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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: poeticgardener on Friday 24 January 25 05:08 GMT (UK)
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My ggrandfather was Darby Keogh born about 1810 and married to Ann Toomy. They had 8 children, including my great grandmother Catherine baptised 1836. She and her brother John came to Australia in 1862 on the ship Northumberland and had their deposit paid by their brother Patrick. I know Patrick was in the Irish constabulary before he migrated.
I would be grateful for any information on the Keogh or Toomy families of Ballymore Eustace.
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The village of Ballymore Eustace is actually in Co. Kildare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymore_Eustace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymore_Eustace)
The Catholic parish of Ballymore Eustace lies in both counties Kildare and Wicklow - close to half and half.
So, which Ballymore Eustace? Do you really know they were from the Wicklow portion, as opposed to Kildare?
Are we to presume they were Catholic - you don't mention religion?
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my great grandmother Catherine baptised 1836.
I don't see this - can you be more specific as to location and dates? Maybe reference the parish record page?
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Darby was a common anglicization for the Irish name Dermot or Dermott, Diarmaid, etc
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Looking with Kildare records online, I only see one child of Darby Keough and Anne Tuomy in the parish of Ballymore Eustace.
Mathew, baptized 1/11/1846.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633344#page/23/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633344#page/23/mode/1up)
There are at least 6 subsequent children with father Darby Keough, 1847-1858, but with mother Jane Fagan.
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Looking with Wicklow records online, I see a baptism for Patrick (Pat) Keough, on 16/1/1831, father Darby, mother Ann --
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Marriage of Darby Keogh and Anne Tummy [or Tommy?], 22/5/1829, Ballymore Eustace
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633343?locale=en#page/59/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633343?locale=en#page/59/mode/1up)
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Two more:
Bridget Keogh baptized 8/11/1838, father Darby, mother Ann ---
Margaret Keogh, baptized 2/4/1832, father Darby, mother Ann ---
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Thanks for the reply. Yes the marriage in 1829 is my Darby and Ann and they were Catholic. I didn't realise that Ballymore Eustace was in both counties but that would explain some quirks I have found on Ancestry and Family Search. It would seem that their first child was Patrick 1831, Margaret 1832,Darby 1834, Catherine 1836, Bridget 1838, Maria 1839, John 1840 and Matthew 1846. I found all these in the nli registers.
Just not sure where Darby lived or where the Toomy family came from.
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Just not sure where Darby lived or where the Toomy family came from.
Well here is a possibility - just a possibility.
Darby Kehoe is listed in the 1826 tythe valuation for Barretstown, Co. Dublin.
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625726/004625726_00034.pdf (http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625726/004625726_00034.pdf)
Co. Dublin you say? Well Ballymore Eustace and surrounding area was part of Dublin until the 1830s, when it was transferred to Kildare.
From maps, looks like Barretstown lies within the Catholic parish of Ballymore Eustace.
This Darby is a substantial farmer - is that consistent with what is known of the family?
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Link for location of Barretstown
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/south-naas/tipperkevin/newtown/barretstown/#borders (https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/south-naas/tipperkevin/newtown/barretstown/#borders)
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Another thought - if Patrick Keough was part of the Irish Constabulary (as it then was). Didn't their records record his occupation before joining?
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I can only find one relevant Toomy in the tythe valuations, and as it happens, it looks like she is also located in Catholic Parish of Ballymore Eustace.
Catherine Toomy, widow, townland of Dunboyke [official OSI spelling], civil parish of Hollywood, Co. Wicklow, 1833.
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587448/004587448_00369.pdf (http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587448/004587448_00369.pdf)
Another substantial farmer
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Link for Dunboyke townland
https://www.townlands.ie/wicklow/lower-talbotstown/hollywood/hollywood/dunboyke/ (https://www.townlands.ie/wicklow/lower-talbotstown/hollywood/hollywood/dunboyke/)
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Note: The areas in the tythe valuations are in Irish, not English, acres.
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Darby is a common anglicization for the Irish name Dermot or Dermott, Diarmaid, etc
I have seen it used for Jeremiah too.
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Darby is a common anglicization for the Irish name Dermot or Dermott, Diarmaid, etc
I have seen it used for Jeremiah too.
Correct
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Catherine Toomy, widow, townland of Dunboyke [official OSI spelling], civil parish of Hollywood, Co. Wicklow, 1833.
That may be the correct family.
Baptism of Anne Tumy, 30/3/1805, Ballymore Eustace, parents Patrick Tumy and Catherine --
[Christian names in Latin in original]
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/30/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/30/mode/1up)
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And here is baptism of Dermot Kehoe [i.e. Darby Keogh], Ballymore Eustace [Edit
21/2/1797 - date from transcript appears incorrect] ?/1/1797 - looking at the original, date is January.
Dermot, son of Dermot Kehoe and Margaret --
[Christian names are in Latin in original]
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/2/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/2/mode/1up)
There appears to be an address in the original, but it is obscured by a crease.
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Important note: the names of the parents I have found for Darby Keogh and Anne Toomy, fit with the names and naming order of the first four children Darby and Anne had - in accordance with Irish naming traditions. [Actually with a variant, but that is ok]. Which is significant. The names also fit with the names in the tythe valuations.
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Important note: the names of the parents I have found for Darby Keogh and Anne Toomy, fit with the names and naming order of the first four children Darby and Anne had - in accordance with Irish naming traditions. [Actually with a variant, but that is ok]. Which is significant. The names also fit with the names in the tythe valuations.
Yes I noticed the Margaret and that would have made me want to look at this.....I am getting out a set of metaphorical tweezers (while wearing the obligatory white gloves of course) and carefully moving that turned over piece of paper/crease.
It looks to start with kile g or y. if the just visble letters to the right are part of it then they look to be a n
Kileg
Killg
Killy
Kiley
I am looking at Kilgowan in Kilcullen but it is a little way away from Ballymore Eustace.
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Patrick Tumey married Catherine Burke, Ballymore Eustace, 01/4/1798
- Just before the start of the 1798 Rising.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/100/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/100/mode/1up)
April is certain, day may be placeholder in transcription
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Yes I noticed the Margaret and that would have made me want to look at this.....I am getting out a set of metaphorical tweezers (while wearing the obligatory white gloves of course) and carefully moving that turned over piece of paper/crease.
It looks to start with kile g or y. if the just visble letters to the right are part of it then they look to be a n
Kileg
Killg
Killy
Kiley
I am looking at Kilgowan in Kilcullen but it is a little way away from Ballymore Eustace.
Just to note that wherever it is, it is probably the address of the bride.
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OP - I see from previous posts by you that you know from Antipodean records that your Darby Keogh was a farmer. An important piece of information, which you neglected to mention! This means the family may be mentioned in tythe valuations (see my previous) and Griffiths Valuation.
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Behold, Jeremiah and Patrick Keogh are listed in Barretstown, Co. Kildare in Griffith's Valuation of 1853. Patrick is holding from Jeremiah, but Jeremiah does not have a house. Living with Patrick, or in another townland? There are also listings for Jeremiah in Dowdenstown, where he has affluent house.
As Shanreagh pointed out earlier, Darby is also Jeremiah. Most probably an official from elsewhere in the country back-translated Darby to Jeremiah, rather than Dermot, which would be the correct name in this case.
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There are also listings for Jeremiah in Dowdenstown, where he has affluent house.
Looking back at the tythe valuation, there is also a Darby Kehoe listed in Dowdenstown in 1826. Mistranscribed as Kihoe, which is why I missed it first time. Large farm, 176 Irish acres.
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625726/004625726_00033.pdf (http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625726/004625726_00033.pdf)
I searched three civil parishes - Ballymore Eustace, Hollywood, and Tipperkevin - and this Kehoe of Dowdenstown and Barretstown is the only match in the tythe valuations.
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Dowdenstown townlands
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/south-naas/tipperkevin/newtown/dowdenstown-little/
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/south-naas/tipperkevin/newtown/dowdenstown-little/
Barretstown townlands
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/south-naas/tipperkevin/newtown/barretstown/
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/clane/brideschurch/barretstown/
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/connell/oldconnell/oldconnell/barretstown/
The families seem to be around this area and Bally Eustace. All close-ish. Would make a wonderfull family essay or similar.
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The families seem to be around this area and Bally Eustace. All close-ish. Would make a wonderfull family essay or similar.
The 3 civil parishes I searched are all part of the Catholic parish of Ballymore Eustace.
The Barretstown of interest is the one in Tipperkevin.
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Patrick Tumey married Catherine Burke, Ballymore Eustace, 01/4/1798
- Just before the start of the 1798 Rising.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/100/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/100/mode/1up)
April is certain, day may be placeholder in transcription
All I can add is that Catherine Burkes' father's?/witness name is Gulielmus Burke. Gulielmus Burke had a busy time as he appears in an entry on 2 May marrying Juditham Healy.
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And here is baptism of Dermot Kehoe [i.e. Darby Keogh], Ballymore Eustace 21/2/1797
Dermot, son of Dermot Kehoe and Margaret --
[Christian names are in Latin in original]
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/2/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/2/mode/1up)
There appears to be an address in the original, but it is obscured by a crease.
I might have been applying my metaphorical tweezers and white gloves to the wrong entry. This looks like Rath.....with some of the word inserted above, turned over and then a small ink blot added.
Rathmore or Ratheman
I'm having several circular moments ..... this looks like Kile..... or today perhaps Rile.....
On the entry Feb 1797 for Jacobus of Gulielmus and Brigida Kehoe spp Mauritis & XXXX Philips or have I landed on another Kehoe?
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https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/2/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342#page/2/mode/1up)
This looks like Rath.....with some of the word inserted above, turned over and then a small ink blot added.
Rathmore or Ratheman
To me, the "word inserted above" looks like it is the tail end of another word, on a following page - visible because the top page is folded back at the edge?
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Information on Ballymore Eustace parish
http://ballymoreeustaceandhollywoodparish.com/history/ (http://ballymoreeustaceandhollywoodparish.com/history/)
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Looking for townlans with the starting letters suggested by Shanreagh
Tipperkevin
https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/tipperkevin/#townlands (https://www.townlands.ie/kildare/tipperkevin/#townlands)
- Kilmalum
Hollywood
https://www.townlands.ie/wicklow/hollywood2/#townlands (https://www.townlands.ie/wicklow/hollywood2/#townlands)
- Killerk, Rathattin
No Keoghs in any of the above townlands in their tythe or Griffith's valuations.
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And here is baptism of Dermot Kehoe [i.e. Darby Keogh], Ballymore Eustace 21/2/1797
Looking at the original, the date is in January1797, not February. I took 21/2/1797 from transcript.
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Four Toomy families in Dunboyke, Co. Wicklow in 1852
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=&barony=&parish=&townland=Dunboyke&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=&barony=&parish=&townland=Dunboyke&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search)
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Keoghs in Barretstown, in 1852
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=&barony=&parish=tipperkevin&townland=Barretstown+&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=&barony=&parish=tipperkevin&townland=Barretstown+&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search)
Keoghs in Dardenstown in 1841 and 1852.
Note change in name from Darby in 1841 to Jeremiah in 1852.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=&barony=&parish=tipperkevin&townland=dowdenstown&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/results.jsp?surname=&firstname=&year_from=&year_to=&dd_dd=&dd_mm=&dd_yyyy=&book=&county=&barony=&parish=tipperkevin&townland=dowdenstown&last_name_other_or_lessor=&first_name_other_or_lessor=&search=Search)
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Thank you for all this research. I am going to have to do some more sorting as I have a baptism for Darby on 16 Sep 1810 and Ann Toomy on 30 Sep 1812. I would have thought these dates were more in keeping with their marriage in 1829. The Darby baptism in 1797 would make him quite old for his marriage to Ann.
I know Patrick, born about 1831 and his Irish Constabulary Records were from 1853 to 1860 in Wicklow Ireland.¹ Enlisted in the Royal Irish Constabulary. Age listed as 19. and occupation as labourer.
Service No 17472
Service period 16 Aug 1853 to 22 Sep 1860.
He migrated to Australia in 1861 on ship British Trident.
The townland, tithes and Griffith's information is a great help. Will certainly be doing some more fossicking trying to work out the connections.
I hope to visit this area later this year.
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Thank you for all this research. I am going to have to do some more sorting as I have a baptism for Darby on 16 Sep 1810 and Ann Toomy on 30 Sep 1812.
When I check 30/9/1812 baptisms on NLI microfilms, I see a baptism of an Anne KEATING.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342?locale=en#page/61/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342?locale=en#page/61/mode/1up)
Similarly, when I check 16/9/1810, I see a baptism of a JAMES Keogh
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342?locale=en#page/54/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342?locale=en#page/54/mode/1up)
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I know Patrick, born about 1831 and his Irish Constabulary Records were from 1853 to 1860 in Wicklow Ireland.¹ Enlisted in the Royal Irish Constabulary. Age listed as 19. and occupation as labourer.
Well, that puts the cat amongst the pigeons on several fronts.
First, if he was from Wicklow he could not have served in that county. So if you are stating that he was stationed in Wicklow, then he could not have been born there. Which is consistent with him being from the Kildare portion of Ballymore Eustace.
More importantly, though, is you say he was a laborer. That is completely inconsistent with the Dardenstown Keoghs. It is also inconsistent with Australian records (posted by OP in other threads), where it was stated that Darby Keogh was a farmer. It was on that basis that I put effort into looking through the tythe and Griffith's valuations for farms. But if the eldest son, Patrick, was a laborer, then I can't see how Darby was a farmer. Could well be a case of "undocumented social promotion", which did happen - i.e. claiming a higher status than they actually had. And if Darby was in reality a laborer, then he would not appear in the tythe valuations, and might not be in Griffith's (of course he could also have been dead by the time of Griffith's).
If Darby was a laborer, it could also explain a minor mystery: why several of his children don't seem to appear in the Ballymore Eustace parish records. Laborers could move from farm to farm for work, so some years he might not have been in the parish.
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I know Patrick, born about 1831 and his Irish Constabulary Records were from 1853 to 1860 in Wicklow Ireland.¹ Enlisted in the Royal Irish Constabulary. Age listed as 19. and occupation as labourer.
Well, that puts the cat amongst the pigeons on several fronts.
First, if he was from Wicklow he could not have served in that county. So if you are stating that he was stationed in Wicklow, then he could not have been born there. Which is consistent with him being from the Kildare portion of Ballymore Eustace.
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This is an important point. because the life in the RIC was interwoven with the life of the community in which they served it would place an impossible burden on what was often a sole postion in trying to police within an area where kinfolk lived.
So I would check the RIC records, if you are sure he was in the RIC and as a first cut look at the Co Wicklow born ones but don't expect them to be serving in Co Wicklow. But then that does exclude them from being in Co Wicklow at important times of record like marriages, births of children etc.
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Patrick Tumey married Catherine Burke, Ballymore Eustace, 01/4/1798
There is a headstone to the memory of Patrick and Catherine Toomey in St. Kevins Catholic graveyard, Hollywood. Died 1840.
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For Anne Toomey's birth of 1812 it is in the records for the parish of Blackditches which I had been told was absorbed as part of Ballymore Eustace around 1830.
The Darcy I had being baptised in 1810 is
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342?locale=en#page/54/mode/1up. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong line but not sure how to check this.
I appreciate all the detail about the Irish Constabulary and it makes perfect sense with Patricks's records showing he was often in Hollywood.
When I relooked at Catherine's shipping details they state that she sailed on the ship the Northumberland. It left Plymouth 8 Aug 1862 and arrived Australia 12 Nov 1862.
She is listed as coming from Ballymore, County Wicklow, Roman Catholic, a house servant and can read.
So I am confused about the changing counties and parishes.
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To make things even more confusing on Catherine's marriage certificate her parents are listed as Dermot Keogh and Ann Toomy and Dermot is a farmer and she is from County Wicklow. However on her death certificate her father is listed as Nicholas Keogh and her mother Bridget Toomey. I am wondering if these are actually the names of her grandparents.
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Sorry forgot to include that on her death certificate it says she was from County Kildare.
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To make things even more confusing on Catherine's marriage certificate her parents are listed as Dermot Keogh and Ann Toomy and Dermot is a farmer and she is from County Wicklow. However on her death certificate her father is listed as Nicholas Keogh and her mother Bridget Toomey. I am wondering if these are actually the names of her grandparents.
Marriage certificates are mostly usually seen as more reliable, by geneaogists, than death certificates. The reason for this is that the details are given by the person themselves. The name I think would be Darby which is interchangeable with Dermot. if Catherine did not write she would be depending on someone who did.
As for death certificates these can be unreliable. Often completed by the next generation at a time of great stress, sadness and confusion. *
Who completed the death registration please? Have you links to both of the certificates that we can see?
* on a personal note, when my mother died we found that avid genealogist that she was, she had written on a copy of a death certificate form, the correct details to go on her death certificate. She had come across instances, when researching, where those registering the death had put the wrong details down.
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The Darcy I had being baptised in 1810 is
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633342?locale=en#page/54/mode/1up. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong line but not sure how to check this.
That link is to Jacobus Keogh son of Darbie and Catherine with sponsors William Simmins and Catherine Gallagher.
Jacobus is James.
Where did you get this link from? Wexflyer had advised that this was a James baptism earlier.
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For Anne Toomey's birth of 1812 it is in the records for the parish of Blackditches which I had been told was absorbed as part of Ballymore Eustace around 1830.
Who told you this?
Because it isn't true. That parish still exists today!
https://dublindiocese.ie/parish/valleymount/ (https://dublindiocese.ie/parish/valleymount/)
Where it says "St. Joseph, Valleymount, built in 1803. Formerly Blackditches."
On the NLI website it is Blackditches aka Valleymount, with the records continuing to their cutoff date in 1880.
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OP - The baptism date you gave for Ann Toomy would have had her married at age 16.
You realize that is very unlikely, right?
And if you had the baptism date, you had her parents names too. Why didn't you mention them?
Father Farrel Toomy
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633349#page/8/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633349#page/8/mode/1up)
Were any of her children named Farrel? No.
And then there is the fact that she was married in the parish of Ballymore Eustace. It was the custom - actually the rule - that a wedding should take place in the bride's parish - which was Blackditches for that woman.
Finally, there is a marriage for Ann Toomy in Blackditches, married to Patrick Cullen on 20/3/1830.
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I appreciate all the detail about the Irish Constabulary and it makes perfect sense with Patricks's records showing he was often in Hollywood.
It makes no sense to me. If he was from Ballymore Eustace and was stationed in Hollywood, then that was in his home parish! Which should not have been possible.
Could you post a snippet showing his constabulary record - where he was born, where stationed?
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My ggrandfather was Darby Keogh born about 1810 and married to Ann Toomy. They had 8 children, including my great grandmother Catherine baptised 1836.
OP, the above is your first post.
It seems you withheld a lot of information up front:
- You actually had specific baptisms in mind for Darby and Ann, which you didn't mention until way into the conversation.
- Baptisms that gave parents for them (or not)
- And a location for Ann, which isn't even in Ballymore Eustace.
- You also had information about occupations, police records, etc. which all took time to emerge.
After we had spent a lot of our time.
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I appreciate all the detail about the Irish Constabulary and it makes perfect sense with Patricks's records showing he was often in Hollywood.
It makes no sense to me. If he was from Ballymore Eustace and was stationed in Hollywood, then that was in his home parish! Which should not have been possible.
Could you post a snippet showing his constabulary record - where he was born, where stationed?
Thanks Wexflyer I guess my advice to look at a list of RIC employees and to only select from those born out of Co Wicklow for Wicklow based and look elsewhere in Ireland for born in Wicklow employees, was not understood.
Here in NZ currently postings to Police (initial posts particularly), and occupations with law enforcement roles such as Fisheries and some Customs are carefully not posted to home regions. While 'knowing the people/surrounds' can have benefits these advanatages are heavily outweighed by the possibility of being 'got at' or the plain old difficulty of policing kith and kin.