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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: mama on Wednesday 14 September 05 02:20 BST (UK)

Title: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Wednesday 14 September 05 02:20 BST (UK)
I have been told that Squire Abraham Sutcliffe married Ellen Hartley at Kirkheaton on 18.11.1865.  If this information is correct can someone help me by looking up the GRO number so that I can order their marriage certificate.
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Thursday 15 September 05 21:24 BST (UK)


tHERE IS A MARRIAGE LISTED FOR

SQUIRE SUTCLIFFE - DECEMBER QUARTER 1865 at HUDDERSFIELD   9a 475

However, under HARTLEY there is no corresponding ref. no. that I can see.

Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Thursday 20 October 05 03:51 BST (UK)
I actually applied for the marriage certificate and was also told that the wife was not Ellen Hartley.   Is there any way I can find out who the bride was? 
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mirl on Thursday 20 October 05 05:42 BST (UK)
I found the following entry in the England 1871 census RG10/4371 Folio 81 p33

Cowcliffe Lane Huddersfield
Squire Sutcliffe   Head Mar 28
Ellen Sutcliffe      Wife  Mar 23
Martha Sutcliffe  Dau   Unm  4
Harry Sutcliffe    Son    Unm  2
Sam Sutcliffe      Son    Unm  2mths

This at least suggests that Squire Sutcliffe married an Ellen, and the GRO reference of Dec 1865 accounts for the age of the children.

I would apply for the marriage certificate again and leave the spouse field blank.  I know this is a risk, but it may be that she is shown as say Elizabeth Ellen, or the handwriting may not be clear enough for some-one to read Hartley.

Good luck, Colin
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Thursday 20 October 05 23:00 BST (UK)
Thankyou for your reply.  A good idea and I will try that!
I have searched the census for 1861 1871 1881 1901 and have his death cert.  He died in 1910 aged 58. British Death Certs. don't give much information unfortunately.
I live in Australia where they give date and place of birth parents name and even  name of issue.
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Sunday 04 December 05 23:45 GMT (UK)
Applied for the marriage certificate of Squire Sutcliffe with what information and it came back that the bride was Ellen Berry.  In 1901 Ellen Sutcliffe was still alive.  So British Death Certs show the maiden name of the deceased?
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Monday 05 December 05 11:01 GMT (UK)
Death certificates shown only the name 'at death'......which can be frustrating, especially if the wife re-married after her husbands death.

Why did you think she was Ellen HARTLEY?

Were you going from one of the children's birth certificates ?
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Tuesday 06 December 05 02:58 GMT (UK)
Thankyou for your reply.  That was the name given on the death certificate of Harry Sutcliffe, my grandfather.
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: JudyAnne on Friday 16 December 05 01:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Mama

I've a few suggestions for you which are a bit a bit far-fetched but it's funny how something you've dismissed as improbable turns out to be correct.

1. What if Ellen Hartley married Mr. Berry who died and then married Squire Sutcliffe which would explain the different name on the certificate. Her name should have been given as Berry, formerly Hartley and she should be described as widow but I don't know how carefully things were recorded.
(I can't find a record of a Hartley/Berry marriage on FreeBMD and, if her age is correct on the 1871 census, she must have been married very young and for a very short time!)

2. Assuming she was Ellen Berry and that she and your grandfather outlived Squire, could she have re-married and her new name (Hartley) have been shown on his death certificate? It sounded as if you didn't know when she died so you won't know what name was on her death certificate. It may be worth searching for a marriage after 1910.

3. You say you were told that she married Squire Sutcliffe - could your informant have been muddled? FreeBMD shows that an Ellen Hartley married either John Sutcliffe or James Hartley in the 1st qtr of 1861 in Skipton (GRO ref 9a 61) It could mean that both John and Squire Sutcliffe married Ellen's and your informant got them the wrong way round. It's more likely to be a red herring! Is there a John Sutcliffe in your tree?

I hope this helps

Jud
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Friday 16 December 05 02:57 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Jud.
I intend to apply for Harry Sutcliffe's birth certificate.  He was born 17th December 1869 in Huddersfield
Ellen Sutcliffe (Berry or Hartley) died in Lancashire(or maybe even Yorks as she had a daughter there) on 17th September 1924.
Are you able to look up the folio etc. for the above?
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Friday 16 December 05 08:50 GMT (UK)
In the index of BMD's - 1837online - it shows her death - Sept quarter 1924

Sutcliffe  Ellen      aged 77     Huddersfield  Vol 9a  Page  307

(There is no way of getting the death certificate information without applying for a copy.) 

If you knew where she was buried, it may be possible to find a record from the Church or cemetery. 
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Friday 16 December 05 08:53 GMT (UK)
I have just checked ther marriage index - and there is an entry for

Ellen Berry  Dec quarter  1865  at Huddersfield  9a 475.

Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Tuesday 20 December 05 06:34 GMT (UK)
Do I need a Folio Number for the birth certificate of Harry Sutcliffe bornDec.Quarter 1869 at Huddersfield.
Then maybe I can confirm his mother's name or can anyone tell by records who she was? Ellen Berry or Ellen Hartley.
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Tuesday 20 December 05 07:52 GMT (UK)
You need to order the certificate to discover his mother's maiden name -

looking on the index - there is a Henry Sutcliffe born Dec quarter 1869 in Huddersfield  Vol 9a  Page 287

Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Wednesday 04 January 06 00:03 GMT (UK)
I applied for a Birth Certificate for the fol. etc. number quoted and it apparently was not correct, I got someone born in August 21st 1869 called Henry and with different parents,  Could you please check for a HARRY SUTCLIFFE born 7th December 1869 Father was Squire Abraham Sutcliffe? If anyone wants a certificate for Henry Sutcliffe born 25.8.1869 contact me.
Thanks, Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Wednesday 04 January 06 08:26 GMT (UK)
Sorry it was the wrong one -

but there are no other's for that quarter....

How are you so sure of his date of birth ?

There is a birth reg. in the previous quarter -

Sept quarter 1869 - Harry Sutcliffe  Huddersfield  9a 327


http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/LogonServlet

Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Wednesday 04 January 06 22:08 GMT (UK)
That date was given to me by a relative and I don't know how I can verify it other than getting his certificate.  Any suggestions?  I know that his father was Squire Abraham Sutcliffe and mother was Ellen.
Thanks,
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: SheilaM on Wednesday 04 January 06 23:39 GMT (UK)
Hi all

I don't know if this will be any help but I have been trying to trace this family through the various census and notice that the male children of Squire and Ellen always used the names Harry, Sam and Joe and Tom as opposed to Henry, Samuel etc., which makes me think the birth record above for Harry is probably the correct one as opposed to Henry.

Tried to find birth details for the other children but there are too many within the timescales except for Sam.  As Sam was only 2 months old in 1871 you can get a definite fix on his birth year.  I think this may be his birth record:

March Q 1871 Huddersfield - Sam Sutcliffe Vol 9a Page 361

On Harry Suttcliffe's death certificate does it give a relationship for Ellen Hartley?

On the marriage cert you have for Squire is his father's name and occupation correct?

Checked the 1861 census for Ellen Hartley born Leeds, 5 years either side of Squire's age and couldn't  find a match but did find a Ellen Berry b Leeds 1848 which ties in with Ellen Sutcliffe's age.

Just trying to think on a different track.

Best of luck.

Sheila

Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Thursday 05 January 06 03:41 GMT (UK)
Thankyou for your reply. Yes Harry's Death Cert. sites Ellen Hartley as his mother However Squire Abraham married Ellen Berry in Huddersfield Dec. 1865.  I have a copy of their Marriage cert. in 1865 Dec. Qtr. I applied for it to try and find who his mother was. "The Squire" was raised by his Grandmother and I rather suspect that his mother was Mary Wood but haven't found out when he became Sutcliffe.
I think that this is your man in 1861.(Someone in Rootsweb kindly looked this up.

RG9/3260    Huddersfield     Kirkheaton  Folio    33
Dalton.

Mary Wood     abt 1781     Upperheaton, Yorkshire, England     Head     
Squire A S Wood    abt 1843    Deighton, Yorkshire, England    Grandson   
Oldfield Wood    8y? abt 1853    Dalton, Yorkshire, England    Grandson.
On his tombstone it says that he was born in Lindley and that concurs with the 1871 census.
A bit of a mystery!
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Thursday 05 January 06 09:14 GMT (UK)
This is the family in 1851 - HO107/2294
at Greenside, Kirkheaton

Mary WOOD   Head   70   widow   domestic   B: Kirkheaton
Richard WOOD son 30  son Unm   hand loom 'vesting?' weaver B:Kirkheaton
Nanny WOOD   dau   31  dau  Unm   at home - domestic  B: Kirkheaton
Squire WOOD SUTCLIFFE  8   grandson   day scholar   B: Deighton
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Monday 09 January 06 04:29 GMT (UK)
Kathy Thankyou.
Firstly I was given the wrong date by a relative.  On his Cemetary details he died on 23.6.1930 aged 61.  There is a possibility that he was born in 1868.  Are you able to find  Harry Sutcliffe in the second half of 1868 or is that too much trouble.  I know the boys only had one name each and they were Harry Tom and Joe.  I think Sam must have died young as he was not mentioned on 1881 census.  There seemed to be a few years between Harry and Joe etc.  Perhaps something happened to Ellen "Berry" at that time but it would be a great co-incidence that he married another "Ellen".
Mama
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: KathyM on Monday 09 January 06 08:38 GMT (UK)
Is there any way that his date of birth could have been confused by an american style of writing the date....

7th December 1869 7/12/69  or in USA 12/7/69 ?? (12th July in GB)

Apart from the birth reg. in Sept. q. 1869 - Huddersfield 9a 287

I have checked the index from Mid 1868 -
the only Harry's

Sept. q. 1868  Bramley  9b 368
Sept. q. 1868   Halifax   9a 493
Dec. q. 1868   Bradford Yks.  9b 217

March q. 1869 - none
June q. 1869 - none
Title: Re: Marriage Squire Sutcliffe and Ellen Hartley
Post by: mama on Monday 09 January 06 21:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks Kathy I may apply for the one in the September Quarter and after that I give up as it becomes a bit expensive.
mama