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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: RainySK on Wednesday 01 January 25 04:48 GMT (UK)
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Happy new year all
I am returning to Family History research after quite a long break. DNA research was not around when i first started so i am brand new to this side of research and i am hoping it will be the key to unlocking the biggest mystery in my family tree.
My maternal grandmother was born with "Illegitimate" on her birth certificate under father, and as a result he is unnamed on her marriage and death cert also.
The closest living relative to my grandmother would be my mum so i had her do an ancestry DNA test in the hopes that we could find a relative following her maternal matches.
Here is where iv come unstuck I'm not sure who and how to approach these unknown matches, I feel a little like a jerk saying hay could your relative be the father of an illegitimate child considering the implications that could bring up.
what do DNA experts recommend to do in a situation like this?
thank you for your help
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Without listing your Mum’s DNA matches by their actual names can you list the unknowns by the cM amount that they share with your Mum?
Simply getting any sort of response out of a DNA Match is in my book a major success, but if you do not try you may not know.
With the unknowns that I have had I state in a message that we are related via DNA, but I do not know how and would you like to help me. Anyone taking a DNA test should be aware that skeleton’s in the past might be uncovered and hence any DNA match contacted should be responsive. After all your Mum’s DNA that she shares with them will show in their own DNA Match list and we have had some of ours make first contact with us.
If your Mum’s unknown Grandfather went on to have more children and then his Grandchildren would be Half First Cousins to your Mum and if they took a DNA test then the mean shared DNA would be a mean 449cM between them and your Mum.
There are a range of shared DNA with any relationship and we use a site called DNA Painter, Shared cM Project where we enter the cM value and the tool responds with possibilities regarding relationships and a percentage likelyhood is displayed. This helps in guiding initial research.
If DNA matches have a Family Tree then access to the tree can help, any live person will show as Private so you would need to have access to view live people and the tree owner can be contacted with the request.
In reality what you may be faced with is unknown matches where the Most Recent Common Ancestor with your Mum may not be her unknown Grandfather but someone more distant and to find likely candidates does require tree building. During the tree build a series of likely Father’s could possibly be identified and often this can be one of perhaps a few Brothers.
With each DNA match it is also useful to click on the Shared Matches tab to see them, pictures may develop and signing up with Ancestry’s Pro Tools will enable the cM that each Shared Match has not only with your Mum but with the selected DNA match.
What I try to do is to build shared DNA matches into the family tree of the DNA match who is the home person in the tree that I am building around them.
It is a detective hunt and slowly a prime candidate can emerge.
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I found the first thing I needed to do is to sort matches into family groups (ancestry allows you to colour code matches into groups). So if you can find a relative on your mother's father's side of the family (or get one or two to do a test ;D), these should identify which matches can be discounted in terms of who might help you find your great grandfather.
You may also find it helpful if you can load a skeleton family tree (ancestors only) which you can associate with your test which again will help you sort your matches.
My second cousins (ie people with whom I share a great grandparent) have been mostly within the range of 100 cM to 350 cM - so if you have a direct descendant from the unknown great grandfather who has done an ancestry test, they should quite noticeable.
I did my test to check out a few unknowns, and have resolved 2 of the three target questions. I also found some eye-rolling info I was not aware of :o
Good luck
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Grouping matches has already been mentioned and it's the foundation everything is then built on.
Building the trees of matches is a big part of solving where mystery matches fit in relation to each other, build their trees as deep and wide as possible on what are known as 'floating branches', as the name suggests the branches aren't connected to any others but as they are researched and expanded some will merge and join others. One of my floating branches now has over 40 matches linked to each other but initially it started as 40 distinct and separate branches. The groundwork building those trees before contacting a match can be useful, I say that in hindsight after eagerly sending message to a match when my results first came back, at that point they could see who our shared matches were and they included several cousins, children and even grandchildren of my match but I was unaware of that as I rushed in before any tree building attempts. They did reply with 'we're not related' despite sharing almost 200cM with me which I can now see is because there is a branch of their tree with a questionable character in it, they appear to have disowned that branch and it's the one I have the strongest connection to.
Accuracy of trees and lack of responses to messages are the biggest issues I've had to overcome but I find it better to do my own research rather than accept what others claim. I've used the instant download option for the odd cert here and there to disprove other trees. It's probably not the best idea as dna trumps anything on paper but it has shown there's a batch of trees that appear to be more fiction than fact.
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As others have mentioned, the first step is to group the matches. If you assign your larger matches to three groups that fit with the grandparents families you know, in theory the last cluster of big matches should point to the family of her missing grandparent.
I did this with my Nan’s mystery grandparent - same scenario, she’s still living, her mother was illegitimate, and my Nan kindly did a DNA test for me. I only used the larger matches >70cM to cluster with. When I had identified a group who didn’t fit any of the known grandparents, I set about building their family tree and working out how they were all related to each other. I used https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4 this website to try and figure out the possible relationships to my Nan. It took a lot of hard work, but I’ve now confidently narrowed it down to two brothers (who funnily enough lived in the next household to her teenage grandmother in the census taken the year before the pregnancy!). Neither had any living legitimate children whose descendants might pop up on a DNA test so I doubt I’ll ever know for certain unfortunately.
The biggest challenge I’ve found has been pedigree collapse when you’re dealing with small towns where everyone was related one way or another, so be wary of drawing conclusions from smaller matches is my advice!
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Deleted
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It took a lot of hard work, but I’ve now confidently narrowed it down to two brothers (who funnily enough lived in the next household to her teenage grandmother in the census taken the year before the pregnancy!).
This is a good reminder to look at who near-neighbours are when building a tree. Unfortunately 1911/1921 England and Wales census's don't show neighbours on the source document, so it's a bit more difficult to look!
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Thank you everyone for your prompt replies, I was unfortunately delayed with work, so I didn’t manage to get back on yesterday.
I will get back into ancestry and start by grouping my matches as everyone has suggested, iv only had the results since just before Christmas so I haven’t had a lot of time to dig in and have a look as this time of yeas has been busy I didn’t realise there was a grouping function that is going to be very helpful!
Biggles50, I did a quick skim of that thread that looks like it is going to be very helpful I have pined it to read in depth, you are also the second person I have heard mention Gedmatch as a DNA search tool, would you recommend I upload my mums results there also?
I did separate the matches by the maternal line (found that button easy enough LoL)
Biggles50 here are the matches that have shown up on the front page, the close family matches are all known and I have linked them to the appropriate people in the tree.
These are the results that are listed under extended family. I have copied and pasted straight from ancestry deleting the names and just leaving initials.
W S
2nd cousin
Maternal side
236 cM | 3% shared DNA
Unlinked tree
R G 1
2nd cousin
Maternal side
191 cM | 3% shared DNA
Public linked tree
1,477 people
T H
3rd cousin
Maternal side
94 cM | 1% shared DNA
No trees
K L
2nd cousin 2x removed or half 2nd cousin 1x removed
Maternal side
93 cM | 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
42 people
S B
2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
91 cM | 1% shared DNA
Distant Family
R C
half 2nd cousin 1x removed or 2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
64 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Private linked tree
326 people
m b
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 3rd cousin
Maternal side
54 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Private unlinked tree
A G
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
54 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Unlinked tree
P ON
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 3rd cousin
Maternal side
54 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
14 people
M S
half 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin 1x removed
Maternal side
50 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Tree unavailable
S J
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
48 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
11 people
G P
half 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin 1x removed
Maternal side
48 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
28 people
S-A M
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 3rd cousin
Maternal side
46 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
3,433 people
A S
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
46 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Unlinked tree
K R
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
45 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Unlinked tree
cc47
half 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin 1x removed
Maternal side
45 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
15 people
R.B.
half 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin 1x removed
Maternal side
43 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
30 people
J M S
3rd cousin 1x removed or half 2nd cousin 2x removed
Maternal side
43 cM | < 1% shared DNA
Public linked tree
43 people
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It's certainly worth downloading the raw data and uploading to other sites to catch matches that are on other platforms. As the sites interpret result differently they aren't always a like for like comparison and the shared cM figures may not be as accurate as Ancestry but it's about finding matches as much as anything else. I'm not a fan of MyHeritage as the shared cM figures can be way out and the relationship predictions are just weird (by default they assume every match is a full relative and it takes a bit of digging to view the half relative options), but did find an important match on there.
It was through an MH match I learned my mother is an NPE (her birth cert names the wrong man as her father), so I'm trying to find a grandfather too though I had a big mystery group of matches on Ancestry in the 50-200cM range so had my suspicions about mum's birth cert long ago anyway. The MH match just confirmed it.
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I had to delete #5 but essentially it pointed towards
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=863488.0
the above goes into detail on the Grouping process that I use.
Back to the topic in question.
R G 1 certainly looks the prime one to start researching, if only because they have a family tree which in turn may offer clues.
The big issue with Ancestry DNA matches is identifying them, and having enough hints available to put the match in a tree.
I managed to ID my Great Grandparents via a 240 cM match and a family tree of only two hence your matches are very workable and initially they look promising.
The key here IMO is to Group them and include the shared matches in the Group.
I’d also send messages and await responses, I try to make messages intriguing which should help to elicit a response.
Uploading DNA to other sites can help but with My Heritage they will want a fee paid to unlock the DNA Tools that they have. This site has given me three close Second Cousins who helped to break my brickwall via contact with them, and that is without using the DNA Tools available.
To learn more about Grouping search the Leeds Method and read the details, using Ancestry Grouping feature is very similar as is the method that I use and explained in the linked thread.
Good luck.
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Thank you again for the replies, ill look at loading my mums DNA on to other sites also.
this was the message that i ended up settling on after a few rewrites as i wanted to not cause any issues.
Hello, my name is S
We have a DNA match through my mums DNA test.
My mother C B nee B did a test just before Christmas and the results have shown you as a match on her Maternal line.
Her mother is Audrey Elizabeth Evans
Married Joseph Edward Brown
Born 09 APRIL 1921 • Paddington, New South Wales, Australia
Death 25/8/1982 • Blacktown, New South Wales, Australia
Would you be willing to investigate how our relatives are connected?
Cheers
I have sent it to the 5 closest matches, RG1 being one of them thanks for the recommendation biggles50 now i just cross my fingers and hope for a reply.
While i wait ill keep trying to learn better about grouping and dna matching. thank you all so much im sure ill be back soon with more questions !
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Great work
These tips will be useful to many .
& It's good to see concrete examples .
Look forward to hearing more of your progress
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RainySK that is a very polite and intriguing letter to the possible match/connection to your family. Hope you get a reply. :)
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Thank you shanreagh, I'm trying to do this respectfully as i know there are some people out there that don't like the whole skeletons in the closet thing.
Well, everyone iv either hit paydirt first go or completely screwed something up LoL
I have my first reply from my messages, and it was RG1 yay!
They gave me access to look at their private tree on ancestry and said happy hunting.
Now here is the issue when you go into the DNA page and click on RG1 it states there is no common ancestors on the left between them and my mum, there is also no green in the family tree bit on the right.
I have manually gone into the tree and searched the tree for people in the right time frame that would be of similar names and ages just in case the system missed something and zip.
Now what do I do, do I go back to them and play dumb and say I don’t know why there is no match, or do I tell them I know that nan is illegitimate, and I think someone in their tree could be the dad?
Or iv completely stuffed something up somehow and I have no clue……..
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I think that is exactly the right approach .
The wording is always important just say that you don't know your nans birth father.
Also add father unknown deceased to your nan on the tree that will help matches to understand why there are no surnames in common .
Can you go through the surnames on RG s tree and put them in a search of your DNA matches one by one
There may be a cluster of matches around one of the surnames
Then you could change name on tree from unknown .to maybe GREEN or whatever
Have you got protools to see how your matches connect to each other .?
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I have dozens of interlinked matches with trees but no shared surnames. Their trees can go back for generations but rarely have sources and in most cases a couple of birth searches is all it takes to uncover the illegitimate ancestor they are overlooking or the wrong maiden name of a female
somewhere. Many are obviously just 'copy and paste' from trees claiming links to Lords and Royals with no regard given to the dna results, I never cease to be amazed how their trees show alleged ancestors we have being Royalty in the early 1800's and knife polishers in Sheffield by 1850.
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Afternoon all,
As i have had no more responses from any of my messages, i stared going back through my paperwork to see if i missed anything at all.
What i noticed that i hadn't before is that Elizabeth A Evans was sent from Narrandera NSW to Sydney to give birth to her Illegitimate child. Quite a distance away, so with that little nugget i returned to the tree that was shared with me by RG1 and searched the tree for males in the area of Narrandera in 1920 (by count back approximate conception would be Aug 1920)
The only Males that fit this criteria were :
Christopher Styman Born 1881
Christopher RF Styman Born 1909
Persival RE Styman Born 1911
Reginald JE Styman Born 1915
This looks like a family to me so i threw the names in to ancestry and found a wife for the first Christopher Rachel A Kennewell also 2 more daughters Evelyn EG Styman Born 1908 and Dorothy HR Styman Born 1927
Would it be unrealistic to start looking into this family (the dad because I doubt the son's would be old enough to get a 33yo pregnant) as a possibility for the Illegitimate father?
Also is there a way if i find this man in a public tree to see if that person has done a dna test?
Also is there electoral rolls or similar for 1920-1919 for that area i have googled looking for some but i cant find anything
i hope that all made sense
Cheers
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Small Update
I have moved to matches with a smaller cM (between 150 and 50) that have public trees and found 3 more people that mum matches to with the same man in their tree,
Christopher Styman Born 1881 Morpeth Died 1949 Narrandera
I have grouped them all together in one colour and sent them all a message hoping some one will write back
cross your fingers guys, i couldn't possibly be this lucky to find him right?
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Going wide and deep is crucial as a surprising number of matches can get scooped up and added into the tree as a result. We can only work with what we know so the more we learn the better (in my opinion anyway).
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Update, we are now up to 7 people with a DNA match to mum that all have this Christopher Styman in their tree. None of them have any other known ancestor in mums tree.
My next step is i found out yesterday that my cousin, mums sisters son has done an ancestry DNA test so waiting for his results to see if any of his show up a tree with this guy in it.
My Question to you all is, i want to purchase another DNA test. Mum has 1 remaining sister alive should i test her first or myself to try and break through this and confirm as best we can?
What other steps can you guys recommend that i may have overlooked?
Thank you all so much for your help :)
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As your mother has tested there is nothing to gain by testing yourself in terms of your maternal dna.
The last of my aunts/uncles passed 20 years ago and both my parents well over 30 years ago, all the opportunities their dna could have brought to my research are just a dream, In your situation I would test the surviving sister whilst there is still the option to do so.
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thank you glen i appreciate the advice
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Hi all,
I think i have found the key person to confirm who the father is of the illegitimate child.
A newer match showed up in mums results with an even higher cM than the others.
M S
Managed by R S
1st cousin 1x removed or half grandaunt
Maternal side
424 cM | 6% shared DNA
W S
2nd cousin or half 1st cousin 1x removed
Maternal side
236 cM | 3% shared DNA
Unlinked tree
WS was in my first group of matches but there was no tree so i couldn't find any info on them.
When MS Showed up with a larger cM amount I sent the same message that i had to all the other matches.
Turns out MS is Mother WS is son and RS is wife of WS!!! New group made in my DNA matches to keep them all together.
Unfortunately RS hasn't done a lot of research into MS's family tree but she was able to give me the parents names, with that info i was able to find their marriage. the only marriage in NSW with those names in 100 years. John L Carter and Rita ......
(I got the Australian section of the forum to check me and iv ordered the transcript to confirm)
This gave me the brides maiden name and its Styman. Rita Styman is Christopher Styman's sister.
is this it is this the golden nugget iv been looking for?
Can anyone see any flaws here?
What is my next step?
(apart from waiting for aunts DNA to confirm all the same DNA matches)
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Well everyone I was wrong The dad wasn't Christopher after all it was his younger brother !!!!!!!!!!
Thanks goes to a brilliant Roots Chat member Sparrett who introduced me to the ability to search some hospital records in which i found the temporary foster records of the illegitimate baby and the records name dad!
Drum roll please Henry Styman Christophers younger brother and Rita's older brother.
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&docid=INDEX2341781
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Nice when everything falls into place. I'm on a roll this week linking matches as soon as they appear (some names were already in my ocean sized tree but it looks like they only got the kits at christmas). The downside is they are all in a part of my tree that's pretty well sorted and I'm suddenly getting zero matches for the real problem areas I would like to sort but if it was esy then there would be no fun.