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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Wexflyer on Thursday 09 January 25 06:42 GMT (UK)
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I have searched in vain for any documentary evidence for the birth of Sarah Magdalene Roche, supposedly in Dublin, in the 1878-1882 period. Her birthplace is given as Dublin in three English census returns (1891, 1911 and 1921). As an adopted child, her birth name may not have been Roche, but there is reason to think that it was.
Details of the information I have on Sarah are given below:
The first sight I have found of Sarah is in the 1891 English census in Bootle, in the household of John Roche and his wife, Catherine Hayes (married Birkenhead 1869). John was variously a mariner and dock laborer. Sarah is said to be 11 years old, born Dublin.
I have not located Sarah in the 1881 census. John and “Kate” Roche may be the couple of that name in Kirkdale in that census, but this is uncertain.
Catherine (Hayes) Roche died in July 1896 and was buried on 29 July 1896 in Ford cemetery.
In the December quarter of 1896 Sarah married Jenkin Owen Williams in W. Derby SRD. A marriage at this date may indicate that Sarah was born earlier than 1878. Jenkin Williams was a captain in the merchant marine. There is quite a lot of information available on Captain Williams as he ran an ocean liner, the SS Southwark, aground in the Strait of Belle Isle in 1908.
In 1901 Sarah appears in the census in Bootle as Sarah M. Williams, with her father, but without her husband, who was presumably at sea. Age stated to be 22, place of birth simply Ireland.
In the 1911 census, Sarah age 32, is still in Bootle, with her father, and stated to be born Dublin, Ireland.
Her father, John Roche, died in Bootle in January 1912. In his will he stated that Sarah was his adoptive daughter.
In the 1921 Census, Sarah is with her husband in Birkenhead, age 40, born Dublin Ireland.
Sarah died on 4th May 1925, in Cheshire, and was buried in Ford Cemetery, Liverpool.
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I’m not sure this will help.
WILLIAMS, SARAH MAGDALENE (1878) death age 47
GRO Reference: 1925 J Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 634
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
(Search only shows first name the record may have a second but no Magdalene)
In the period 1876-1880 4 Roche/Roach in Ireland. None in Dublin
Sarah Jane Roach 1878 Rathdrum Co Wicklow, 33 miles from Dublin.
(Patrick, a Sailor & Sarah Roach) – nearest to Dublin.
1879 Fermoy Co Cork, Longford Co Longford, Wexford Co Wexford.
Sarah’s 1876- 1880
Dublin 1 = Sarah Carroll 1880.
Dublin North 170 - Dublin South 326
Colin
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Have you considered births of unknown Roche baby girls in places like the Rotunda?
My great-grandfather was registered this way but I was able to match him to a baptismal record to confirm. I wrote a blog about it here: https://cbgenealogy.ie/the-rotunda-strikes-again/
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I’m not sure this will help.
WILLIAMS, SARAH MAGDALENE (1878) death age 47
GRO Reference: 1925 J Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 634
Yes, that is her death, and I have her will.
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I
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
(Search only shows first name the record may have a second but no Magdalene)
In the period 1876-1880 4 Roche/Roach in Ireland. None in Dublin
Sarah Jane Roach 1878 Rathdrum Co Wicklow, 33 miles from Dublin.
(Patrick, a Sailor & Sarah Roach) – nearest to Dublin.
Colin
I checked that Wicklow birth, in Wicklow town . No obvious connection to my Roches.
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Have you considered births of unknown Roche baby girls in places like the Rotunda?
Yes, I examined all 'Unknown" Roche births in the relevant timeframe. All were legitimate, with no obvious or any link to Co. Wexford.
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Just to comment.
I realize this may be impossible to solve, but at the same time I believe this Sarah must have a connection to her adoptive father's family from Wexford. Subsequent developments seem to indicate that.
Vary unusual case. Three adoptions in a row, in three successive generations.
First Sarah Roche was adopted by John Roche of Bootle, but originally from Wexford.
Then Sarah Roche adopted a Roche from Wexford,
And then Sarah's adoptive daughter adopted Sarah's actual daughter!
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Interesting that Patrick Roach from Wicklow was also a sailor, like John in Bootle....
Were the family Catholic? Magdalene may have been a confirmation name. My great grandfather converted to Catholicism about this time in Manchester and acquired a new middle name that he used from that time until his death.
At risk of sounding critical of the Irish, the BMD records are not 100% correct for this period. My own grandfather was born in about 1880 in Galway but his birth does not seem to have been registered at the time though he was baptised. Several of his siblings were baptised before birth (if you believe the paper records) too!!
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Have you considered she might connect through one of the female surnames in the family.
I'm surprised when I find a child 'born' before they were baptised in some of my families but it's not the fault of the BMD records the registrar could only record the information given.
My grandfather managed to get through life with no birth cert or marriage cert, he does have a death cert thanks to his son. So BMD wise he didn't exist until he died.
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Interesting that Patrick Roach from Wicklow was also a sailor, like John in Bootle....
Were the family Catholic? Magdalene may have been a confirmation name. My great grandfather converted to Catholicism about this time in Manchester and acquired a new middle name that he used from that time until his death.
Here is a link for the birth of Sarah Roach in Wicklow in 1878.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02979/2091549.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02979/2091549.pdf)
That the father was Patrick, a sailor, did attract my attention. As you say, the John Roche of Bootle was also a sailor, and had a (potentially) unaccounted for brother named Patrick.
However, the marriage registration for Patrick Roche and his wife, Sarah Toner, in Wicklow in 1869, shows that his father was a William Roche, which doesn't fit with my Roche families.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11429/8198553.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11429/8198553.pdf)
Furthermore, according to a transcript, Patrick appears to have been baptized in Wicklow in March 1846, so no sign of any Wexford connection. I have to say, though, that I don't see such a record in the original register.
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Were the family Catholic? Magdalene may have been a confirmation name. My great grandfather converted to Catholicism about this time in Manchester and acquired a new middle name that he used from that time until his death.
I often ask the same question, about religion, so my apologies for not having stated that they were all Catholic. [Or became Catholic - I don't know what persuasion Jenkin Williams was originally]. I thought Magdalene was a give away ;D
As regards confirmation names, I entirely agree. With Catholic families I put little to no emphasis on second Christian names when looking for births, for this reason.
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At risk of sounding critical of the Irish, the BMD records are not 100% correct for this period. My own grandfather was born in about 1880 in Galway but his birth does not seem to have been registered at the time though he was baptised. Several of his siblings were baptised before birth (if you believe the paper records) too!!
Well, with many being patriotic, you don't think they were going to support the British administration, do you? And at a cost to themselves!
As regards premature baptisms, so called, that is relatively easy to understand given the circumstances of the day. My grandmother and her sisters were all born in the 19th century. Over 50 years ago I enquired why we never celebrated her birthday. She explained that birthdays were never celebrated in her generation, and many didn't know what their birthday was. Further, her parents and grandparents generation did not live by the calendar, and would not have been able to read a calendar in any case. As a specific example, my grandmother was well educated with a boarding school education, but her father was illiterate, as was her grandparents.
Putting this all together, if there is a discrepancy as to the date, I always go with the earlier one.
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Have you considered she might connect through one of the female surnames in the family.
I have wondered, but may be impossible to tell.
In terms of linking the Bootle and Wexford families, there is a Hayes - Hayes possibility in addition to Roche - Roche. However, I know the latter link did exist. It took me over 20 years to find it, as it depends on an 1807 baptism that is only available online on RootsIreland. On the Hayes side, the John Roche of Bootle was married to a Catherine Hayes. Her father had a common name (John), and in addition the parish records in Tagoat, where my Hayes line comes from, only start in 1853, which is way too late.
In any case, the Roche link between Wexford and Bootle did exist, and is documentable, so I thought the alternative unlikely.
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I'm surprised when I find a child 'born' before they were baptised in some of my families but it's not the fault of the BMD records the registrar could only record the information given.
Surely you mean the reverse?
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I'm surprised when I find a child 'born' before they were baptised in some of my families but it's not the fault of the BMD records the registrar could only record the information given.
Surely you mean the reverse?
No, many of mine ‘appear’ to be baptised before they were born.
What about John’s mother’s family. Could Sarah be a child of perhaps a cousin from his mother’s side.
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What about John’s mother’s family. Could Sarah be a child of perhaps a cousin from his mother’s side.
I have not looked at them, as they are not related to me. More particularly, there would be no relationship to the daughter Sarah adopted in turn. That relationship is on John Roche's paternal side.
I can't see how that child (Sarah's adoptive child) would have been sent to Bootle absent a blood relationship.
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The child’s mother would be John’s first cousin.
It was just a thought, I was trying to think of a surname she could have been registered under other than Roche.
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I'm surprised when I find a child 'born' before they were baptised in some of my families but it's not the fault of the BMD records the registrar could only record the information given.
Surely you mean the reverse?
No, many of mine ‘appear’ to be baptised before they were born.
I have a few where the baptism occurs before the registered birthdate too.
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The child’s mother would be John’s first cousin.
The father was John's first cousin on their paternal sides (known)
The mother was not a first cousin to John (known).
The mother could possibly be a cousin to John's wife, but as I already said, that would be a coincidence given the known Roche relationship.
But I will now investigate a Hayes possibility for Sarah, in Dublin and Wexford.
All very strange. Strange in several successive generations.
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Sorry I didn’t realise you knew the father was a Roche, I must have missed that bit.