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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Anglesey => Topic started by: liverpoolgenealogy on Tuesday 14 January 25 06:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for information about John Williams born in 1845 in Llansadwrn in Anglesey. He's the furthest back our family can go with oral history. Our family story was that he was born around Menai Bridge and became a tiler in Liverpool, and owned property, and I've found some records to back that up, but not many. Apparently he tiled some buildings in Liverpool today that are listed (The Royal Hotel in Smithdown Road apparently being one of them, but I've not found proof of that) I've had trouble tracing him before he moved to Liverpool though, and was wondering if anyone could help.
1881 census:
66 Lightwood Street, Liverpool
John Williams, head, married, 36, tile layer paviour, b. Llansadwrn Anglesey
Mary do, wife, married, 29, b. Llanbadrig, Anglesey
Grace Ann do, Daughter, 1, b. Liverpool
Margaret Ellen do, Daughter, 2 weeks, b. Liverpool
Jane Parry, nurse, widow, 64, servant? B. Almwch? Anglesey
Hugh Hughes, boarder, unmarried, 44, builder, b. Llanbadrig, Anglesey
1891: 4 Yamwath Street, Liverpool:
John Williams, head, married, 46, tile setter, b. Llansadwrn Anglesey
Mary do, wife, married, 40, b. Llanbadrig, Anglesey
Grace A. do, Daughter, 10, scholar, b. Liverpool
Margaret E. do, Daughter, 10, scholar, b. Liverpool
Hugh J. do, Son, 8, scholar, b. Liverpool
Mary E. do, Daughter, 7, scholar, b. Liverpool
John R. do, Son, 5, scholar, b. Liverpool
William O. do, Son, 3, b. Liverpool
Cath M. do, daughter, 1, b. Liverpool
He also lives at 4 Yamwath Street in 1901. His children are living there in 1911, but not him. I haven't managed to find an entry for him. Mary died in 1891, aged 40.
Obituary posted in Liverpool Echo 6 March 1914:
WILLIAMS-March 4, in his 69th year, John Williams, tile merchant of 39, Ferndale Road (late of Yanwath Street)...
He died in the Tuebrook Mental Hospital, so I assume he could've been there at the time of the 1911 census? 39 Ferndale Road in Toxteth occupied by different family at the time, the same address in West Derby is also occupied by a different family.
Marriage record: 25 December 1876, Liverpool St. David's
John Williams, 32, bachelor, builder, of the parish Walton on the Hill. Father: Hugh Williams, Labourer.
Mary Hughes, 26, spinster, Queen Anne Street, Father: John Hughes, Farmer.
Witnesses: Thomas H[cant read full middle name] Morley and Hugh Hughes (all signed)
The witness Hugh Hughes appears on the 1881 census.
I've looked for possible baptism in the area and the closest I could find to Llansadwrn was this record:
23 April 1845, Llanfihangel Ysgeifiog
John Williams, son of Hugh Williams, Labourer, and Elizabeth.
Haven't managed to find anything about his parents, or any census results for 1851-61-71, not sure what to do!
If anyone can provide any help, I would be very grateful, thank you. :)
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Have you considered this baptism?
John Williams baptised 03 Nov 1844 St Ceinwen
Father Hugh (labourer) and mother Hannah
Abode Glanyhys (which seems very close to the Menai bridge, unless there is more than 1 place with that name.)
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/64721dc3f493fd37d2be6ce5/john-williams-baptism-anglesey-cerrigceinwen-1844-11-03?locale=en
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Other brothers with parents Hugh (Labourer) and Hannah; abode GlanYnys
Hugh baptised 31 mar 1839
William baptised 27 Mar 1842
1841 census for that family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77G-431
1851 census for that family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCQ-ZM4
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No. As I look further, I don’t think this is right for your John Williams.
So he can be eliminated.
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Thank you for your suggestion :)
Over the years, I've tried many options, but there are just so many John Williams in Anglesey that it is so difficult to pin the right one down, at least for me it has been, but that won't stop me trying!
Looking on BMD records trying to find a John Williams b. County Anglesey in 1845 turns up over 40 results! I'm not sure what district the Llansadwrn/Menai area would've been in, though. 3 districts in the county of Anglesey: Anglesey, Bangor and Carnarvon.
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Have you discounted this one in 1861 - Trefor Newygdd, Llansadwrn, Bangor, Anglesey,
I realise that John gives his fathers occupation as Labourer
Hugh Williams 58 occ Farmer of 40 acres employing 1 man Anglesey, Wales
Jane Williams 52 bn Beaumaris, Anglesey, Wales
John Williams 19 bn Llansadwrn, Anglesey, Wales
Mary A Williams 14 bn Llansadwrn, Anglesey, Wales
Jane Williams 12 bn Llansadwrn, Anglesey, Wales
Elinor Williams 5 bn Llansadwrn, Anglesey, Wales
Robert Davis Servant 13 bn Pentraeth, Anglesey, Wales
RG09
Piece 4347
Folio 15
Page 7
The family can be found at that address in 1841 & 1851
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Think the witness is Thomas Herdman Morley (spellings vary a little - Hardman/Hartman, Marley) - his occupation varies from licensed victualler to bricklayer or setter. In Toxteth in 1881, but heads up to Wigan area later.
Important point is his wife Ann - maiden name Hughes, place of birth Anglesey (Llanbadrig according to 1901). Born c1846
And they have a son Hugh
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Thomas Morley
Father William Morley
Ann Hughes
Father John Hughes farmer
Marriage Date 7 Apr 1871 Everton, St Peter
Witnesses Hugh Hughes, Bryan Lunt
added: 1871 census has them recorded working at the same public house. Ann b Llanbadrig
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I've got my Hughes and Williamses mixed up - but I suspect there must be some connection between them
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Have you discounted this one in 1861 - Trefor Newygdd, Llansadwrn, Bangor, Anglesey,
I realise that John gives his fathers occupation as Labourer
Certainly possible. I haven't discounted this one, I've kept note of it, but I'm not sure how likely it is. I
The occupation is off, as you mention, and the children's names don't really match the names John and Mary gave to his children, not that they all should, but its something to look for. I would have to follow up on this lead again though, I made notes on some potential records for John years ago, but I've lost them somewhere.
I was questioning if the nurse on the 1881 census might actually be his mother, under her maiden name, I have seen that before, especially if parents weren't married, or were just pretending to be. But again, probably not very likely, just a fringe possibility in absence of any concrete records.
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Thomas Morley
Father William Morley
Ann Hughes
Father John Hughes farmer
Marriage Date 7 Apr 1871 Everton, St Peter
Witnesses Hugh Hughes, Bryan Lunt
added: 1871 census has them recorded working at the same public house. Ann b Llanbadrig
Thank you for following up on this! I've had a similar problem with tracing the Hughes family, there is so many of them! I did assume Hugh was a brother, but this confirm Ann must be a sister! :)
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Right - brain is back in gear. Ann and Hugh Hughes are potentially siblings of Mary Williams nee Hughes
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1851 - Llanbadrig
John Hughes 43
Margaret Hughes 40
Anne Hughes 4
Mary Hughes 4 Mo
Not sure how Hugh fits in - son by a previous marriage perhaps?
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Summary of Mabels work…….
Ann Morley was formerly Ann Hughes – sister to Mary Hughes
Ann Hughes married in Everton 1871 to Thomas Herdman Morley
This is the Hughes family in 1851 census (Ann and Mary first born children)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCQ-RNG
The family is still in the same place in 1861 and 1871 with sons John and Thomas
Hugh Hughes could be an uncle to Mary Hughes.
This 1861 census is interesting. Hugh Hughes but also in the house is a John Williams age 19
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7G8-XTP
Could be complete red herring, as those names are just so common in this area.
Also worth noting that when Ann (Hughes) Morley died in 1929, her burial was in the Congregational Church.
Both the Hughes and Williams might have been members of the Congregational Church, which maybe is why we are having trouble finding baptism records.
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I am just noting down the names of the children of John Williams, as it might be helpful in finding his parents.
In order of birth -
Grace Ann
Margaret Ellen
Hugh Thomas
Mary Ellen
William Owen
John Richard
Catherine Myfanwy
Thomas Herbert
We might be looking for a mother with the name Grace or Ellen?
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DEATH NOTICE
Grace Williams July 28 1893 At Tir-Garw, Anglesey, eldest daughter of John Williams tile merchant, 4 Yarmouth Street Liverpool
Tîr-garw is in Llandegfan (very near to Menai Bridge)
She was only aged 14, so perhaps visiting or staying with family when she died. It might be a good lead to follow up on.
The death certificate might give you the name of informant that could be useful link.
WILLIAMS, GRACE Age 14
GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 378
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I am running out of time now, but will post this 1851 census as a possibility for anyone to follow up on.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVG-9TT
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That does look good Neale.
Tyn Capal, Llansadwrn
Grace Williams Widow 38 Pauper house servant bn Cemaes (?), Anglesey
John Williams Son 7 At home bn Llansadwrn, Anglesey
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There is a Grace Williams at the same address in 1861 - a widow - A House Servant bn Llanbadrig.
I have no idea what her age is supposed to be _3
RG09
Piece 4347
Folio 19
Page 15
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1871 she is 64 and an Annuitant
RG10
Piece 5725
Folio 6
Page 6
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Same Grace Williams now living in Llanbadrig in 1881 (widow pauper 74) and 1891 (wid 85) ?
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Grace Williams
Death Date 2 Feb 1895
Age 89
Cemetery St Padrig's Church, Llanbadrig
Spouse Hugh Williams
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/238725971/grace-williams
The image of the gravestone seems to read as Hugh died in 1847 - address Penycheld Llansadwrn
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Hugh Williams
Death Age 28
Burial Date 23 Aug 1847 Llanbadrig,
Address Tynycapel Llansadwrn
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Good find Mabel - I have been looking for that
Possible marriage
Grace THOMAS marriage Hugh WILLIAMS 16 May 1842 Llanbadrig
Both full age, both marked X
Hugh a bachelor, labourer, son of Hugh Williams a labourer
Grace a spinster, daughter of John Thomas a labourer
Possible birth
WILLIAMS, JOHN Mother’s name - THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in OF THE ANGLESEY UNION Volume 27 Page 353
It is possible the John we are looking for didn't have birth registered.
I think his birth was more likely in late 1844, so no registration is possible.
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Wonder if this is HUgh's baptism - might make him a bit nearer Grace's age
Hugh Williams
Birth Date 27 May 1814, Llansadwrn,
Baptism Date 19 Jun 1814 Penygarnedd Chapel (records are indexed on Ancestry as Trinity Chapel, Beaumaris)
Denomination Calvinistic Methodist
Father Hugh Williams, labourer.
Mother Mary Williams nee Jones
Address Ucheldre
Father's parish: Llangaffo
Mother's parish before marriage: Llanbadric
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MARRIAGE BANNS 10 Feb 1803 Llanbadrig St Patrick
Hugh Williams bachelor of Llanbadrig to Mary Jones spinster of Llanbadrig
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Grace's year of birth recorded in the census tends to wander quite a bit.
Possible baptism
Grace THOMAS baptism in Seion Congragational chapel, Beaumaris
1 July 1805
Parents John and Eleanor Thomas
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Apologies for my delay in responding! But thank you for your research all!
I actually have Grace's death certificate, I purchased a few years ago, unfortunately led to no leads, which is why I forgot to mention it! The certificate records her death as occurring at Tir Gawr, Llandegfan and was registered by her father, John Williams.
I think Grace and Hugh as parents of John surely must be the right parents? Everything seems to fit! So grateful to you all. :)
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I was having a look through the census records for Grace, she seemed to have very mixed fortunes with her occupations! Her son was on the wealthier side, very sad to see her as a pauper in 1881, but then the 1871 and 1891 censuses seem to suggest otherwise. I wonder what the annuity was?
Also, forgive me, I'm not familiar with researching in Wales, the addresses on the census don't all look like addresses as they would be in England. At the 1851 census, Grace and John lived at Tyn Capel, could this have been a street in Llansadwrn? It only looks like a small village even today, but every family on the census pages seem to have a different address? ???
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Potential 1841 census for them, almost next to eachother?
Grace:
can't read place name
John Thomas, 65, farmer, not born county
Grace do, 25, born county
Margaret do, 15, born county
Margaret Edmund, 25, FS, born county
William Jones, 20, MS, born county
Again struggling to read address for Hugh, but its on the same document.
Separate dwelling house:
Hugh Williams, 19, MS, born county
Owen Williams, 16, MS, born county
Mary Roberts, 20, FS, born county
Piece 1363
Book 12
Folio 11
Page number 16
Not sure about this, there are a few things that don't fit, like Grace's father being a farmer rather than a Labourer that she said he was on the marriage record in 1842, but it caught my eye because there is a Grace and Hugh fairly close together, with Grace older.
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I also ordered the digital image of Grace's 1895 death certificate, it confirms we're on the right family. The informant was John Williams, son, 4 Yamwath Street, Liverpool.
Widow of Hugh, farm labourer. Address of death was Elliot House, Cemaes, Llanbadrig.
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I also ordered Hugh's death for 1847, again seems to have some confirmation. Address was At Capel Llansadwrn. Not sure who the informant is though, Ellen something, I've attached the image. Cause of death: decay, not certified. I haven't seen that on the cause of death for someone so young before!
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Potential brother of John? Not sure about this.
Bodewryd, Anglesey
Bap 27 August 1843, Hugh and Grace Williams, abode: Ty cfal? father's occ. Farmer.
Not sure there's an accompanying registration, this is the closest I could find, but the district is a bit of an issue, so maybe no reg:
WILLIAMS, OWEN MMN THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1843 J Quarter in CARNARVON Volume 27 Page 325
Would be quite a few possible deaths both in Carnarvon and surrounding registration area up to 1851.
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The term “pauper” recorded on the census was a little at the discretion of the census enumerator, I think.
Under the provisions of the Poor Law, a pauper was a person having no property or means of livelihood; a person dependent on the charity of others (whether public charity or family).
I think Grace was receiving an income of sorts, from her son once he was earning enough. This was the “annuity” recorded a couple of times – again the census enumerator’s choice.
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I think it is safe to say that John William did not have any siblings (that lived beyond infancy at least) or we would see them in the 1851 census.
Informant at Hugh William’s death looks like Ellen Parry
There is an Ellen / Eleanor Parry living in Llansadwrn, born abt 1800 in Llanfair. She has others and “children / grandchildren” with the surname Williams living with her. So there may be a family connection for you to check out.
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I think it is safe to say that John William did not have any siblings (that lived beyond infancy at least) or we would see them in the 1851 census.
Informant at Hugh William’s death looks like Ellen Parry
There is an Ellen / Eleanor Parry living in Llansadwrn, born abt 1800 in Llanfair. She has others and “children / grandchildren” with the surname Williams living with her. So there may be a family connection for you to check out.
Would agree with both of these things :) There is Jane Parry living with John in Liverpool as a nurse in 1881, she was b. Anglesey, so again that could be a link. I will do more research on this.
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The term “pauper” recorded on the census was a little at the discretion of the census enumerator, I think.
Under the provisions of the Poor Law, a pauper was a person having no property or means of livelihood; a person dependent on the charity of others (whether public charity or family).
I think Grace was receiving an income of sorts, from her son once he was earning enough. This was the “annuity” recorded a couple of times – again the census enumerator’s choice.
Thank you! I hadn't known this, but that would definitely explain it. :)
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Deleted, incorrect census
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Potential 1841 census for them, almost next to eachother?
Grace:
can't read place name
John Thomas, 65, farmer, not born county
Grace do, 25, born county
Margaret do, 15, born county
Margaret Edmund, 25, FS, born county
William Jones, 20, MS, born county
Again struggling to read address for Hugh, but its on the same document.
Separate dwelling house:
Hugh Williams, 19, MS, born county
Owen Williams, 16, MS, born county
Mary Roberts, 20, FS, born county
Piece 1363
Book 12
Folio 11
Page number 16
Not sure about this, there are a few things that don't fit, like Grace's father being a farmer rather than a Labourer that she said he was on the marriage record in 1842, but it caught my eye because there is a Grace and Hugh fairly close together, with Grace older.
The Thomases are at Hen-Drefor - https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/40409a2d-6197-4620-b744-5b29b90df42b
Whilst John is listed as farmer, it could have been quite a small holding and he might also have been a labourer on another farm when needs required.
The "address" Hugh Williams is at is "separate dwelling house" I'm assuming it's connected to the household listed above, which is at Pencraig. I think it suggests a small cottage or outbuilding separate to the main farmhouse, perhaps in the yard - the fact there's a collection of servants listed there would support that idea.
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Also, forgive me, I'm not familiar with researching in Wales, the addresses on the census don't all look like addresses as they would be in England. At the 1851 census, Grace and John lived at Tyn Capel, could this have been a street in Llansadwrn? It only looks like a small village even today, but every family on the census pages seem to have a different address? ???
Llansadwrn parish has the village of Llansadwrn then some smaller communities and individual named dwellings in the surrounding countryside. Ty Capel/Tyn Capel is basically Chapel House/Houses - think the building may still exist (or a successor) as a house in a row with a very similar name was advertised for rent recently. Postcode is LL59 5SR
If you go north east from Hen Drefor on the map at the link I posted above you'll find Ucheldref (see address on Hugh Williams' baptism) and "meth. chapel" ie methodist chapel, the Capel in the other address. They didn't move very far! this area matches the postcode
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IN 1841 Ellen Parry b 1801 is living at a place called College, which is just down the road from Ucheldre and the chapel
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At time of marriage in May 1842 the abodes are written on marriage record.
Grace was at Penrhyn which is on Cemaes Bay Llanbadrig
Not sure what Hugh’s abode was Pentre h??
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The Thomases are at Hen-Drefor - https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/40409a2d-6197-4620-b744-5b29b90df42b
Whilst John is listed as farmer, it could have been quite a small holding and he might also have been a labourer on another farm when needs required.
The "address" Hugh Williams is at is "separate dwelling house" I'm assuming it's connected to the household listed above, which is at Pencraig. I think it suggests a small cottage or outbuilding separate to the main farmhouse, perhaps in the yard - the fact there's a collection of servants listed there would support that idea.
Thank you! Especially for the link, that's really useful!
Llansadwrn parish has the village of Llansadwrn then some smaller communities and individual named dwellings in the surrounding countryside. Ty Capel/Tyn Capel is basically Chapel House/Houses - think the building may still exist (or a successor) as a house in a row with a very similar name was advertised for rent recently. Postcode is LL59 5SR
If you go north east from Hen Drefor on the map at the link I posted above you'll find Ucheldref (see address on Hugh Williams' baptism) and "meth. chapel" ie methodist chapel, the Capel in the other address. They didn't move very far! this area matches the postcode
Perhaps, if this 1841 census return is in a similar area, maybe it is the correct one then? The ages and John's occupation threw me a little, as I said, but Grace's ages are quite off in some of the earlier censuses, so not necessarily a deal breaker, and of course, you provided a good explanation for John's occ. :)
Thank you, I really appreciate your help and knowledge. :)
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At time of marriage in May 1842 the abodes are written on marriage record.
Grace was at Penrhyn which is on Cemaes Bay Llanbadrig
Not sure what Hugh’s abode was Pentre h??
I was also struggling with that! We know they had a connection to the Llanbadrig area, and the Llansadwrn area, I had a look for place names around there but struggled to find a fit.
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Penrhyn appears to be a small hamlet (fishing village) on Cemaes Bay. It is covered by a couple of pages in the census, so maybe approx. 20 families. Grace was at an adress in Cemaes Bay when she died, so there were probably family round there. In 1841 there are a couple of Thomas families living in Penrhyn, but are they related?, and how?
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Penrhyn appears to be a small hamlet (fishing village) on Cemaes Bay. It is covered by a couple of pages in the census, so maybe approx. 20 families. Grace was at an adress in Cemaes Bay when she died, so there were probably family round there. In 1841 there are a couple of Thomas families living in Penrhyn, but are they related?, and how?
Struggling to find many concrete links for the Thomas family. Perhaps this is a sister of Grace? Seems a good match, but is Anglican.
Ann Thomas, bap 13 May 1810, Llanbadrig, Anglesey, daughter of John and Elinor. (Ancestry)
Struggling to find a marriage record for John and Eleanor. Closest I could find, but again it is Anglican:
27 May 1791, Llanbadrig, Anglesey
John Thomas, Almwch and Ellen Williams, Llanbadrig.
Is it possible that some of the people living in the area in 1841 census could be descendants of John's brothers? So cousins to Grace? But not sure if I would be able to prove any connections.
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Posting again here for some help! I realise this thread is rather old now so whether this gets any interest or not, I'm not sure! I've managed to trace a fair amount on the Thomas side, thank you to
everyone on this thread, but having a little trouble with the Williams side.
The Hugh Williams son of Hugh and Mary nee Jones baptised 1814 is not the correct baptism for this Hugh. I followed up this family; father Hugh died in 1835 buried in Llansadwrn, in 1851 census, at the same address of Hugh's death there is a widow Mary Williams, with a unmarried son, Hugh, aged 36, which rules out this family.
I've started looking again after a bit of a break, and I can't convincingly say I have found a baptism for Hugh, but there is one that's caught my eye.
Hugh Williams, son of Hugh Williams, labourer and his wife Ann, born 10 November 1810 in Llandegfan and baptised 13 November 1810.
It caught my eye for several reasons: A) it places Hugh nearer to his wife's age. B) The middle name Ann was the middle name of Hugh's first granddaughter from his son John (Grace Ann). I haven't found anybody else called Ann in this family, and he used other female relatives names when he named his children. C) Llandegfan is where Hugh's granddaughter Grace Ann died in 1893, aged 14. Her obituary had been posted earlier in this thread. This is the only family link I have managed to establish to Llandegfan, but if this baptism is correct for Hugh, it may establish an earlier connection to the area.
Hugh didn't live long enough to record his birthplace on the 1851 census, but may well not have been Llansadwrn. Only problem is, I can't follow up on this family, I haven't been successful in locating a marriage record for Hugh and Ann, or their death records, or any census records, so don't think I can commit to this being the 100% correct baptism. I'm probably missing something simple!
Any help is always appreciated! :)
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Hi,
Have a look at a web site FreeReg (freereg.org.uk)
Baptism of Hugh 13 Nov 1810 at Seion Church Beaumaris, residence of Hugh and wife Anne Llandegfan.
Potential marriage of Hugh Williams and Anne Williams on 31 August 1804 at St Mary and St Nicholas, Beaumaris (both of the same parish).
Worth investigating further perhaps
Alan
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Thank you for pointing this out! I'll have a look and see what I can find! :)