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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: billbir on Monday 06 January 25 21:25 GMT (UK)
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I have just discovered on the 1921 Census that the above, who is my Grandfather, was Chief Clerk for the Disposal and Liquidation Commission for the British Army. He was married with 2 children and together with his Wife Edith Jane née King, lodged in Grove Road, Banbury. My question is, bearing in mind my Grandfather was prosecuted and found guilty of theft from the Army in 1918, how could he conceivably get the job as Chief Clerk for the Commission? He was sentenced to 2 years hard labour in Wandsworth, so cannot understand how he was given the job by the Army. Any comments would be much appreciated.
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Have you considered that was his job in 1918 and he was found guilty of criminal actions in that job. Perhaps he chose to say that was his profession in 1921 because that was his last job and he did not want to say his last 2 years was as a convict. 2 years is a long sentence so it was a big fraud.
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Harold William Pearson was convicted in January 1917 and sentenced to 18 months hard labour.
Are you sure it was the same Harold William Pearson? There was more than one.
Re the "Chief Clerk" role - the 1921 census also shows that this was at Central Stores Depot number 423 in Banbury, so not the over arching role that you might imagine from the job title.
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Hi Alan and Shaun,
Thanks for the replies. Firstly, his job at the time of the conviction was as Quartermaster Regimental Sergeant Major, responsible amongst other things for feeding the troops. The Disposal and Liquidation Commission did not exist in 1918 as it was only introduced in 1921. The man who ran the Commission was, I believe Sir Henry Norman, who lived coincidentally in Chipping Norton which is not far from Banbury.
I do not believe that it was a bogus title, so still left with how did he get that job, or for that matter any job with the Army after his conviction. I have been told by my Mother, that later on he became Manager of an Aluminium factory in Banbury. Bill
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I have just discovered on the 1921 Census that the above, who is my Grandfather, was Chief Clerk for the Disposal and Liquidation Commission for the British Army. He was married with 2 children and together with his Wife Edith Jane née King, lodged in Grove Road, Banbury. My question is, bearing in mind my Grandfather was prosecuted and found guilty of theft from the Army in 1918, how could he conceivably get the job as Chief Clerk for the Commission? He was sentenced to 2 years hard labour in Wandsworth, so cannot understand how he was given the job by the Army. Any comments would be much appreciated.
The newspaper article regarding defrauding the Secretary of State for War dated January 1917 states that he was Harold William Pearson, Regimental Quarter Master - Sergeant and was sentenced to 18 months hard labour. He was 32 years old.
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Hi Rosie, was your reply just to let me know it was 18 mths not 2 years as in mine. Bill
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If he was courtmartialed and sentenced to an Army prison then he would have had a dishonourable discharge. Perhaps he managed to hide this from his employer as it was a military and not a civil conviction?
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Alan,
My post said he was sentenced to Wandsworth, which was a public prison.
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I was just trying to confirm all the details as it had been suggested there could have been 2 people of the same name.
That January 1917 article stated that the HWP concerned was age 32. Your HWP was born Sep qtr 1886
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Perhaps there was a court martial as he was a serving soldier and also a civil trial as he had committed a criminal offence.
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There are two other people on trial with him. Although not answering the original question as to how HWP got the job in Banbury in 1921, it might be interesting to see what the other two were doing in 1921.
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Sorry Rosie, by my reckoning 1886 to 1917 is about 31.
I do not know anything about a 2nd Harold William Pearson and did not raise it. The article undoubtedly refers to my Grandfather. Bill
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Sorry Bill, I am just posting the information the papers gave.
ShaunJ asked you if you were sure it was the same person, I was just trying to give a bit more information in case anyone could confirm one way or the other. Do you have his service records
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Hi Rosie, I am absolutely sure that it is my Grandfather. Bear in mind that we are not talking generations back. The names mentioned on the 1921 census are my grandparents so no confusion from this end. Bill
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As you seem to have all the facts the only possibility is that he lied to his employer and hid his criminal past. Not sure what else you can find out that you have not already said.
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Alan, As the Disposal and Liquidation Commission was a Military body it is highly unlikely that they would not have checked his record. I agree that I do have all the information on the individual as he was my Grandfather but just hoping one of the Rootschat members could have some input that I had not considered.Bill
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In 1911 HWP was with a different wife - Bertha Emily. Did they divorce? In 1921 Bertha was in a household with another Pearson family member.
Or are there two HWPS born in 1886 in Forest Gate?
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The Disposal and Liquidation Commission was not a military body. It was a Treasury body, set up when the Ministry of Munitions was abolished "to exercise such of the powers and duties transferred to the Treasury.... as related to the disposal of surplus Government property , the completion and liquidation of contracts and other liabilities of the Ministry."
As such it would not have access to army service records. No doubt references would have been sought, and we might surmise that HWP would have nominated a friendly former officer or two as referees.
I wonder if his guilty plea in 1917 had saved his CO from investigation.
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Hi Shaun,
I cannot follow your point that because it was a government Commission they would not have had access to Army records.
“Objective: The DLC’s main role was to ensure the orderly sale or disposal of these surplus assets in a way that maximized financial returns for the government and minimized waste. This included selling off war-related materials and properties no longer needed for military purposes.” Surely they would want military expertise to ensure they obtained maximum value. The Chief Clerk would be required to provide feedback to the Comission. I think that would definitely have checked on his background. Regarding the references I agree he ight of obtained some interesting ones. I know, as I have seen it as a child, that he had a letter from Lord Grenfell who was something to do with the Church Lads Brigade and was a Field Marshal. Also his brother worked for the War Office. However, these suggestions are completely unproved and cannot be proved without access to the Comissions Employee records. Bill
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In 1911 HWP was with a different wife - Bertha Emily. Did they divorce? In 1921 Bertha was in a household with another Pearson family member.
Or are there two HWPS born in 1886 in Forest Gate?
HWP only had one wife who was Bertha Emily nee Halls. They did not divorce and did not remarry until after his death inn 1931, presumably she would get whatever Army Pension he was entitled to. There was another HWP who was his son born 1907 when they married. Percy James Leigh Pearson was living with her and the family in 1921. He was a Civil Servant at the War Office. HWP, left his wife during the war when he met up with my grandmother while looking for billeting in Banbury. The rest is history! They had 5 further children and died aged 46 in 1931. Thanks for taking an interest. Bill
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The Chief Clerk would be required to provide feedback to the Comission
Whoa there. He was chief clerk of the Banbury Central Stores Depot number 423, not of the whole Commission.
The manager of Banbury Depot 423 was Martin John Mackey, a former Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers.
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Shaun thanks for that I said that he would be required to give feedback to the Commission not that he was Chief Clerk of the Commission. Sorry, if I gave that impression. How were you able to obtain details of who the Manager was? If you can obtain Employee records perhaps we could find my Grandfathers references Bill
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Bearing in mind he was convicted of fraud it is not too great a leap that he was the sort of person who was able to lie about his past to get a job and then embellish the importance of his job. As a former RQMS he would have the skills to be a chief clerk in a depot selling off ex-military stores. Ironically it was selling off military stores that got him a prison sentence!
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The manager of Banbury Depot 423 was Martin John Mackey, a former Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers.
He's quite easily found by searching the 1921 census for Employer.
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In the newspaper reports of the trial, an unnamed commissioned officer was mentioned as being involved in the fraud. It was said he was said he was being dealt with by the military authorities. Perhaps this officer had some influence in HWP getting the job later.
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Hi Lizzie,
I think that it is unlikely that a Commissioned Officer, who was under suspicion by the Military, would want to stick his neck out by giving a reference to a convicted criminal. Bill
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Hi Lizzie,
I think that it is unlikely that a Commissioned Officer, who was under suspicion by the Military, would want to stick his neck out by giving a reference to a convicted criminal. Bill
Obviously we will never know the true facts, but maybe HWP took more of the blame than he should have done, so the officer got off lightly or was completely exonerated, so later gave him a helping hand in getting a new job. After all, HWP had served his time, shouldn't he be given a second chance?
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Hi Lizzie,
I like your reply! Much more uplifting to a Grandson rather than he lied to get the job. I genuinely think that we might never know unless we can get sight of his job references.
Bill
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Hi All,
Just used AI to provide some input and this is what it came up with:-
"It's quite intriguing that Harold William Pearson managed to obtain a role in the Disposal and Liquidation Commission despite his criminal conviction. After his court martial and conviction in January 1917 for defrauding the King and Secretary of State for War, he would have faced significant challenges in securing employment, especially in a government role.
One possibility is that his military service and skills as a Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant may have been highly valued, and he could have been given a second chance due to his expertise and experience. Additionally, the post-war period saw many individuals with less-than-ideal records being employed in various capacities due to the sheer need for manpower and administrative support.
It's also possible that his conviction was not widely known or that he was able to demonstrate his rehabilitation and commitment to honest work. The specifics of how he obtained the role might be buried in historical records or personal documents that are not easily accessible."
Bill
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Just for interest:
An ad for CSD 423:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/adcd84b5-b66c-421a-9cf4-45840fc9c4b7
and a case of theft (long article, three clips):
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/fc4e0e98-6a9b-4bf3-8aa5-d5a8cfacde3d
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/9969c1b0-980c-4a9d-b7f0-a796c14e6673
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/9969c1b0-980c-4a9d-b7f0-a796c14e6673
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Wow! Shaun, Some sleuthing! Glad I could not see the name Pearson on any of the articles.
Did you see the AI comments?
Thanks for taking an interest it is much appreciated. Wish we could get sight of HWP's references.
Bill
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I can't compete with AI when it comes to stating the obvious in a very elegant way.
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Hi Shaun, you are beginning to sound a little cynical! Bill
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Sorry Bill, I am just posting the information the papers gave.
ShaunJ asked you if you were sure it was the same person, I was just trying to give a bit more information in case anyone could confirm one way or the other. Do you have his service records
Sorry, I can't see that you have answered that
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No I do not have his Service Records but I have some write ups of his service he was in the Kings Royal Rifles Reserve Battalion.
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Presumably the record was one of those destroyed in WW2, that is a shame as it would have been good for you to be able to see even more information.