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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Darian Zam on Thursday 23 January 25 15:17 GMT (UK)
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I only come here when I am absolutely stumped. In 15 years as a researcher and social historian I think maybe 3 cases have eluded me, so it's rare I can't crack the mystery but - at this point I have run out of ideas on this one.
I have in the past researched - and am again helping descendants research - Marry Ann Hodgman Tyree, known as Polly to the family, born Dunedin 1872. I will refer to her as Polly Tyree henceforth for clarity.
This branch of the Tyrees in Dunedin had quite a number of illegitimate children and kid swaps sprinkled through it. They seem to have taken a bit of a cavalier attitude to progeny creation and child rearing. Not all of it good. That is just to set the scene a bit, that we have as a collective had some complicated moments sorting through it. Originally from the London area, England (although I think Tyree is an Irish name) a lot of the family were in Australia from the 1850s doing the gold-rushes there, mostly NW VIC and Melbourne areas, and moved back and forth from NZ a fair amount.
The name Tyree may be familiar to some genealogists and researchers here and this is because they were the well known photography family, ‘Tyree Bros’ Wiiliam and Fred Tyree, based in Nelson, and their uncle James Tyree who who was one of New Zealand's earlier pioneering photographers and also worked in Ballarat, Arrarat etc around NW Victoria goldfields area from the late 1850s.
The two pieces of evidence that Polly actually existed are as follows:
Birth record inn NZ Govt Internal Affairs BMD birth records 1872/697
Nelson Provincial Museum photos, several Tyree Bros portraits most likely her by process of elimination, titled 'M. Tyree' and 'Miss M. Tyree', 2 of the portraits are with her sister-in-law Mary Ann Cross Tyree. Image refs in NPM are 33164, 37085, 37086, 49804, 37085, 37086, 33872, a couple of others.
-No marriage record for Mary Hodgman Tyree, Mary Ann/Anne Tyree, Polly Tyree, Mary Hodgman, Polly Hodgman, also checked Hodgeman as the name was regularly misspelled
- No death record for all of the above
- NZ Electoral rolls show no Mary Hodgman Tyree at all however, a Mary Ann/Mary Anne Tyree appears 1893, 1894, 1896, 1897, but ruled out as another family member, Mary Ann Emma Griffin who married George (Edward George) Tyree, so Polly’s sister-in-law.
- Polly is not interred in Dunedin and in particular is not in the family plot with her parents, uncles, siblings in Northern Cemetery.
- No mention in newspapers of for Mary Hodgman Tyree, Mary Ann/Anne Tyree, Polly Tyree, Mary Hodgman, Polly Hodgman, also checked Hodgeman. This in itself is quite odd. At least you’d find exam or social mentions for a child/teen.
There are 21 mentions of Mary Tyree however 19, between 1927-1941, are ruled out as another family member Mary Arbuthnot Ashton nee Tyree (1916-), Auckland, daughter of John Victor and Aggie Hesselton Tyree who married Bruce Ashton Dec 1941. The two mentions that are NOT Mary Arbuthnot Tyree ruled out as Polly was obviously too young to attend high school in 1879 age 7.
- I ran through marriages and deaths in VIC, NSW and QLD, Britain from 1888-1938, same for Scotland, There is a possibility she went off to an obscure country, or – USA where there are a number of references to Mary H Tyrees, M H Tyrees Polly Tyrees etc but nothing really jumped as a possibility for one reason or another mostly because something immediately discounted them I have not checked Irish records. I have not gone through every migration record available for M Tyree and P Tyree, mostly these don't give enough identifiers anyway to rule them in or out.
- Did all the old faithfuls - Google, Wikitree, Ancestry, Family Search, NZ Archives, VIC Archives, NSW Archives, Australian National Archives, UK National Archives, Find a Grave, FreeBMD, FindMyPast, Billion Graves, Migration records.
What happened to Polly? Even if one record has an error, another somewhere should cross reference, give just one hint or clue, rather than EVERY mention disappearing after her family portrait sessions which look to be the late 1880s. After that, NOTHING. She has to be in records somewhere. It’s telling that something is amiss. The only real possibility besides an error is she completely changed her name.
Polly is NOT
Mary Hodgman Tyree Brown, England, 1829 (her aunt)
Mary Hodgman/Hodgeman Tyree Sexton, VIC AU 1882 (her cousin)
Mary Hodgman Tyree, 1854 VIC AU (her cousin)
Spelling variations or mistakes are Tyre, Tyrie but I haven't seen those variations quoted for this family except once as Tyre in an Australian newspaper.
Any tip and hints to follow up appreciated.
Images is Tyree, Miss M, prob Mary Hodgman Tyree. Nelson Provincial Museum Collection, ref 37086.
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Just for added information here are the details from her birth certificate
1872/697 Tyree Mary Hodgman Anne Catherine William
So the Hodgman name is that the mothers maiden name or do you know where it comes from?
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Yes she was daughter of William Tyree Sr. and Ann Catherine nee Baker. A few descendants get Baker as a middle name.
The Hodgman name descends from William Tyree Sr.'s grandmother, so Polly Tyree's great grandma, her maiden name.
Frances Hodgman Brockleman, a name that comes up, was an illegitimate daughter of William Tyree Sr., who was brought to New Zealand with them upon migration from the Australian goldfields. She was raised by him and his wife Ann, treated entirely as family, and interred in the family plot.
Frances' mother Annie Jane Rhodes, married William's brother Jeremiah but not before having another2 kids out of wedlock. As I say they had a cavalier attitude towards this sort of stuff.
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Hello
Was also just about to query why the title of this topic has her name as
"Mary Ann (Polly) TYREE" ?? ;)
Incidentally, her mother's christian name was spelled as "Ann" (Ann Catherine) in other records (death notice / death 1885 etc. )
Also curious to know how it is that you have knowledge that her "nickname" was "Polly" ??
You have said ...
"Two pieces of evidence that Polly actually existed
... NZ Birth record listing 1872/697 [ yes ;) )
but ... the photo from Nelson Provincial Museum - ex TYREE Bros. portraits ... cannot really be regarded as "evidence of existence".
~ Lu
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Who is this Mary Tyree? At school in 1879
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18791213.2.26.2?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Mary+tyree&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA
Does this one appear in school records in the Kiwi Collection?
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I refer to this in my initial post. I don't know who it is. A lot of people obviously came in and out of New Zealand during the gold-rush decades.
I have no evidence it's a Tyree relation of this particular family at this time. Even if it was Polly Tyree (which it isn't, she would be 6-7 years old), all it would prove is that she was still around in 1880 which is a moot point given the photo portraits demonstrate she was still present and closely associated with the family into, at the very least, the late 1880s.
One possibility is Mary Caroline Tyree, Polly's cousin, as the ONLY Mary Tyree to historically be born in NZ before Polly. But did kids go to High school at age 11-12 back then?
1868/35921 Tyree Mary Caroline Annie Frederick
Back on the theme of Tyree family illegitimacy, Mary Caroline had 3 illegitimate children of which only one survived infancy. She then married William Thomas Avery in 1893, had a child Olive with him who ALSO died in infancy after they accidentally smothered her while sleeping. William adopted her only surviving illegitimate child Arthur Tyree, who became Arthur Avery.
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Frances Hodgman Brockleman, a name that comes up, was an illegitimate daughter of William Tyree Sr., who was brought to New Zealand with them upon migration from the Australian goldfields.
You do mean Frances Hodgman TYREE married William BROCKLEBANK (NZ 1881) ??
[NZSG marriages CD has "F. Hoolman TYREE" and NZ BDM index has "F. Hoopman TYREE" ::) ;D : Most other NZ records show her as "Frances Hodgman ... " Her probate file states she was born at Inglewood, VIC. ]
~ Lu
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Polly is a diminutive of Mary. It can also be used for Molly.
if we are to go by the birth record the only official first names the child born in 1872 had were
Mary
Hodgman (from father's family)
Tyree (father's name)
Over the years she may have 'accumulated' Ann or Anne, and Polly. To me, Polly sounds as if it would be a pet or family name. Did the use of Polly persist into adulthood and out of the family?
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Just swinging around the traps as they say:
Brother of Mary Hodgman Tyree. NB Mary has a name from the father's family while john has the mother's maiden name
1874/47657 Tyree John Baker Ann Catherine William
is this the death of JB Tyree aged 2-3 months?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/126840738/john-baker-tyree
He is in Dunedin......i'm confused. ???
1885/5120 Tyree Ann Catherine 52Y
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18851029.2.11?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=william+tyree&snippet=true
She dies in Dunedin.
William Tyree dies aged 69 on 14/8/1889 Not sure about this. This William Tyree lived in Dunedin.
Could you pl clarify who the William Tyree Snr is. Is he the father of Mary & John with Ann Catherine Baker Tyree? Yes it is
Was it WT 'Snr' and AC Tyree who emigrated from Australia with Frances Hodgman Tyree Brockelbank. Also presumably this William Tyree living in Dunedin is not the William Tyree the photographer from Nelson. (I know of the Nelson photogrpaher Tyree and keep get him mixed in my mind)
if there is a William Tyree Snr who is William Tyree Jnr?
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You're correct on the second point. Technically it cannot be 'evidence' because I can't 100% prove it. I draw what I consider an accurate conclusion by process of elimination and say it's 90% Polly Tyree
Based on the age of the girl in the portrait being somewhere between age 14-21.
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/37684/tyree-miss-m
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/56649/tyree-miss
There are two other close family members taken in one of the sessions with her around the same period.
Firstly Mary Ann Cross Tyree, who was Polly's sister-in-law/wife of the photographer and Polly's brother William Tyree Jr., b 1848.
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/41157/tyree
Secondly William Jr Tyree and Mary Ann Cross Tyree's son James Arthur Vivian Tyree b 1878.
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/35349/tyree-mrs-and-arthur
I can compare the appearance of age between them and to other studio portraits of the era to get the general idea this session was likely done between 1885-1889. I then can compare them with the portraits of 'Miss/M Tyree' to get a pretty good idea of her age.
'Miss M. Tyree' is the title as noted in provenance by Nelson Provincial Museum upon accession of the studio collection. I assume this to be Mary Hodgman (Polly) Tyree, as there were 11 siblings in total from William Tyree Sr.'s various relationships and she was the only one whose name began or had middle name M. Now looking in that local tree branch and surrounds for any females who would fit the age bracket; there are maybe 3-4 in this local branch and close surrounds and she is the only M. William Tyree Jr. and Fred Tyree only photographed family members pretty immediate to their branch of the tree at Tyree Bros Studio. Sisters, brothers, in-laws, their children, nieces, nephews.
Why am I convinced it’s her? Because this same girl did sessions with 'Miss/Kate Tyree'
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/37124/tyree-miss
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/37901/tyree-kate
While 'Miss/M Tyree' looked fairly similar to her sister Kitty Cannon (Katherine Tyree), b 1871 they were not identical, they had different noses, and Kate was to be frank a bit prettier. With a number of images taken at the same time , it is fairly obvious they are not the same person and you can ascertain the difference.
At the end of this, whether it's proven 'Miss/M Tyree' in the portraits is Polly or not, is a moot point because all it would do is underline she was still around family until about 1890 before she 'disappears.' This would not as it stands actually answer any questions.
I can't recall where the information came from on her nickname being 'Polly.' This is nearly ten years ago now. The same source that quoted her sister Katherine Tyree as 'Kitty' and 'Kate' to the family. Probably a tree by a descendant on Mundia, now defunct and non-existent as reference. 'Polly' was a common nickname given to Mary and more so Mary Ann, for no explicable reason in the same way Keiths are often nicknamed 'Nobby.' So this is not unusual or out of the question and again, doesn't really have any bearing on answers to the mystery except as an additional tool for search terms.
Hello
Was also just about to query why the title of this topic has her name as
"Mary Ann (Polly) TYREE" ?? ;)
Incidentally, her mother's christian name was spelled as "Ann" (Ann Catherine) in other records (death notice / death 1885 etc. )
Also curious to know how it is that you have knowledge that her "nickname" was "Polly" ??
You have said ...
"Two pieces of evidence that Polly actually existed
... NZ Birth record listing 1872/697 [ yes ;) )
but ... the photo from Nelson Provincial Museum - ex TYREE Bros. portraits ... cannot really be regarded as "evidence of existence".
~ Lu
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Sorry I don't know what 'The Kiwi Collection' is.
Who is this Mary Tyree? At school in 1879
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18791213.2.26.2?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Mary+tyree&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA
Does this one appear in school records in the Kiwi Collection?
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Oh, sorry, I see now. That was an error, from lack of sleep. Ironically I was thinking 'don't mess up the title and confuse people like you did a previous time' whilst typing it. proceeds to put Ann instead of Hodgman SMH. Psychosomatic mistake. I've been using 'Mary Ann' as an alt search term because of 'Polly' more often being a nickname for Mary Ann rather than just Mary. Fixed.
Hello
Was also just about to query why the title of this topic has her name as
"Mary Ann (Polly) TYREE" ?? ;)
Incidentally, her mother's christian name was spelled as "Ann" (Ann Catherine) in other records (death notice / death 1885 etc. )
Also curious to know how it is that you have knowledge that her "nickname" was "Polly" ??
You have said ...
"Two pieces of evidence that Polly actually existed
... NZ Birth record listing 1872/697 [ yes ;) )
but ... the photo from Nelson Provincial Museum - ex TYREE Bros. portraits ... cannot really be regarded as "evidence of existence".
~ Lu
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Sorry I don't know what 'The Kiwi Collection' is.
The kiwi collection is on the NZ Soc of genealogists website. It requires an additional subscription to the basic NZSG one, and at present I don’t have it. But it does have a lot of the school records compiled by local groups over the years. Whether it has ones applicable to your search I cannot say, as cannot log in.
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Hello Darian Zam
Do you, (or those you are researching for), have the death records for >
* Ann Catherine TYREE - d. 1885
* William (snr.) TYREE - d. 1889
[ NZ death record = note that "a printout", (a copy of the actual register entry), will contain more information than a death certificate.]
Provision was made from 1875, for the ages of living children of the deceased person, to be included in their death record.
Q. Do these death records show that a child of approximate age /birth year to that of the daughter Mary Hodgman TYREE, was alive in 1885 / 1889 ?
~ Lu
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Aha good point Lu.
I keep forgetting this invaluable inclusion that NZ death Certificates had for a time.
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Hi Darian Zam,
Following on from Lucy2's suggestion, if either of her parents, her uncles/aunts or her siblings left a Will she might be mentioned.
Regards,
Spades
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We have some potential intel that she may have drowned in London. That's pretty much it. She was allegedly married, on holiday, accidentally drowned in the Thames. That's all we've got. Any suggestions?
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Yes William and Fred Tyree were the sons of William Snr, Mary (Polly) Tyree was a daughter. Their half brother Alfred later better known as a successful manufacturer/industrialist also had an earlier career as a photographer. Their uncle James Tyree is considered an early colonial photographer of Australasia. He worked in Ballarat, Arrarat, Grampians and Dunedin, Queenstown etc at various times, traveling back and forth between the countries capitalizing on the swelling communities fromed around the gold rushes. So it is of little doubt that the three Tyree brothers learned the craft from him.
Just swinging around the traps as they say:
Brother of Mary Hodgman Tyree. NB Mary has a name from the father's family while john has the mother's maiden name
1874/47657 Tyree John Baker Ann Catherine William
is this the death of JB Tyree aged 2-3 months?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/126840738/john-baker-tyree
He is in Dunedin......i'm confused. ???
1885/5120 Tyree Ann Catherine 52Y
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18851029.2.11?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=william+tyree&snippet=true
She dies in Dunedin.
William Tyree dies aged 69 on 14/8/1889 Not sure about this. This William Tyree lived in Dunedin.
Could you pl clarify who the William Tyree Snr is. Is he the father of Mary & John with Ann Catherine Baker Tyree? Yes it is
Was it WT 'Snr' and AC Tyree who emigrated from Australia with Frances Hodgman Tyree Brockelbank. Also presumably this William Tyree living in Dunedin is not the William Tyree the photographer from Nelson. (I know of the Nelson photogrpaher Tyree and keep get him mixed in my mind)
if there is a William Tyree Snr who is William Tyree Jnr?
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I feel pretty sure I'd already done that before I'd established this thread. NZ Archives is one of my top 5 resources as you can get great intel from what's hidden in wills and probates. Now we know she may have died early on (assuming the 1890s for now, based on new intel) it explains why she is not mentioned by anyone. Any estate would have gone to her husband's siblings although at this moment we do not know who her husband was.
Hi Darian Zam,
Following on from Lucy2's suggestion, if either of her parents, her uncles/aunts or her siblings left a Will she might be mentioned.
Regards,
Spades
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Can you elaborate on 'for a time'? Off the top of my head I think I've seen it going on as late as 1935. This issue has been a hot topic with anothe researcher I've been collaborating with as seemingly old records in NZ and various states of Australia are ALL different and a recent discovery was the facsimiles of original older VIC death certs included this info on all issues, similar to NZ. We discovered that not all of the issues listed end up in databases. It was a heady time of people travelling frequently around and in between 2 countries following work whether that was coal or gold. Sometimes kids just got lost in the propwash. I had one great aunt I wasn't aware of who arrived as an infant to the West Coast NZ in 1888 and then effectively disappears. We have no further info and she was never mentioned until I found a record. I know from other researchj projects based in colonial communities that it wasn't uncommon for infants and young children at death to be buried informally.Locally, usually under a tree that was in sight of the dwelling. Sometimes there was simply no cemetery, no storage, no coroner, no nearby town or city. You'd get an apple box or a wood tool box or whatever was handy if you were lucky, and a makeshift marker perhaps.
Hi Darian Zam,
Following on from Lucy2's suggestion, if either of her parents, her uncles/aunts or her siblings left a Will she might be mentioned.
Regards,
Spades
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BDM New Zealand
TYREE Mary Hodgman ps Ann Catherine / William 1872/697
Can you please list all the information on this birth record.
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Just adding this from the other thread
Kentish Independent 4th May 1901
A Woolwich Mystery
The bodies of a Man and a Woman were found in the Thames last week, and at the inquest a verdict of "Found Drowned' was returned. On Saturday the deceased man was identified as Arthur E Grant, a Steward formerly employed on the P&O Liner Moravian. He and a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyrel, had been living together at the house of Mrs Harden, 28 Westdale Road, Plumstead and the woman was expecting to become a mother
Kentish Mail & Greenwich and Deptford Observer - May 3rd 1901 had this added
They left the house on Monday April 22nd, and after leaving the woman came back and threw her arms around Mrs Harden's neck and kissed her saying I regret that I have given you trouble you are a good woman. On the following day their bodies were found in the river. It has been stated they had become reduced almost to a state of destitution
Also in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper 28th April
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Wow. I think this must be it! I don't think there were any other Mary Tyrees in Australasia that qualify. The others were as stated cousins or other relatives - and another Mary Tyree in Australia who was a later generation is ruled out, attached to another family in no way connected that we know of. Thank you so much. Very exciting to think we may have it finally.
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There are lots of replies on your other post which you have not responded to so we don't know if you have seen them
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=252114.18
Also please note the newspaper refers to her as Tyrel though at that time she had not been indentified if she ever was
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My mistake neither left a will, actually. I guess technically I am right she was not mentioned in either :D
Hi Darian Zam,
Following on from Lucy2's suggestion, if either of her parents, her uncles/aunts or her siblings left a Will she might be mentioned.
Regards,
Spades
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As suspected the press made a mistake in reportage. The Moravian was not P&O, it was White Star. Therefore Polly met Arthur on her passage between Sydney and London when he was working as a steward and they started an affair and she became pregnant. This would have happened by Dec 1900 and she obviously knew and told him when he returned from further runs in early Jan 1901, and they had moved in together probably around Woolwich somewhere by early Feb. They were not at Plumstead until early April as the census end Mar 1901 shows they are not residing there.
Also as suspected it is likely the loss of his job had something to do with this as well as the fact Arthur moved out of his parents' home.
It is highly likely that John Grant retells a sanitized version of the story as more was known at the time than he lets on. He would have known that Polly was not some random woman who fell in the water and his son just happened to be strolling by and tried to come to the rescue but he decided to influence the story to make it more palatable.
I am not sure how accessible London papers were in Australia and New Zealand so how quick news was able to be conveyed. Telephones existed but were not common at this time, the first trans-Atlantic call took until 1927 but perhaps telegrams were popular by this time. Mary's sister in law Alice Tyree was still keeping a diary and writing letters and cards on their 1905 journey to London, published in 1996 by Arbour Press as 'A Budget of News.' She does not mention anything about Polly in it although, I will read it again to make sure I didn't miss anything.
I digress, Alfred Tyree, Alice's husband and Polly's brother, may have asked the manager of the London office to keep an eye on the press for any articles so they were informed (on how to not attract any attention to themselves).
Just adding this from the other thread
Kentish Independent 4th May 1901
A Woolwich Mystery
The bodies of a Man and a Woman were found in the Thames last week, and at the inquest a verdict of "Found Drowned' was returned. On Saturday the deceased man was identified as Arthur E Grant, a Steward formerly employed on the P&O Liner Moravian. He and a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyrel, had been living together at the house of Mrs Harden, 28 Westdale Road, Plumstead and the woman was expecting to become a mother
Kentish Mail & Greenwich and Deptford Observer - May 3rd 1901 had this added
They left the house on Monday April 22nd, and after leaving the woman came back and threw her arms around Mrs Harden's neck and kissed her saying I regret that I have given you trouble you are a good woman. On the following day their bodies were found in the river. It has been stated they had become reduced almost to a state of destitution
Also in Lloyds Weekly Newspaper 28th April
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Congratulations on finally finding Mary Tyree, Danien Zam :) :) :)
You brought her home at last.
Regards,
Spades