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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: PeterProg on Thursday 09 January 25 01:47 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find some address details in Sydney from the mid 1930s to mid 1940s for a forebear who seems to have lived in rented accommodation throughout this period. Unfortunately, this timeframe is just too late for the Sands Directory and his name does not appear in the White Pages for these years either. He appears just once in historic Electoral Rolls for this period, in 1943. This record places him in Randwick.
I'm wondering if there might be some government or other authority that might have rental records from back in those years? Unlikely I think, but I thought I would seek advice. Any other suggestions would also be greatly appreciated. Cheers
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You could try Wise's Post Office Directory
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-522689844
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If he was old enough to vote in 1943, (aged 21 +) he was born around 1922 or before and presumably is deceased.
Sharing his name may possibly help people to assist in your search.
Sue
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What can you tell about the sort of accomodation he was in from his address in 1943?
If he doesn't appear much in electoral rolls or directories, it's possible he was in lodging/boarding type situtations, these don't tend to leave much trace.
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Thanks everyone for your responses.
He was living in Darley Road in Randwick in 1943 in what today is a six-bedroom house. It may well have been then too - I now believe that it is most likely that he was renting a room, along with other lodgers in the house.
A bachelor, in the 1920s he lived with his married sister and her husband in Bondi for many years. He appears in the electoral rolls during this period. He was then overseas for about five years until the mid-1930s. But he makes no mark on the electoral rolls though between his return to Australia in 1935 and this sole appearance in 1943. He died in 1945.
It now seems most likely, as suggested, that he was lodging/boarding through these 'missing' years. Unfortunately, there seems to be no Rental Board or equivalent records from back in the day. So where he was living and why he chose not to register on the electoral rolls seems destined to remain a mystery.
Many thanks for the suggestions.
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There was no official compulsory record of rentals, nor of residents in a boarding house.
Judith
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As Sue said, if you would like to share his name, we could have a go at trying to find a record of him?
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Thanks. His name was Francis McCray.
I have very good records for him from his earliest days in Queensland in the 1880s up until his return from a career posting in the UK in late 1934. He sailed back into Brisbane in late 1934 to spend some time with family and then returned to Sydney to resume his business career in an import-export business.
It is only for this period between late '34/early '35 and the 1943 Electoral Roll that I would like to find a little more of his whereabouts. I do think now that he must have been renting / lodging throughout this period.
Cheers
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Perhaps this is him:
Electoral Roll 1939
Francis McCray, 92 O'Brien St, Bondi NSW, salesman (I note that he gave his occupation as 'salesman' on the shipping list showing his departure from England in 1934)
Judith
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But he makes no mark on the electoral rolls though between his return to Australia in 1935 and this sole appearance in 1943. He died in 1945.
The 1939 address found by Judith is that of his sister and brother-in-law, William and Ethel Lavinia BOYD.
Same as before he went to England.
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I think you are right Peter, that he was in lodgings after the above sighting and died at Darley rd.
Here is an advertisement for lodgings in 1942 at what might be the right address??
Though the suburb is Centennial Park not Randwick.
Possibly it was a different suburb on different sides of the road looking at the map.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17817619?searchTerm=%225%20darley%20rd%20%22
CENTENNIAL PARK-Fine Fiont Room
charm local f Board 45/ 5 Darley Rd.
Sue
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Yes, Darley Rd runs along the edge of Centennial Park. Houses are only on one side of the road, so technically it is in Randwick, though could be said to be Centennial Park (the Park, rather than the suburb). Know it well, grew up just around the corner.
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Thanks again everybody for these very helpful responses.
I had searched the Ancestry listing for Australian Electoral Rolls but had not previously found the 1939 entry in Bondi (living with his sister Ethel and her husband) for some reason, so that is great. Another marker for his time back in Sydney after returning from the UK.
And the classified advertisement from 1942 for rental accommodation at 5 Darley Rd might very well be the advertisement to which he responded given that he was living there in 1943. (Though he could have moved there earlier too of course.) But I'm interested in how to interpret the detail of the advertisement. These days the property is listed as a 5 or 6 bedroom house with 3 bathrooms. Assuming similar then, this would seem to imply that he would have been just one of several people lodging there?
And would the 'fine front room' mentioned imply that this space was at the front of the house? Would 'full board' imply that there was a live-in housekeeper or landlord/landlady?
My thinking now is that he probably boarded somewhere currently unknown in Sydney between 1935 and 1938-1939, before returning to live with his sister for a while and then moving on to Darley Road. It would be terrific if we could find any marker for him between 1935 and 1939, but I cannot think of any further options at this stage.
It's been very good progress to date though, for which many thanks!
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I'll be interested to see what others say, I think "full board" means he got a room and meals, breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I suspect the "fine front room" could be either a common room, or a description of the room available, though I think the former.
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But I'm interested in how to interpret the detail of the advertisement. These days the property is listed as a 5 or 6 bedroom house with 3 bathrooms. Assuming similar then, this would seem to imply that he would have been just one of several people lodging there?
And would the 'fine front room' mentioned imply that this space was at the front of the house? Would 'full board' imply that there was a live-in housekeeper or landlord/landlady?
Looking at the history of the premises though newspaer advertisements.
It was a boarding establishment from as early as 1908. The house name was Normandy
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238097669
Glancing through the papers using the address of part of it, there are lottery wins, marraiges and deaths for people who lived there over the years .
Example. One of many.
1945 Mr Jones lottery win
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/263371331
A bridegrooms mother’s address in 1943
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/179257864
The landladyin 1929 was Mrs Withers.
Her advertisement is clear in what was offered.
MANLY
AVOID THE COLD WEATHER!
Comfortable Boarding Establish
ment, 1 minute from Surf and Boat.
Good ' Table. Winter Terms.
"Normandy," 5 Darley Road.
MRS. N. WITHERS, Proprietress.
Tel. YU 2585
From the expression Good Table we infer 2 or 3 meals per day.
Lunch (sandwich etc) for a working man may have been provided also at extra cost.
I found no further reference as the name Normandy after 1934, but the establishment was a divided accommodation well after that
Seems to have declined in terms of fine lodgings by 1983 ::)
Still divided into Separate units in 1983
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/231362731
DISORDERLY HOUSES ACT, 1943
IT is hereby notified that the undermentioned premises were,
by order dated 10th June, 1983, declared a Disorderly House
pursuant to section 3 of the Disorderly Houses Act, 1943:
Unit 28, 5 Darley Street, Darlinghurst;
Unit 33, 5 Darley Street, Darlinghurst.
(8746)
E. S. SHEPARD,
Detective Inspector of Police.
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I think the property "Normandy" was in Darley Rd, Manly - not the Darley Rd in Randwick. ;)
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I must admit to confusion on that point and will gladly accept your local knowledge on the subject, Maddy ;D
Peter, was there any kind of event in the life or living arrangement of Edith and William BOYD which might necessitate a move being required by MCCRAY?
I see them still at their Randwick home after 1939.
Sue
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"Full board" usually means 3 meals plus a room. If he was still working he may have been given a packed lunch. I think the 'fine front room' would be a bedroom for one occupant and was probably let at a dearer rate than others further back in the house, as it had 'charm' and would have had a bit of a view.
My great aunt and uncle ran a similar boarding house in Prahran (Melbourne) up to the mid 1950s and I remember visiting them and meeting what seemed to me vaguely shadowy men in the hallway of their place. They, however, didn't provide meals and the lodgers had use of the kitchen. They themselves had a bedroom and private sitting room.
The shipping record has him ticketed to Brisbane - did he stay in Qld at all, or perhaps he actually disembarked in Sydney?
Judith
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My understanding is that he spent a relatively short time in Brisbane to catch up with family after his years away - his mother and a couple of siblings were living there at this time - and then returned to Sydney to resume his work. He was certainly stilled listed as a salesman in both 1939 and 1943. He may well have been working for the same import-export company, which appears to have been thriving by this time, that sent him to the UK in the first place, though I have not confirmed this.
Ethel and William had a son born in 1922. I wonder if the accommodation was just getting a little cramped by then with a growing teenage lad about the place for Francis to fit in comfortably? But I'm also struck by the fact that he moved back in with Ethel and William in 1939 after several years boarding separately (or so I assume)!
Peter
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Likely to have been more room at O'Brien St after 1942 which is when the son Francis Boyd enlisted in the army.
Now you know many of us who dabble in genealogy are inveterate stickybeaks (and I'd certainly put myself in that category ::) ) so just wondering if William and Ethel had two children born in the same year, although hardly possible as the son Francis gives his birthdate on enlistment as May 1922. Perhaps it's incorrect.
NSW BMD shows these records:
21890/1922 BOYD FRANCIS W, parents: WILLIAM H, ETHEL L, registered WAVERLEY
29420/1922 BOYD ETHEL J, parents: WILLIAM H, ETHEL, registered BALMAIN NORTH
Judith
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Back in the day, widows often took in boarders after their husband's death. It was a good way to earn an income.
Also, the front bedroom of houses was often the " best room" that was used for guests. So potential lodgers would know they were getting a nice room.
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There are 2 marriages on NSW BDM:
William H BOYD and Ethel L McCRAY at Waverley (12265/1921)
William H BOYD and Ethel GRAHAM at Sydney (4103/1915)
I would guess that Ethel J BOYD born at Balmain was the daughter of William BOYD and Ethel nee GRAHAM. :D
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Well found, maddys!
There are 2 marriages on NSW BDM:
William H BOYD and Ethel L McCRAY at Waverley (12265/1921)
William H BOYD and Ethel GRAHAM at Sydney (4103/1915)
I would guess that Ethel J BOYD born at Balmain was the daughter of William BOYD and Ethel nee GRAHAM
Just goes to show how difficult it can be to unravel family histories.
Judith
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I did do a double take when I saw those two Boys births in 1922. The father in both cases was a William Henry Boyd, but two entirely different men as it turns out - one born in 1892 and the other in 1893. Family history research does keep you on your toes!
One last question re Francis in his lodging years, 1935 - 1938-9 that goes to the lifestyle norms of the day. Would a professional man of reasonable means boarding or lodging in the sort of accommodation that Francis might have had typically engage a cleaner to come in and clean his room/rooms periodically? Or would this fall to, maybe, a landlady or, heaven forbid, Francis himself?
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My thoughts on the question. ;D
In that between wars era the employment of domestic staff was still very usual.
It would be understood in offering board to “gentlemen" that the room cleaning would be a part of the package.
As the establishment at Darley Rd was quite large, I would suggest the proprietor would engage servants to take care of the rooms, cleaning, airlng dusting etc. as well as the 3 meals a day aspect.
These may include family members of course and many such places were family operated where the daughters might clean and cook.
Bathrooms were communal, there usually being just one or a most two shared. The WC would almost certainly be outdoors.
Examples
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147851102
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265338656
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/194130175
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139790615
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1144628
Sue
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Thank you Sue - that’s really helpful.
Peter
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There's an article on Trove from May 1929 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16555501?searchTerm=francis%20mccray) covering Francis' farewell dinner at Adams' Cafe prior to his departure for the UK. The dinner was organised by his boss, George G. Clarke, head of George G. Clarke Ltd and The Paraffines Companies Inc.
I don't know for sure, but is more than likely I think that Francis resumed working for Clarke's import-export business on his return from his posting. I'm wondering how likely it might be that records might survive of Francis' employment with the company from this mid-1930s period. Unlikely I suspect, but you never know! There might just be some reference to his residential address if there were any such records.
In the years after Francis' passing in 1945, the George G. Clarke Ltd business seemed to go from strength to strength judging by various Trove references through the 1950s and early 1960s. In September 1964, the company was taken over by Kolotex Holdings - just a month or so before George Gladstone Clarke himself passed away suddenly at his Sydney home.
Kolotex was then taken over in 1976 by JGL Investments Pty Limited. JGL Investments is still going strong apparently, a consumer goods company located at 161 Collins Street, Melbourne.
I very much doubt that JGL would have any resources that related to Francis' employment 90 years ago with a long-ago subsumed company. But might any such records have survived in some other form of corporate database? This is well outside my family history research expertise, but just thought I would ask the question to see if anybody had any suggestions.
Peter