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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Higpoidius on Tuesday 21 January 25 14:45 GMT (UK)
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Anyone help with this?
Bapt. record for Alexander Robson, 21 Dec 1800, born 15 Dec 1800, Cornhill. Father James Robson, mother Jane Campbell. Father native of Highope parish of Morbottle, but am assuming this is a wrong transcription and is Newbottle, near Houghton-le-Spring (much family history in this area). Jane is a native of the Cornhill Chapelry. I can't find a marriage record for the couple in this area. Any help or suggestions gratefully received.
Many thanks.
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Looking at the image on FindMyPast the entry says Morebottle Scotd. I think this is Morebattle near Kelso. I can't see a marriage on Scotlandspeople though.
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Thank you, Christine53, that is very useful. That puts a different slant on things. It's confusing about the registration as 'Cornhill' on that record for Alexander's birth. I assumed it was Cornhill in the Newcastle district, but if father James is from Scotland, it could be Cornhill-on-Tweed which, as I understand it, was in the County of Durham untill 1844, as a chapelry of Norham. Kelso is only 10 miles from Cornhill-on-Tweed, so at least that makes sense. Perhaps the family moved down to the Newcastle/Sunderland area in Alexander's time for work?
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Who were their children prior to Alexander and where were they born
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Rosie99, as far as I can see:
Jane 24/28 Nov 1791, Cornhill, Northumberland
Marey 4/8 Feb 1798, Cornhill, Northumberland
There is also Calender (female) 8/12 April 1803, Cornhill, Northumberland.
It is the distance of Cornhill-on-Tweed to Houghton-le-Spring (which is where Alexander and his wife and children lived) that bothered me - 72 miles. Having said that, Alexander's first child, Euphemia Robson, is recorded on the 1851 census as being born in Scotland. Just finding the different Cornhills of Durham and Northumberland a bit confusing.
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Have just noticed that Alexander's birth is recorded at St. Helen's church, which it seems is in Cornhill-on-Tweed.
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The record you are looking at is for Cornhill on Tweed.
The original record states that Jane Campbell was a native of 'this chapelry'.
Therefore she was also from Cornhill on Tweed.
James was a native of Morebottle Scot[lan]d
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Thanks JenB, good to see the original and not a transcription.
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Where was Euphemia in 1851?
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JenB - My mistake, Euphemia on 1841 not 1851 census. She in in Houghton-le-Spring with parents.
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Further update, just to not waste anyone's time checking this, the marriage in 1789 in Oxnam (7 miles from the aforementioned Morebattle) of James Robson to an unnamed spouse is to someone that looks like Hurden, and definitely not Campbell. Shame as it would have been perfect...
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The image of Alexander’s baptism mentions that he is the 2nd son
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Thanks for another detail, rosie99.
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I assumed it was Cornhill in the Newcastle district,
I appreciate that it's got nothing to do with your family history enquiry, but I'd really like to understand where Cornhill in Newcastle district was located?
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JenB - it was an option given in a search I did for Cornhill generally in the North East. Looking at Google maps, there seems to be streets in the city named Cornhill, although whether it was/is an actual district may have been my mistake. I was being lead by the family connection to Houghton-le-Spring in the vicinity, only 17 miles from this Cornhill, so appolgies if this has been a false trail.
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JenB - it was an option given in a search I did for Cornhill generally in the North East. Looking at Google maps, there seems to be streets in the city named Cornhill, although whether it was/is an actual district may have been my mistake. I was being lead by the family connection to Houghton-le-Spring in the vicinity, only 17 miles from this Cornhill, so apologies if this has been a false trail.
Ah, I see. Cornhill in Newcastle is in fact a fairly modern street name.
On this side-by-side map the right-hand image is centred on Cornhill. The left-hand map represents exactly the same area in the mid-1800's. As you can see there is no reference to anywhere named Cornhill.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16.6&lat=54.99026&lon=-1.68957&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
For Northumberland place-names I would strongly recommend that you bookmark this excellent gazetter
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Gazetteer
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Thanks JenB, that is extremely useful and certainly clears up my misunderstanding. Have saved that gazeteer for future reference.
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Further update, just to not waste anyone's time checking this, the marriage in 1789 in Oxnam (7 miles from the aforementioned Morebattle) of James Robson to an unnamed spouse is to someone that looks like Hurden, and definitely not Campbell. Shame as it would have been perfect...
Could she have been a widow :-\
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rosie99 - I suppose it's possible. The children are all registered with Jane Campbell as mother, so that Oxnam marriage would be a bit puzzling, unless she's suddenly resorted to a maiden name?
The mention of Alexander being a 2nd son is also at the moment a mystery, as I can only find daughters born to James and Jane. As the 1st daughter is named Jane, I would have expected a son named James. The daughter born after William has the Christian name Calender, which I am assuming is either a family name or named after the place Callander.
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Rosie99, as far as I can see:
Jane 24/28 Nov 1791, Cornhill, Northumberland
Marey 4/8 Feb 1798, Cornhill, Northumberland
There is also Calender (female) 8/12 April 1803, Cornhill, Northumberland.
Searching on freeReg and on the excellent baptism records provided by the Cornhill Social History Project https://www.cornhillsocialhistory.org.uk/Records.html I can see five baptisms in Cornhill to John and Jane (but I'm quite open to correction ;D )
Jane in 1791 (died in 1815)
Alsy in 1795
Nancy in 1798
Alexander in 1800
Elender/Ealender (not Calender) in 1803.
These records supply the useful information that James was a weaver and that he was also a dissenter. This latter suggests to me that he quite likely married in Scotland. Being so close to Coldstream, it could possibly have been an 'irregular' cross-border marriage (more info here https://www.bordersancestry.com/blog/tying-the-knot-in-the-borders-a-look-at-regular-irregular-marriages-in-the-scottish-borders-and-dispelling-the-myths
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James and Jane are still in Cornhill in 1841 and his birthplace is given as Scotland.
HO 107/309/1/8/11
Cornhill
James Robson, 75, weaver, (born) Scotland
Jane do, 75, Y
Ellen do, 35, Y
James Smith 6 months Y
Edit: James died in 1846 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-631X-K?cat=1820930&i=184
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JenB - this is fabulous! What a wonderful site and article! It would seem the marriage may well have been one of the Coldstream ones. What a shame the author's records don't quite go back that far! Still, it's very good evidence of what might have happened.
The children correspond to what I have found, apart from the Marey. I was wondering about her, with Nancy being christened the same year, but will keep it as a possible. Elender/Ealander makes much more sense that Calender!
HUGE thanks for all your time and research into this fascinating subject.
And just seen your message on the 1841 census. Thank you!
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I have added James's burial to that posting.
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The children correspond to what I have found, apart from the Marey. I was wondering about her, with Nancy being christened the same year, but will keep it as a possible.
You have 'Marey' as born 4th Feb and baptised on the 8th Feb 1798. I can't see any corresponding baptisms on freeReg or the Cornhill transcriptions. But they do both show Nancy as born 4th July and baptised on 8th July 1798. The coincidence of dates can't be ignored.
I strongly suspect that there is an error in the transcription you've found for 'Marey' and that she is in fact Nancy.
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Thanks again JenB. I hadn't spotted that and it seems very logical.
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James died in 1846 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-631X-K?cat=1820930&i=184
James and Jane Robson are also named on a gravestone in Coldstream. Gives their dates of death.
Son John died in 1867, age 57
https://www.coldstreamhistorysociety.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Copy_of_Old_Churchyard_grave_inscriptions.pdf
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Something's gone wrong here :(
Scottish death certifiicate for John died Coldstream 1867 gives mum Jane's maiden name as Martin
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9GN-W1P7
Ditto Isabella in 1876
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Got the answer!
There were two James and Jane Robsons of similar age in Cornhill in 1841!
The other couple have the son John
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQB4-TGD
Does that mean the July 1846 burial in Cornhill isn't the right James?
Time to butt out, I think.
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Time to butt out, I think.
Don’t do that !
Looks like the burial I found was the other James :-\
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Martin could be the marriage I found in 1789 in Oxnam to this second James. I said Hurden, but looking at it again it could be Martin. Another small mystery solved??
Thanks jon for coming to the rescue!
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Where do you find the surname Martin? The index on Scotland’s people for that marriage says spouses name ‘not given’.
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That's a good thought. It still leaves you without your marriage though.
Now if the "other" James and Jane Robson died in 1846 and 1849 as per the Coldstream inscription, it could leave these two deaths
ROBSON, JAMES
Age at Death (in years): 83
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in BERWICK UPON TWEED UNION Volume 25 Page 23
and
ROBSON, JANE
Age at Death (in years): 87
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in BERWICK UPON TWEED UNION Volume 10B Page 196
With your Jane still alive in Cornhill in the 1851 census.
She has a 10 year old James Robson with her.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG63-22Y
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Here’s the 1848 James Robson, buried at Cornhill
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-63BW-CQL?cat=1820930&i=190
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That's great Jen.
As is that Cornhill website link you posted!
There are a few Campbell burials (but not many in our required time frame)
19 September 1818, Jane Campbell, age 79. Doesn't say who she was (like wife/widow of)
2 September 1824, Robert Campbell, age 84
Both good ages, but maybe that's not so unusual there!
Going back further, only one
7 March 1779, Mary, daughter of Robert Campbell
Total speculation of course, but was Robert married to Jane? Are they potential parents of Jane born circa 1765? :-\
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It's confusing about the registration as 'Cornhill' on that record for Alexander's birth. I assumed it was Cornhill in the Newcastle district, but if father James is from Scotland, it could be Cornhill-on-Tweed which, as I understand it, was in the County of Durham untill 1844, as a chapelry of Norham.
Going back to clarify Alexander’s birthplace.
In the 1851 census this is given as North Durham, Cornhill.
The major clue here is the use of the term North Durham. This was used to denote the three ‘outliers’ of County Durham which lay within Northumberland. They were known as Bedlingtonshire, Islandshire and Norhamshire. Cornhill fell within Norhamshire.
These three areas became part of Northumberland under the ‘Counties (Detached Parts) Bill’ of 1844.
The 1841 census correctly shows Alexander as having been born in County Durham, because at the time he was born Cornhill was in that county.
I hope this makes sense :-\
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jonwarrn and JenB - you have both been busy! Thanking you again for all this.
I have looked again at the 1789 marriage in Oxnam (image attached) and in the light of day I can see it isn't Martin. Definitely looks like it begins with an H.
Those Robson burials in Berwick upon Tweed look distinctly possible. Interesting point from jon, if the marriage was 'irregular' ie over the border, did the spouse necessarily take the groom's name? So was Jane still a Campbell? I am presuming that was the whole point of the marriage, to take the name and gain legitimacy, but who knows with individuals.
The Campbell burials mentioned I will look into. Could well be connections to Jane. And thanks JenB for clarifying the North Durham listing. This whole story is just so interesting and fascinating!
Many thanks again.
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Sorry, should have said that he Oxnam marriage is the top entry.
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Or am I reading that wrong, in that it is James Robson H.... and that is not a spouses name at all?? In which case it could be a useful marriage?
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I don't think it is a spouses name. I believe it is a place-name. It looks like Harden to me.
Those Robson burials in Berwick upon Tweed look distinctly possible. Interesting
I am confused - which burials are these?
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This is from 'Old Parish Registers - Marriages Oxnam' (Scotland's People) so I was presuming it was a marriage of James Robson or am I again reading this wrong?
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This isn’t actually a marriage record.
It is a later transcript of a register of consignation payments made prior to marriage.
I’m not very familiar with these but there is an explanation here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871369.msg7425765#msg7425765
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Thanks JenB, another thing I've learned about. Fascinating social history.
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I don't think it is a spouses name. I believe it is a place-name. It looks like Harden to me.
There is a place called Harden Mains about a mile north of Oxnam.
See this side-by-side map, Oxnam at the bottom of the l-h map, Harden Mains at the top.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15.0&lat=55.46568&lon=-2.47543&layers=168&right=osm
Of course, whether or not this is your man is very open to debate :-\
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Thanks JenB, that clears that up. Yes, may never know the real truth here, but we have certainly tried! Thanks again for all your time and help.
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Jane still alive in Cornhill in the 1851 census.
She has a 10 year old James Robson with her.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG63-22Y
Probably James Robson, bap 7 Feb 1841
Mother Ellen
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NDNF-8T5
I missed an apparent Campbell baptism in Cornhill
5 April 1773
Robert, son of Robert and Jane
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818c74be93790ec8b266160
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Thanks as always, jonwarrn for more info. Those Campbells in Cornhill are tantalising, and may well be related to our Jane, but can't make the link as yet. I'm quite surprised there are so few Campbells listed, being so close to the border as it is. Perhaps it was just one or 2 Campbell families there at that time.
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However, I do seem to have found James Robson's bpt. in 1765:
13 Oct 1765 Morebattle, parish of Nether HAYHOPE (as on Alexander's birth record), to Charles Robson WEAVER. (Scotland's People). Assuming that James followed into his father's profession.
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Looks promising!
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Playing around with the new full text search on FS brings up a mention of James Robson of Cornhill, weaver, named as a cousin in the will of Eleanor French, spinster of Alnwick (she died 5 June 1840)
He got £20.
Among other bequests is another £20 to a widowed Jane Robson of Branxton.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XX6W-TZW?view=fullText&keywords=James%20Robson%2CCornhill&lang=en&groupId=
Is it the right James?
Probably Eleanor's death reg.
FRENCH, ELEANOR
Age at Death (in years): 80
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in ALNWICK UNION Volume 25 Page 153
Burial on 9 June (transcribed by our Boo)
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58186f3ce93790ec752a8454/
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However, I do seem to have found James Robson's bpt. in 1765:
13 Oct 1765 Morebattle, parish of Nether HAYHOPE (as on Alexander's birth record), to Charles Robson WEAVER. (Scotland's People). Assuming that James followed into his father's profession.
FS has a marriage(?) record of
Charles Robson + Alison French, 1758, Sprouston, Roxburghshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYQB-56V
Doesn't seem to come up on SP. But it is followed by the birth or baptism of son Alexander at Town Yetholm. Date given is 29 June 1760. Is on both sites.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FMMC-XVW