg 274 thats Robert Jones Ellen Roberts
Weenie
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What is the abode given in baptisms.
I live local and know the area quite well.
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Johns baptism 16 march 1845 Kingsmill
Elizabeth 7 feb 1830 says Plas ???? - couldnt read it
Frances 22 April 1832 Broughton
Sarah 16 April 1848 Abenbury Fechan
Weenie
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Johns baptism 16 march 1845 Kingsmill
Elizabeth 7 feb 1830 says Plas ???? - couldnt read it
Frances 22 April 1832 Broughton
Sarah 16 April 1848 Abenbury Fechan
Weenie
Elizabeth looks like Eliza. Abode Plas Power . But John the father is a waggoner at that time.
Plas Power wasn't a place name as such, it was a large hall and estate.
There are still the Plas Power woods and the river Clywedog runs down to Kings Mills.
It's a well known walk here.
Broughton is higher up , the other side of Wrexham.
John and Sarah are both in the right area.
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I Came to conclusion, with the Waggoner part due to the 1851 census his occupation say ag lab waggoner
weenie
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/203943593/frances-smith
Frances Smith is buried in the old cemetery on Ruthin Road Wrexham. Unfortunately you can't see the full image but the "also" could be her son.
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transcripts of the grave.
Frances Smith (w/o John Smith of Kings Mills) died 1859
Frances Elizabeth Smith (d/o John & Frances) died Dec 11th 1859 aged 6 months
John Smith (husb/o Frances) died Jan 4th 1890 aged 55 years
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Wow thankyou , that confirms they are siblings Mary and Frances.
Weenie