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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: MisterNick on Monday 13 January 25 17:13 GMT (UK)
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Good afternoon, I wonder whether anyone can help me with what is probably a simple answer, but I can't seem to find it.
If I search for my Great Grandfather Alfred Leon Oger in the 1911 England census I get a "A Oger" in the Summary Books living at 5 Grove Street Islington, which could be him.
Unfortunately there is no year of birth or age.
If I l search under the 1911 census I only get one result which is not him.
Is this a standard dead end.
I am also interested in more information on W Bishop who was living with him.
Any help would be much appreciated.
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Have you tried a search for W Bishop in 1911? Suggest trying William living Islington. You might find Alfred that way.
When was Alfred born and where please? Was he a boy or married in 1911.
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In 1909 William Bishop is living at 5 Grove St with Alfred at 4a Grove St.
George Towers is at 4 Grove St.
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He is Alfred Oyer, 45, in the 1911 indexes. Grove Street. Schedule 106.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLT-WCY
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So he is well found. William Bishop is living with his family whilst Alfred is listed alone albeit at the same address. He is occupying 2 rooms so perhaps lodging with the Bishop family.
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Alfred is in a different residence, although the same address as the Bishops.
Possibly 1 residence on ground floor, and another on floor above.
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Have you tried a search for W Bishop in 1911? Suggest trying William living Islington. You might find Alfred that way.
When was Alfred born and where please? Was he a boy or married in 1911.
Thanks for the quick response - Alfred was born in 1866 in Brighton. I have now found his original submission and, as below, it is in the name of Oyer not Oger (which is a mistake.
The reason for the Bishop connection was that his wifes (Mary Denton) sister (Anne Victoria Denton) married a Bishop (Eric) and had a daughter Wendy. I think the W Bishop link is tenuous.
On a broader note, the reason for looking at this is that i have a lot of family and friends photos of my Grandfathers from the 1910's and 20's with names that I am trying to link up
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He is Alfred Oyer, 45, in the 1911 indexes. Grove Street. Schedule 106.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLT-WCY
Thanks for this it was a great help. I presume I just report to Ancestry that they have spelt his name wrong
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He is Alfred Oyer, 45, in the 1911 indexes. Grove Street. Schedule 106.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLT-WCY
Can I ask how you found this so quickly please? Is there a link from the Summary?
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He is Alfred Oyer, 45, in the 1911 indexes. Grove Street. Schedule 106.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLT-WCY
Can I ask how you found this so quickly please? Is there a link from the Summary?
Don't know how johnwarrn found it but out of curiosity I searched the England 1911 census using just the following:
first name Alfred
surname O*r
and put grove street in the keyword box on ancestry
He comes up first one the list of results with the surname Oyer
In fairness to the transcriber, the writing on the census return does look like OYER. on both the body of the return and the signature as the'g' isn't closed at the top. So for a change its not Ancestry at fault.
Always best to check a 'possible' by looking at both the return and the address panel
Boo
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Thanks Tickettyboo. Strange how it seems obvious when somebody explains it to you
I don't blame Ancestry for the problem because, as you say, the "g" can quite easily be interpreted as a "y". I'll drop them a note to try to get it corrected.
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Good luck with getting it corrected.
I have a 1911 that is complete nonsense but they refused to correct it because that is what the person filling it in wrote!
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Thanks Tickettyboo. Strange how it seems obvious when somebody explains it to you
I don't blame Ancestry for the problem because, as you say, the "g" can quite easily be interpreted as a "y". I'll drop them a note to try to get it corrected.
Just looked, though Ancestry don't actually 'review/correct' any mistranscriptions someone added an alternate yesterday as OGER. Am unsure if in the fullness of time that alternate will be included in the search but if you look at the transcript entry now the alternate shows up in blue under Oyer
Boo
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Good luck with getting it corrected.
I have a 1911 that is complete nonsense but they refused to correct it because that is what the person filling it in wrote!
To be fair, though I am sure you are correct and must feel frustrated, all Ancestry can do is to transcribe what was written.
Otherwise we could 'potentially' end up with kind of incorrect info we often see in trees which is then copied by others.
Boo
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Don't know how johnwarrn found it
I can't remember myself exactly. I was looking on the free indexes on findmypast, I think Oyer came up in their address search as well.
I searched the England 1911 census using just the following:
first name Alfred
surname O*r
and put grove street in the keyword box on ancestry
Wildcards are best!
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Thanks for all the replies.
I have got my great grandmothers death certificate (DoD 26/12/1910) and her residence is 4 Grove Street, Eden Grove. This is in Holloway.
I don't think Grove Street exists any more, but I can't find whether it has been bulldozed or renamed. There are several references to it under a Google search, but I still can't get an answer as to where it was located.
It could be that my Great grandfather changed his accommodation either, in the same house (flats) or moved next door.
My Grandfather, who was 10 at the time was staying with his uncle in the 1911 Census.
Can anybody point me in the right direction to understand the road layout and the house layouts at the time please.
Many thanks
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You can see Grove Street in the centre of the left hand map. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.5&lat=51.54997&lon=-0.11462&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
It still seems to exist but is now part of Eden Grove. The school buildings are still there but all the old houses have gone - the buildings on the east side look like typical LCC flats to me.
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Here's a present-day snip.
The road marked Eden Grove was formerly Grove Street.
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Thanks Jen, very helpful.
My Great grandfathers occupation school caretaker at one or more schools.
I am now wondering whether the families accommodation was in the school. The family, three daughters, my grandfather and my Great Grand mother and Father would have been to Goethe up untiil my Great Grandmothers death. The daughters went to a convent in Worthing, my Grandfather appears, at least in the short term, to have moved in with his uncle and my Great Grandfather moved into smaller accommodation. All speculation of course.
As I have mentioned I have a large collection of photos of everyday life from the time which i believe were taken by grandfather and I am trying to get the story that runs through them. These are a couple photos I have posted on the Our Lady of The Sacred Heart School Facebook page which i believe would have been taken by my Grandfather.
Sorry, can't upload the photos at the moment as they are too big. Will look into it.
Can we tell what street number the school would have been?
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Had a bit of a problem getting the photo sizes reduced. Hope this is it now.
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Can we tell what street number the school would have been?
Hi, I wondered whether anybody was able to help as to where I could find this information please?
Whilst I have been on Ancestry for a while, and probably made some mistakes on there, I am not really clued up on which way to point to gather information.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Lots of London directories on ancestry in London, England, City Directories, 1736-1943
They have some Islington directories up to 1905 to browse.
Is this going to work? :-\
I've attempted to make it magnifable to a larger size than originally.
Eden Grove in the 1910 PO London Directory.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/iiif/2/p16445coll4:8836/full/1350,/0/default.jpg?page=165
Islington schools in 1910
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/iiif/2/p16445coll4:8839/full/1350,/0/default.jpg?page=515
From here you can download a 400 page guide to Islington streets history
https://friendsofim.com/2021/04/08/streets-with-a-story-the-book-of-islington/
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This area is not one I am familiar with, either personally or within any research I've done over the years.
I too looked at directories as jonwarrn did, and doubt that schools churches etc would be listed with a number on a street on maps, directories, census returns etc - they were too recognisable to miss?
This page gives a snynopsis of the history of the school (use CTRL and F to search the page and look for Sacred Heart to go directly to the entry saves scrolling)
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol8/pp117-135
and though its not the same time frame as you are looking for, you can see the church, presbytery and school marked in 1901 on this Goad fire insurance map
https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/City_of_London?gid=842bc6f5-eaa1-59a4-a2bb-20aef60fce90#position=18.3983/51.55004/-0.115082&year=1901
this page on the NLS gives info about the symbols etc on these maps and says that numbers parellel with the street are the house numbers - 4a Grove street, where your Alfred was, is clearly marked on that Goad map and is the other side of the road from the church
https://maps.nls.uk/towns/goad/abbreviations.html
Also check the 1921 census for Alfred who was in a convalescent home in Worthing, that tells you the name of his employer and where he worked. Whether employment records for London County Council still exist I don't know but the London Metropolitan Archives may be able to tell you
Boo
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the London Metropolitan Archives may be able to tell you
They just call themselves The London Archives now, Boo. Though I still think of it as the LMA ;D
https://www.thelondonarchives.org/
Love the Goad map.
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the London Metropolitan Archives may be able to tell you
They just call themselves The London Archives now, Boo. Though I still think of it as the LMA ;D
https://www.thelondonarchives.org/
Love the Goad map.
I'm like the coo's tail, always behind :-)
I looked but failed to find a later Goad map which would have been better
Boo
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Well just as a warning in terms of access to 'modern' day records such as employment records. IF, (the big IF), they have been retained you cannot access these until after 100 years has lapsed. So that is from the time the record was 'produced' . So if looking at a series of records you'd only be able to access those prior to 1925.
I guess in the first instance you'd need to determine where the records might be and what there is in the collection.
CD
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Well just as a warning in terms of access to 'modern' day records such as employment records. IF, (the big IF), they have been retained you cannot access these until after 100 years has lapsed. So that is from the time the record was 'produced' . So if looking at a series of records you'd only be able to access those prior to 1925.
I guess in the first instance you'd need to determine where the records might be and what there is in the collection.
CD
Good point and, in addition, if its a remote request to any archives (rather than looking at records in person at the archives) there will be a 'research fee'.
Which, while I appreciate that its likely to be fair for the time/effort involved, is often beyond my budget.
Boo
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This area is not one I am familiar with, either personally or within any research I've done over the years.
I too looked at directories as jonwarrn did, and doubt that schools churches etc would be listed with a number on a street on maps, directories, census returns etc - they were too recognisable to miss?
This page gives a snynopsis of the history of the school (use CTRL and F to search the page and look for Sacred Heart to go directly to the entry saves scrolling)
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol8/pp117-135
and though its not the same time frame as you are looking for, you can see the church, presbytery and school marked in 1901 on this Goad fire insurance map
https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/City_of_London?gid=842bc6f5-eaa1-59a4-a2bb-20aef60fce90#position=18.3983/51.55004/-0.115082&year=1901
this page on the NLS gives info about the symbols etc on these maps and says that numbers parellel with the street are the house numbers - 4a Grove street, where your Alfred was, is clearly marked on that Goad map and is the other side of the road from the church
https://maps.nls.uk/towns/goad/abbreviations.html
Also check the 1921 census for Alfred who was in a convalescent home in Worthing, that tells you the name of his employer and where he worked. Whether employment records for London County Council still exist I don't know but the London Metropolitan Archives may be able to tell you
Boo
Thanks for the links.
There was definitely a school at the church at that time although it has now moved across the road and round the corner.
I was trying to work out what I was looking at on the GOAD map and the legend. Looking from Georges St.;
As you say, the numbers parallel to the buildings are the house numbers, and so it would appear that 1, 3, 5, 7 are duplicated.
I am presuming that the no. 5 I am dealing with is on the right hand side opposite the church.
The houses on the left were built after the ones on the right. The ones on the right were there in 1874 whereas there was some sort of parkland opposite then.
With the exception of 8, the houses on the right are two story with slate roofs. There is a one storey extension on the back of 4a, 4, 5, 6 & 7. Might this be the outside toilet?
5 seems to be larger than the others, although I can’t work out the 1 storey extension attached to it. I suppose if this one was divided into individual rooms it would make sense for the family (5 of them) to have 4a, and then my GGF moves into 5 when the family is split up
In the back garden of 4a there is a one storey building and in the back garden of 5 there is a one storey building that seems to have a felt roof.
Given the width of the houses, and available space to let light in, s it safe to assume they had one room at the front and one at the back both upstairs and downstairs.
Do you think they would open out onto the road rather than have a front garden
I think I now have a better picture in my mind of what these houses looked like.
Those maps were almost hypnotic when you’re looking for answers in them. Thanks
Thanks also for your additional posts I will work my way through them
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Lots of London directories on ancestry in London, England, City Directories, 1736-1943
They have some Islington directories up to 1905 to browse.
Is this going to work? :-\
I've attempted to make it magnifable to a larger size than originally.
Eden Grove in the 1910 PO London Directory.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/iiif/2/p16445coll4:8836/full/1350,/0/default.jpg?page=165
Islington schools in 1910
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/iiif/2/p16445coll4:8839/full/1350,/0/default.jpg?page=515
From here you can download a 400 page guide to Islington streets history
https://friendsofim.com/2021/04/08/streets-with-a-story-the-book-of-islington/
Thanks for finding these. I think I need to understand directories a lot more going forward. I think it will also help to know where my grandfather and his sisters went to school before the girls went into the convent in Worthing. There doesn't seem to be any reason why he should not` have gone to Eden Grove, but thats not something I have picked up on yet.
The Grove Street numbers (I assume that is what they are) in the PO directory do not seem to align to the GOAD map numbers, and there aren't any entries for the lower end numbers.
Although I don't have the answer to my original question of school / church street number, I do now know they lived in a separate property.
I have gone through the Street document with "ctl. F" on Grove. there are 69 entries of varying types. The pertinent ones seem to suggest that Grove Street is now George's Street, which isn't the case from the Goad map.
Thanks for your help and for the additional information you provided.
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Grove Street is now George's Street, which isn't the case from the Goad map.
Please look at my reply #17 https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888660.msg7622445#msg7622445 and the map I posted.
Grove Street is now (part of) Eden Grove. The postal address of the Roman Catholic church is in Eden Grove, Holloway.
Although I don't have the answer to my original question of school / church street number,
I agree with Boo (reply #22) that it's very unlikely that the church and the school ever had a street number.
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The address of the Sacred Heart church nowadays is 64 Eden Grove, London N7 8EN
The presbytery is number 62
Where the school was is now Claringbull Court at 66 Eden Grove
Planning report
https://democracy.islington.gov.uk/documents/s19237/Sacred%20Heart%20committee%20report%20final.pdf
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The address of the Sacred Heart church nowadays is 64 Eden Grove, London N7 8EN
The presbytery is number 62
Where the school was is now Claringbull Court at 66 Eden Grove
Planning report
https://democracy.islington.gov.uk/documents/s19237/Sacred%20Heart%20committee%20report%20final.pdf
Time for a retreat on my part I think ;D
Apologies for my error about numbering.
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They are only the modern day numbers, Jen. Perhaps everything has to have one :-\
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Grove Street is now George's Street, which isn't the case from the Goad map.
Please look at my reply #17 https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888660.msg7622445#msg7622445 and the map I posted.
Grove Street is now (part of) Eden Grove. The postal address of the Roman Catholic church is in Eden Grove, Holloway.
Although I don't have the answer to my original question of school / church street number,
I agree with Boo (reply #22) that it's very unlikely that the church and the school ever had a street number.
Sorry JenB, I should have said that the linked document also contradicted your map. I saw the document just after I saw your map which started my confusion. If I didn't say it earlier, I did and the side by side function of your map very useful
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Sorry JenB, I should have said that the linked document also contradicted your map.
Forgive me, I'm a bit lost.
Which map has been 'contradicted' and in what way?
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Sorry JenB, I should have said that the linked document also contradicted your map.
Forgive me, I'm a bit lost.
Which map has been 'contradicted' and in what way?
Sorry, thats probably my wording.
You and TickettyBoo posted two separate maps that concurred in that they said that Grove Street was now part of Eden Grove.
jonwarm posted a link to a comprehensive and well regarded document titled Streets with a Story. https://friendsofim.com/2021/04/08/streets-with-a-story-the-book-of-islington/
This document has numerous references to Eden Grove and several to Grove Street, but to me it suggests that Grove Street is now part of Georges Street. (Thus contradicting the maps) I may be reading it wrong though.
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My thanks to everybody who has helped here. I really do feel that I have learned a lot here.
I have a further question. I think it would be helpful for me to know where some of my relatives lived outside the Census years.
The directories on Ancestry could be one source, but are there others.
For instance;
1/ how would I search to find where my Great Grandfather was living at the time of the 1921 census when he was in hospital - or between 1911 and 1921 if he had moved house
2/ how would I search to find where his sister in law Agnes Gertrude Bolger nee Denton lived up until the 1920's
As an aside - I have just found that Alfred's father in law (Samuel George Denton - my 2nd GGF) died whilst living at 36b Eden Grove (Small world)
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Electoral registers, as well as directories, are a good source to track people over the years.
Ancestry (which you seem to have a sub for) for have them for London as well as many others.
from 1918 there were 2 a year Spring and Autumn
qualifying date to be included was 15 January for the Spring register which came into force on the 15 April
15 July was the qualifying date for the Autumn register which came into force on 15 October
from 1928 the dates changed slightly
1 Dec and 1 May for the Spring register
1 June and 15 October for the Autumn register
If you want to see 'which' register a likely entry was in, use the filmstrip beneath the main image and scroll back till you see the header page which will tell you
Boo