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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ambrat666 on Friday 17 January 25 10:26 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I have a complex genealogical mystery and would greatly appreciate any assistance in researching my ancestor Alice Gurney (née Tietkens/Timkins).
Alice was a half-Aboriginal woman born to a European father and an Indigenous mother, but her exact birth details remain unknown. The earliest records I have found are the births of her first two children in Balladonia and her marriage to Charles Edward Gurney in Esperance in 1906. Family lore states that Alice was 25 at marriage, but I believe the certificate actually says she was 15, placing her birth around 1889-1890. This would mean she was just 12-13 when her first child was born—an uncomfortable but not impossible reality. Would she and Charles have been able to marry without obtaining permission from the Western Australian 'Protector of Aborigines'? Could any additional records—such as birth or marriage documents—help clarify her true age?
Alice’s parentage has been a long-debated topic. It was always believed she was the illegitimate daughter of explorer William Harry Tietkens and an Aboriginal girl named Mary/Mary Ann, who allegedly died in childbirth. Alice was reportedly taken in by the Murray family at Yalata Homestead before being placed with the Voakes family of Fowlers Bay/Coorabie, possibly for domestic duties or sponsorship. Unfortunately, no official documentation confirms this—though a captioned Daisy Bates photograph does mention the Murrays raising half-Aboriginal girls, lending some credibility to the story.
However, recent DNA research has challenged this family history. A UK-based Ancestry.com tree lists John Hauxwell as Alice’s father. While the tree’s owner cannot recall the exact source, I have confirmed DNA matches with Hauxwell’s descendants—yet none linking me to Tietkens. This led me to investigate Hauxwell further, and I found a compelling clue: an 1890 Adelaide hospital admission record. John Hauxwell appears as patient No. 3, while a woman named Mary Ann from Fowlers Bay is listed as No. 9. Further scrutiny suggests Mary Ann and another Aboriginal woman, Lizzie Miller (identified as A.B.L.), were likely sent to the hospital by the ‘Protector of Aborigines’ and may have arrived via steamship.
If this Mary Ann is indeed Alice’s mother, then this hospital admission would be the first real proof that she and John Hauxwell were in the same place at the same time—potentially leading to Alice’s conception later that year. The timing aligns with Alice’s suspected birth around 1889-1890, making this the strongest evidence yet that Hauxwell, not Tietkens, was her biological father. However, I am still struggling to verify whether any direct interaction between them occurred in the hospital. Would there be any surviving records—such as patient details, treatment notes, or government correspondence—that could shed light on this possibility?
Tracking Mary Ann beyond this record has been frustrating. I have searched coroners’ reports, prison records, and destitute children’s records for any trace of a Mary Ann (born around 1874) in South Australia but have found no clear matches. If anyone has insight into potential sources that might document her fate or link her to Alice, I’d be incredibly grateful.
Adding another layer of confusion, I still question where Tietkens fits into this. He was married to Mary Ann Long, who died in November 1890—the exact time our Mary was said to have died. However, newspapers list his wife’s age at death as 44, and she had a daughter, Emily, who appears fully European. Could there have been some mix-up in oral family history, or is there another missing piece to this puzzle?
I would deeply appreciate any help in researching Alice, her mother Mary, or any additional proof regarding the hospital connection between John Hauxwell and Mary Ann. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Amber
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Welcome to RootsChat.
Not something I can help with, just bumping it up the board in the hope it will attract the attention of someone who can help.
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I know little of Antipodean doings or records, but if the DNA matches are to the Hauxwells, then why is there an issue. Isn't that dispositive?
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@wexflyer
Family who have pioneered the research before me argue the DNA connection 'could' work a lot of different ways and I can't technically (yet) dismiss that. I can't prove where the connection is, nor do I really understand how anyone from the UK could have known that information without anyone knowing over here in Australia (given my family has travelled far, wide and remote for answers). ???
How could I prove or disprove that the connection is through Alice?
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As a start, do you have a copy of the marriage certificate and at least one of the birth certificates from when they were in WA? This should give you some data points on her reported age, at least.
Do you understand the timeline of how she went or was sent from SA to WA?
I see there are children 1902 to 1910 on the WA indexes, and then the Gurney's moved to SA. What records do you have that confirm she was born in SA? It seems more likely she was born WA and moved back to SA with her husband.
I do see this will where Emily Dinah Voake, widow, leaves 50 pounds to Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-TQTK-BBCQ-D?view=fullText&keywords=Charles%20Edward%2CGurney&groupId=TH-7795-131997-46293-7
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169289652?searchTerm=Voake%20Gurney
- Alice is probably also the Gurney Emily mentions here
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168241566?searchTerm=Voake
- and it seems she placed a notice for Alice's
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHJ-ZQPH-B6XB?view=fullText&keywords=William%20Paul%20Voake%2CAUSTRALIA%2CAustralia&groupId=TH-7761-128809-2464-88
- and they were connected to Yalata.
At https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx there is also a index card for Alice Gurney under D4770 which is apparently an index to those exempted from the provisions of the Aborigines Act (SA). Do you have this record? It might be a clue to further records about her.
Going back to the Hauxwell connection - the more people you can get to test, the better. You can prove out your hypothesis by demonstrating a pattern of matches (and lack of matches).
To give a simple example, let's say that you descend from Alice through your mother's side. If your theory is correct, cousins you have on your mother's side who also descend from Alice should have matches to you, and to the Hauxwells, whereas cousins you have on your father's side will match with you, but not to the Hauxwells.
By triangulating all the matches you have in terms of those that also match the Hauxwell lines, and those that don't, then you can determine where on your tree this match most likely originated.
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@jorose,
There is no KNOWN documentation to us that records Alice before the birth of her children and marriage, it is all oral history. We have her marriage certificate but I do not know how about the birth certificates. It's coming down to the issue that many of us are not well connected or have much contact. Given Charlie (her second born, first son) died at 21 I don't believe there are any descendants of him, so I will try to contact May's descendants.
The problem with the marriage certificate is that the ages are somewhat unintelligible. I will attach a screenshot for reference. Initially upon first looking at it I thought it said 20 for Charlie (top row), and 15 for Alice (bottom row). When I went to confirm this with a family member, they informed me it's actually 24 and 25... I could see how the 24 could have been mistaken as 20, but not with Alice's given age. I would also argue a 24 year old European man with a 15 year old Indigenous girl was nowhere near uncommon for that time period. What are your thoughts?
I will attempt doing that form of triangulation, with some process of elimination. The closest descendants we have for Alice are a grandchild who has DNA tested, but I believe most other grandchildren are deceased (I will need to double check that).
I believe we have most the information you have provided about her relationship with the Voakes and her Aboriginality exemption. It always stood out to me that Emily Dinah Voake left her a good sum of money because the story was that Alice and Charlie ran away from Fowler's Bay to get married. That gave me the impression that they did not speak ever again, but it seems they had a somewhat amicable relationship (additionally supported by the fact Emily Dinah spoke at Alice's sons funeral). It has been said that Alice was at the Voakes with another boy which I believe is the E.P Hughes mentioned in Emily Dinah's will.
I have however read some things about Emily Dinah's husband, William Paul Voake, giving me the impression he wasn't a very nice man. I have a theory that Charlie took Alice to run away from Paul. However this is completely unproven and just me trying to make sense of all the information.
It is worth noting that there are many Gurney 'branches' along the west and south-west coast. I believe that is a possible reason why Charlie and Alice went over there from Fowlers Bay, because he had family out that way (especially remote where perhaps less questions were asked).
I am more interested about whether there is a way I could prove that the Mary Ann I mentioned is Alices mother. I understand it could very well be impossible to prove via historical documentation but I just figured I'd ask.
Thank you for your help.
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I would agree that the ages are 20 and 15
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I will attach a photo of the hospital record here. I have done a small amount of research for interstitial keratitis and believe it is syphilis related.
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How accurately would these people have known their own ages? Seriously. Ages on Irish BMD records in this same period are commonly way, way off.
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@wexflyer
That has definitely proven to be a problem. When researching Lizzie Miller, (to try and maybe, by extension, get more info on Mary) a family member identified that on other hospital records for a later date she is listed as a few years younger. I wish I aged younger like that, but it would obviously just be some sort if inconsistency knowing her age, which is not uncommon for Indigenous Australian people at that time.
I believe the Gurney family is well documented by comparison though. His age is definitely listed as 24, which corresponds with his supposed birth in 1882. You have to look very closely on the marriage certificate handwriting. He is the son of Emma Green and Edward Hudson Gurney. Edwards parents were the first in our family to settle in Australia.
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You have only posted part of the marriage certificate, did Alice not name a father? Who were the witnesses? Does her death certificate give a place of birth? The children's birth certificates should also give ages and birthplaces for the parents.
Debra :)
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The writing on Alice's marriage certificate is difficult to interpret, I'm not sure if it's the handwriting or how the document was scanned...
The name and profession given for the father *looks* to me like 'Thomas Timkins' and 'Explorer'.
I really struggle with handwriting, so I would appreciate if anyone could try to discern some of the handwritten text.
The surnames Alice has given for herself on her children's birth certificates vary. She has listed Timkins, Titkins, Tietkins, Voake and Tickins. I think it is safe to assume she did not actually know her given surname.
I will try to get my hands on her first-born's birth certificate, hopefully it does have her age and even some additional info.
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I am disagreeing with the reading of others and see her age as 25.
The same hand has written the date 12th May in the left and the numeral 1 is clearly not the same as the 1 in her age. IMO ;D.
The groom is a kangaroo hunter, his father a labourer, his mother Emma Green.
The bride is Alice Timkins aged 25 whose father is Thomas Timkins and mother Mary an aborigi (cut off)
Like you I think the occ of her father begins with Ex
One witness is G E Saunders the other Robena Burs..?
Sue
ADDING
Witness 2 may be Robena BURMAN who in 1908 is on the electoral roll in Esperance with James BURMAN a carpenter.
In 1916 she is in Fremantle c/o Mrs Hewitson of Broome Street Fremantle, and is a widow.
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The surnames Alice has given for herself on her children's birth certificates vary. She has listed Timkins, Titkins, Tietkins, Voake and Tickins. I think it is safe to assume she did not actually know her given surname.
It is unlikely that she registered any of the births herself, do you have any of the certs? How literate was her husband?
Alice was admitted to hospital in Adelaide several times and gives ages which equate to a birth year of 1881 (+/-) 1. This is information that she would have given herself. I also think the age at marriage is 25 and the sections for consent have been crossed out for both.
When she was buried in 1956 they believed that she was aged 77.
https://www.wattlerange.sa.gov.au/living-here/cemeteries/cemetery-search?action=grave&id=251452
Debra :)
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The same hand has written the date 12th May in the left and the numeral 1 is clearly not the same as the 1 in her age. IMO ;D.
Good point. But the 2 in the age of the groom is also clearly not the same!
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Yes. Quite so. ;D Just an opinion which, as mentioned by Dundee, may be born out by the fact that consent was seemingly not required for the woman's marriage.
Sue
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@sparrett
That's a great point!
Hard to say though, because that 2 (for the date of 12th) doesn't look much at all like the 2 for Charlies age of twenty-four (ages probably written one after the other?) either!
@Dundee
Yes I apologise, I don't know if I made it clear, but I am definitely just hypothesising and working from the Hauxwell lead because it's the only information about Alice's parentage I've been able to *somewhat* verify. That (DNA matches) in conjunct with the hospital record containing Mary Ann from Fowler's Bay is what made me really consider the age on her marriage certificate being wrong (even though personally, I never thought it said 25)... That being said, I could be seeing something that's not there and it could easily be a coincidence.
ADDED - I believe Charlie would have been able to somewhat read and write as I was told he went to school but I will need to verify that.
Would you say the consent part of the marriage certificate being crossed out is most likely because they are 24 and 25, NOT to do with anything regarding the various 'Acts' at the time...? I would really appreciate your thoughts. This still places Alice's birth year differently to what most people in my family have recorded, either 1879 or 1885...
Unfortunately it seems to change to fit whoever's narrative (apparently my own included) and I am unable to tell who has gotten what information from where. It was particularly frustrating to be given a random name (Hauxwell) by someone from the UK with no real explanation or proof, but DNA matches that seem to co-respond...
From here onwards I will attempt to triangulate as many of the matches as possible and seek out records of May's birth to try confirming Alice's age. Hopefully this will provide me with more answers and leads to go off... I appreciate your time and help
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Tietkins was definitely at the Fowlers Bay district in 1880.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18944764?searchTerm=%22tietkins%20fowlers%20%22~15
So you are thinking he had a relationship with an indigenous woman named Mary at this time and thus we have Alice who, if this is so, would be 25ish at marriage in 1906 which sits with a death age of 77 in 1956. (Dundee above).
Or you are wondering does your Hauxwell DNA come from a 1890 encounter between John Hauxwell and an indigenous girl named Ann Mary aged 16 from Fowlers Bay who was in hospital with an eye condition (which has causes other than syphilis) at the same time as he also was admitted.
This girl gave birth to Alice who grew up using the surname variations of Tietkins. She has the explorer's given name wrong at marriage. She states Thomas.
Have I understood?
Sue
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@sparett
Yes interstitial keratitis can manifest for many reasons. But when I'm hearing hooves I'll say horses, not Zebras for now.
I suppose I'm looking for opinions or help either way, as it's all unverified. That's the problem. There's no actual proof of Alice's parentage either way (paternal and maternal). It makes starting anywhere very difficult. She is a 'brick wall'.
As mentioned by someone earlier, from her paper trail it looks way more like she originated in WA, and all I have to dispute that is the fact it's been passed down through oral history that she was raised at the Yalata Homestead where she was then somehow acquired by the Voakes (who later left Alice money, as mentioned above).
I spent a while researching Tietkens, as I figured he would be the best place to start given he was a well documented man back then (by comparison). Over the decades our family have procured his journals from his expeditions (both from him as well as other men he was accompanied by) and various correspondence letters to try finding any proof of him ever travelling with a 'companion', infant, or perhaps evidence of him sponsoring an Aboriginal child.
Neville Collins actually wrote a book about him (published 2016) to which one of my family members reached out about the possibility of him fathering an illegitimate child, which was seemingly dismissed (it is mentioned at the end of the book, but I do not have it anymore).
I myself thought it was strange nobody ever journaled, detailed, photographed or mentioned Tietkens as being one of the many (both) documented and undocumented men who had Aboriginal partners or fathered Aboriginal children back then. Furthermore, I find it odd that someone who had researched Tietkens so closely (Neville Collins) would dismiss the possibility of an illegitimate child if they ever found anything hinting toward that. I don't right now know what further steps I could take to access any existing restricted material about him or the area (Yalata, Fowler's Bay, Wookata, Coorabie) without going there (which is not an option right at this minute). Any suggestions?
I additionally tried to explore the Thomas Timkins name (as that's the father's name given on her marriage certificate) but I couldn't find a good match. If she knew her father was William Harry Tietkens, why put something as random as Thomas Timkins...? So many confusing questions that to me, point toward her just having absolutely no idea about when, where or to whom she was born.
But, I urge you to consider that Aboriginal people were heavily neglected and controlled at this time. It was not uncommon for Aboriginal people to be told they were an estimated age when it was not verifiable or correct just so the person documenting could put something down. This is what I have attributed her more recent hospital documents to (because if you didn't know when you were born or how old you were, at some point you're just going to have to pick).
Where would you recommend taking the course of this research? I fear I'm overcomplicating things by exploring leads with no proof, but it doesn't seem I can find legitimate evidence anymore. I appreciate your help and insight, thanks
Amber
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I'll just add that I am descended from Alice through one of her 11 children. Alice was well known to her community, delivering babies along the south-west coast. I recall a story about her delivering a child for a Pastor Simmons/Simmonds but that's just about it (in regard to her life, what she did, etc).
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Your searching has been remarkable. Far reaching indeed and disappointing for you when there is nothing definitive.
As mentioned, from 1896 birth certificates in Western Australia gave the place of birth for the mother.
Looking at some of these would perhaps give answers about the origins of this Alice.
Sue
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Yes, I concur that you have being doing some detailed research.
I agree that the age on the marriage certificate is 25 and not 15.
Also agree that looking at some birth certificates for Alice’s children might be useful.
Did you look closely at any of the men who accompanied Tietkens on his explorations, to see if there is a link to the Hauxwell family name? I would also look in more detail at any of his men named Thomas.
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I've really done nothing compared to my elders (who have journeyed out to the south-west coast), everyone before me has done the real research. I've just tried to make some sense of what's here. When I first started I figured DNA would be the key but as an amateur there's only so much I can explain with that.
I have just come across a member on Ancestry.com who seems to have attempted to digitalise some marriage and birth record details for Western Australia. It is very confusing. They have uploaded a profile for ALICE TIMKINS (b.1886) married to CHARLES EDWARDS GURNEY (b.1881) at Esperance 1906, in a tree called 'WA MARR BIR 03'. This could mean 1903, the year their first child was born.
I am thinking this could be someone who has access to marriage and birth records from Western Australia and these are details for their first born. I have attempted to make contact with the profile that owns this tree, but they have not been active in over a year. I have attached a photo with the tree highlighted for interpretations.
If that is true (which it still may not be, I need to verify), they have still listed Alice's age differently (notably younger than Charles). If they knew her age back then, what would have stopped them from just putting the same year (+/-) as her husband?
ADDED - Link to tree (hopefully it works): https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/tree/3054134?cfpid=-1781752300&dtid=100
Tietkens went on many expeditions and I have *tried* to see if any contained a Thomas or Timkins but seemingly no luck. He was accompanied by some Aboriginal trackers but I have not been able to tie those men to any Mary or Alices that I think could fit. But I admittedly could keep exploring those as potential leads...
However the Thomas thing really throws me off because from what I have tried to track back, nobody recalls being told that Alice actually knew her father's name to be Thomas... But I would agree that's what's on her marriage certificate...!
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I do see this will where Emily Dinah Voake, widow, leaves 50 pounds to Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-TQTK-BBCQ-D?view=fullText&keywords=Charles%20Edward%2CGurney&groupId=TH-7795-131997-46293-7
This might be a wild goose chase, but I am short on time, and will be off for a few days, so I am posting my notes in case it can be followed up on to tie all these people together somehow. Sorry my notes are a bit scattered:
The above quoted Emily Dinah Voake was married to William Paul Voake. (Full name found in several of her annual newspaper memorials to him). William was a farmer, but did go on at least one exploration.
It does not appear that Emily and William Voake had any children of their own.
In Emily's will, she also left part of her assets to Frederick Eli Mason. Frederick's WW1 service document lists Dinah Voake of Fowler's Bay as next of kin, and indicates she is his aunt.
Emily's husband William went on an expedition with explorer Richard Thelwell/Thilwell Maurice. Depending on where you look, William's surname was spelled Voake, or Voke.
Richard Maurice named a hill after him, Vokes Hill in 1901.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vokes_Hill_Corner_to_Cook_Road
There is a huge article on Richard Maurice, mentioning Voakes, and also a mention of Tietkins:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161769847?searchTerm=voakes
I can't tell if Voake went on with Tietkins or not, by the way it is written.
The surveyor that accompanied Richard Maurice was a W.R Murray. Could this be the head or relation to the Murray family at Yalata that took Alice in as a child?
Random clip of Maurice and Voake:
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-observer-voake/163394951/
More on Maurice
https://www.samemory.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=218
My current thinking is that Alice got the "father's occupation as explorer" (if that is what the marriage document really says) correct, but didn't get the name right. I am thinking that a lot of these explorers knew each other, and if one fathered a child, and with Emily D. Voake having no children, she gladly took Alice in.
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@bbart
That's an interesting take! I researched Maurice briefly when I came across information that Voake was employed by him on expeditions, and Maurice became known as 'the unknown explorer' which is what I was told was on Alice's marriage certificate (that might just be me remembering wrong or being told a simplified version).
When I looked into him initially I was fixated on Yalata and Fowler's Bay in 1881 (being the year I thought Alice was born if her age is 25 on the marriage certificate) but I believe he was ill in the Kimberly goldfields, not arriving at Fowler's Bay until mid 1880's. I thought that if he'd NOT spent any time that way prior to mid 1880s, there's not much chance of him being or having knowledge of Alices father... It's definitely all worth another look though.
I will definitely be looking into surveyor W.R Murray though, as this may at least be able to shed some light on how the Voakes acquired Alice... The owner of the Yalata Homestead was Mr G.W Murray.
I believe you are right in saying a lot of the explorers were probably acquainted. It could be worth me looking into some of Maurice's journals.
I appreciate the help and added perspective.
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Just adding a note here which I am certain you have already employed as a technique.
But remember to include the spelling HAWKSWELL in search variations.
Sue
Please provide a link to the Ancestry post you have imaged in reply#22
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@sparrett
I have added the link to reply #22, if that link does not work I can try other ways.
Thank you, I have done some looking with spelling variations, I think I may have even seen John's grandfather use the HAWKSWELL spelling.
I am very caught up on the fact that both the consent parts of their marriage certificate have been crossed out. This would have to allude to either them BOTH being of age, or related to the 'Aborigines Act' that was introduced 1905 but did not come into effect until April of 1906. This does explicitly state (section 42) that an Aboriginal woman is only permitted to marry another Aboriginal man without the 'permission, in writing, of the Chief Protector'. Doesn't this mean they would need permission from 'the protector' regardless of her age? I think it's something I will have to dive deeper into
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Emily Dinah Voake left her a good sum of money because the story was that Alice and Charlie ran away from Fowler's Bay to get married -end Quote
Well, 2 or 3 children were born to the couple before the 1906 marriage so quite possible they left the OAKES because number one was on the way.
My thoughts on the permission matter and not knowledge based ;D
The wording.
'Aborigines Act'
No marriage of a female aboriginal with any person other than an aboriginal shall be celebrated without the permission, in writing, of the Chief Protector.
This law is not about age of either party. It applies regardless of age.
Perhaps this couple had furnished the consent document and it is considered as separate to marriage certification document.
Therefore from the striking through of the section relating to minors we infer-- both off age.
It is noteworthy that the 2 prenuptial births were registered in the surname GURNEY indicating they were a couple which in itself was an offence according to the Act.
There may be others here who have a better understanding of the ramifications than me.
Sue
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Yes, those were also my sentiments regarding why they left when they did but I still wonder why they would run to a state that seems to have even stricter laws relating to Indigenous and European relationships. I once thought it was to reside with relatives on Charlies side, but I now think it may have just been to follow work as I believe he worked on telegraph poles. I believe I found a document saying he was residing at Cape Arid around the time of his marriage.
I may have been unclear regarding my thoughts surround the significance of the act. I understand it doesn't concern age. I had the impression that for Alice, it may have been crossed out regardless because 'half caste' people were considered wards of the state and therefore would not require her parents permission, just the 'Chief Protector', but I now realise if that were the case it would probably just be the protectors details instead of the subjects parents.
My thinking now is that if they had to apply to the protector, that application/correspondence may contain details about her supposed birthdate or birthplace. I think they may have had to do this regardless of age in Western Australia.
I believe they may have avoided populated areas as the government still had policies in place that meant their children could be taken from them. However I believe most of them were eventually put into school around the Coorabie area.