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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: mama on Wednesday 14 September 05 02:20 BST (UK)
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I have been told that Squire Abraham Sutcliffe married Ellen Hartley at Kirkheaton on 18.11.1865. If this information is correct can someone help me by looking up the GRO number so that I can order their marriage certificate.
Mama
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tHERE IS A MARRIAGE LISTED FOR
SQUIRE SUTCLIFFE - DECEMBER QUARTER 1865 at HUDDERSFIELD 9a 475
However, under HARTLEY there is no corresponding ref. no. that I can see.
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I actually applied for the marriage certificate and was also told that the wife was not Ellen Hartley. Is there any way I can find out who the bride was?
Mama
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I found the following entry in the England 1871 census RG10/4371 Folio 81 p33
Cowcliffe Lane Huddersfield
Squire Sutcliffe Head Mar 28
Ellen Sutcliffe Wife Mar 23
Martha Sutcliffe Dau Unm 4
Harry Sutcliffe Son Unm 2
Sam Sutcliffe Son Unm 2mths
This at least suggests that Squire Sutcliffe married an Ellen, and the GRO reference of Dec 1865 accounts for the age of the children.
I would apply for the marriage certificate again and leave the spouse field blank. I know this is a risk, but it may be that she is shown as say Elizabeth Ellen, or the handwriting may not be clear enough for some-one to read Hartley.
Good luck, Colin
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Thankyou for your reply. A good idea and I will try that!
I have searched the census for 1861 1871 1881 1901 and have his death cert. He died in 1910 aged 58. British Death Certs. don't give much information unfortunately.
I live in Australia where they give date and place of birth parents name and even name of issue.
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Applied for the marriage certificate of Squire Sutcliffe with what information and it came back that the bride was Ellen Berry. In 1901 Ellen Sutcliffe was still alive. So British Death Certs show the maiden name of the deceased?
Mama
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Death certificates shown only the name 'at death'......which can be frustrating, especially if the wife re-married after her husbands death.
Why did you think she was Ellen HARTLEY?
Were you going from one of the children's birth certificates ?
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Thankyou for your reply. That was the name given on the death certificate of Harry Sutcliffe, my grandfather.
Mama
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Hi Mama
I've a few suggestions for you which are a bit a bit far-fetched but it's funny how something you've dismissed as improbable turns out to be correct.
1. What if Ellen Hartley married Mr. Berry who died and then married Squire Sutcliffe which would explain the different name on the certificate. Her name should have been given as Berry, formerly Hartley and she should be described as widow but I don't know how carefully things were recorded.
(I can't find a record of a Hartley/Berry marriage on FreeBMD and, if her age is correct on the 1871 census, she must have been married very young and for a very short time!)
2. Assuming she was Ellen Berry and that she and your grandfather outlived Squire, could she have re-married and her new name (Hartley) have been shown on his death certificate? It sounded as if you didn't know when she died so you won't know what name was on her death certificate. It may be worth searching for a marriage after 1910.
3. You say you were told that she married Squire Sutcliffe - could your informant have been muddled? FreeBMD shows that an Ellen Hartley married either John Sutcliffe or James Hartley in the 1st qtr of 1861 in Skipton (GRO ref 9a 61) It could mean that both John and Squire Sutcliffe married Ellen's and your informant got them the wrong way round. It's more likely to be a red herring! Is there a John Sutcliffe in your tree?
I hope this helps
Jud
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Thankyou Jud.
I intend to apply for Harry Sutcliffe's birth certificate. He was born 17th December 1869 in Huddersfield
Ellen Sutcliffe (Berry or Hartley) died in Lancashire(or maybe even Yorks as she had a daughter there) on 17th September 1924.
Are you able to look up the folio etc. for the above?
Mama
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In the index of BMD's - 1837online - it shows her death - Sept quarter 1924
Sutcliffe Ellen aged 77 Huddersfield Vol 9a Page 307
(There is no way of getting the death certificate information without applying for a copy.)
If you knew where she was buried, it may be possible to find a record from the Church or cemetery.
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I have just checked ther marriage index - and there is an entry for
Ellen Berry Dec quarter 1865 at Huddersfield 9a 475.
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Do I need a Folio Number for the birth certificate of Harry Sutcliffe bornDec.Quarter 1869 at Huddersfield.
Then maybe I can confirm his mother's name or can anyone tell by records who she was? Ellen Berry or Ellen Hartley.
Mama
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You need to order the certificate to discover his mother's maiden name -
looking on the index - there is a Henry Sutcliffe born Dec quarter 1869 in Huddersfield Vol 9a Page 287
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I applied for a Birth Certificate for the fol. etc. number quoted and it apparently was not correct, I got someone born in August 21st 1869 called Henry and with different parents, Could you please check for a HARRY SUTCLIFFE born 7th December 1869 Father was Squire Abraham Sutcliffe? If anyone wants a certificate for Henry Sutcliffe born 25.8.1869 contact me.
Thanks, Mama
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Sorry it was the wrong one -
but there are no other's for that quarter....
How are you so sure of his date of birth ?
There is a birth reg. in the previous quarter -
Sept quarter 1869 - Harry Sutcliffe Huddersfield 9a 327
http://www.1837online.com/Trace2web/LogonServlet
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That date was given to me by a relative and I don't know how I can verify it other than getting his certificate. Any suggestions? I know that his father was Squire Abraham Sutcliffe and mother was Ellen.
Thanks,
Mama
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Hi all
I don't know if this will be any help but I have been trying to trace this family through the various census and notice that the male children of Squire and Ellen always used the names Harry, Sam and Joe and Tom as opposed to Henry, Samuel etc., which makes me think the birth record above for Harry is probably the correct one as opposed to Henry.
Tried to find birth details for the other children but there are too many within the timescales except for Sam. As Sam was only 2 months old in 1871 you can get a definite fix on his birth year. I think this may be his birth record:
March Q 1871 Huddersfield - Sam Sutcliffe Vol 9a Page 361
On Harry Suttcliffe's death certificate does it give a relationship for Ellen Hartley?
On the marriage cert you have for Squire is his father's name and occupation correct?
Checked the 1861 census for Ellen Hartley born Leeds, 5 years either side of Squire's age and couldn't find a match but did find a Ellen Berry b Leeds 1848 which ties in with Ellen Sutcliffe's age.
Just trying to think on a different track.
Best of luck.
Sheila
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Thankyou for your reply. Yes Harry's Death Cert. sites Ellen Hartley as his mother However Squire Abraham married Ellen Berry in Huddersfield Dec. 1865. I have a copy of their Marriage cert. in 1865 Dec. Qtr. I applied for it to try and find who his mother was. "The Squire" was raised by his Grandmother and I rather suspect that his mother was Mary Wood but haven't found out when he became Sutcliffe.
I think that this is your man in 1861.(Someone in Rootsweb kindly looked this up.
RG9/3260 Huddersfield Kirkheaton Folio 33
Dalton.
Mary Wood abt 1781 Upperheaton, Yorkshire, England Head
Squire A S Wood abt 1843 Deighton, Yorkshire, England Grandson
Oldfield Wood 8y? abt 1853 Dalton, Yorkshire, England Grandson.
On his tombstone it says that he was born in Lindley and that concurs with the 1871 census.
A bit of a mystery!
Mama
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This is the family in 1851 - HO107/2294
at Greenside, Kirkheaton
Mary WOOD Head 70 widow domestic B: Kirkheaton
Richard WOOD son 30 son Unm hand loom 'vesting?' weaver B:Kirkheaton
Nanny WOOD dau 31 dau Unm at home - domestic B: Kirkheaton
Squire WOOD SUTCLIFFE 8 grandson day scholar B: Deighton
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Kathy Thankyou.
Firstly I was given the wrong date by a relative. On his Cemetary details he died on 23.6.1930 aged 61. There is a possibility that he was born in 1868. Are you able to find Harry Sutcliffe in the second half of 1868 or is that too much trouble. I know the boys only had one name each and they were Harry Tom and Joe. I think Sam must have died young as he was not mentioned on 1881 census. There seemed to be a few years between Harry and Joe etc. Perhaps something happened to Ellen "Berry" at that time but it would be a great co-incidence that he married another "Ellen".
Mama
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Is there any way that his date of birth could have been confused by an american style of writing the date....
7th December 1869 7/12/69 or in USA 12/7/69 ?? (12th July in GB)
Apart from the birth reg. in Sept. q. 1869 - Huddersfield 9a 287
I have checked the index from Mid 1868 -
the only Harry's
Sept. q. 1868 Bramley 9b 368
Sept. q. 1868 Halifax 9a 493
Dec. q. 1868 Bradford Yks. 9b 217
March q. 1869 - none
June q. 1869 - none
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Thanks Kathy I may apply for the one in the September Quarter and after that I give up as it becomes a bit expensive.
mama