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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: mackers on Sunday 29 December 24 21:12 GMT (UK)
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Have a question about mixed marriages around the late 1800s. Concerning a marriage between a Church of Ireland and Catholic. The marriage took place in Belfast St Anne's Cathedral where it states under licence? In fact the two people concerned brother and and the others sister also got married in the same church. And neither couple changed their religion. Does anyone know just what the ins and outs of this meant legally? As it where?
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1870 and 1871 Marriage Acts define the legal position.
Before the 1870 Act, any marriage by a Catholic priest of a Protestant was legally null and void.
Text of 1870 Act
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1870/act/110/enacted/en/print.html (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1870/act/110/enacted/en/print.html)
Text of 1871 Act
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1871/act/49/enacted/en/print.html (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1871/act/49/enacted/en/print.html)
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Before the 1870 Act, any marriage by a Catholic priest of a Protestant was legally null and void.
Of course that didn't mean they didn't happen.
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where it states under licence?
This is simply the advance notification required for all Catholic marriages since 1864. Providing the details regarding the parties seen on what becomes the marriage registration.
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St.Anne’s is COI, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Anne%27s_Cathedral,_Belfast
I think by licence is when the couple buy a licence to marry quickly rather than having banns read.
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Obtaining a licence was simply part of the normal procedure when marrying in church. You had 3 options:
Marrying after banns had been read in church 3 times
A licence
A special licence
Banns was the cheapest method but normally involved a wait of several weeks so the banns could be read out each Sunday. Licence was quicker, but more expensive. It was useful if you were in a hurry eg if the bride was heavily pregnant, or if you wanted greater privacy. It was also favoured by the gentry so they didn’t have to stoop to having banns read. Special licences were rare. They were discretionary and used when there was something unusual about the marriage eg if someone wanted or needed to marry other than in a church eg if they were terminally ill in hospital, or in prison. I think also if neither party resided in the parish where the marriage was taking place.
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1870 and 1871 Marriage Acts define the legal position.
Before the 1870 Act, any marriage by a Catholic priest of a Protestant was legally null and void.
Text of 1870 Act
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1870/act/110/enacted/en/print.html (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1870/act/110/enacted/en/print.html)
Text of 1871 Act
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1871/act/49/enacted/en/print.html (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1871/act/49/enacted/en/print.html)
Thanks the 71 act explains the situation.
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It was perfectly legal for a R.C and a Protestant to marry in the C of I, whereas as Wexflyer indicated it was illegal for R.C. priests to conduct a mixed marriage until 1870.
The pre-1870 position is clear in the Report of the Royal Commission on the Laws of Marriage, 1868.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Report_of_the_Royal_Commission_on_the_La/EcsUAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PR12
However the civil legalities of mixed-faith marriage in a R.C chapel differed from the theological & practical realities in terms of the R.C. Council of Trent and 1850 Synod of Thurles, plus Ne Temere (1907).
The Synod of Thurles stating that in the future a dispensation from the Holy See was needed for a mixed marriage to occur, that guarantees had to be given that the Catholic party could continue to practise the faith, and that the children would be brought up in the Catholic faith. In practice, though, the legislation was regularly ignored and it was customary for boys to be brought up in the faith of their fathers and girls in the faith of their mothers. [catholicbishops.ie Synods]
It was much simpler if they married at a Registrar's Office OR in the Church of Ireland and St Anne's married 500-600 couples a year 1890's-1910's.
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I think by licence is when the couple buy a licence to marry quickly rather than having banns read.
Banns was the cheapest method but normally involved a wait of several weeks so the banns could be read out each Sunday. Licence was quicker, but more expensive....Special licences were rare
Licence was the norm in Ireland whereas Banns were the norm in England. The cost of a licence in Ireland was a fraction of what it was in England.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757062.msg6080163#msg6080163
"We are informed, however, that in Ireland, on account of the cheapness of licences, which are stated to cost not more than 5s., marriage by banns according to the rites of the Established Church is much less frequent (at all events in the province of Dublin) than marriage by licence."
Report of the Royal Commission on the Laws of Marriage, 1868 [bottom of page xi].
Presbyterian Licences were only 5s. [same 1868 England/Ireland/Scotland Royal Commission comparison & summary]
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hl4s20&seq=17&q1=%22cost+is+5s%22
next page "Almost all marriages among the Irish Presbyterians take place by licence, although more costly, and giving more trouble, than the publication of banns."
In England and Wales the cost of a common licence was £2 10s in a Register Office vs £4 8s in Church, mentioned in the preceeding English section (page vii) and detailed
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hl4s20&seq=74&q1=%22expenses+of+Marriage%22&start=1
with other English examples from 1854 snipped in the RootsChat thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757062.27
See also the final table of the above RootsChat that I posted from Eleventh Annual Report of the Registrar General (Ireland) 1874 with data for marriage modes 1845-1874 and compare to the English situation in the yellowed image above where over 80% were by Banns.
GRO Registrar General (Ireland) Reports
Ireland 1887: Of the 3,640 Marriages according to the rites of the late Established Church, 36 were by special licence, 3,014 by licence, 509 after the publication of banns, 5 on Registrar's certificate, and in 76 instances there was no information afforded as to which of the foregoing methods was adopted.
Ireland 1900 37th Report:
Of the 3,297 Marriages according to the rites of the Church of Ireland, 42 were by special licence, 2,860 by licence, 362 after the publication of banns, 7 on Registrar's certificate, and in 26 instances there was no information afforded as to which of these methods was adopted.
Marriages could only be solemnized in C of I or Presbyterian Churches until Autumn 1863 prior to the Marriage Law (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1863 [8th June], Methodist and many of the Presbyterian variations required the presence of a Registrar and a Marriage Licence and were recorded in the Registrar's books.
The Registration of Marriages (Ireland) Act, 1863 [28th July, effective 1 Jan 1864] brought about R.C. civil marriages but unlike the Protestant churches also involved the Registrar as the completed Certificate/form had to be returned to him afterwards for it to be recorded in the Sub-District R.C. ledger.
Special licences granted by the eg by the Bishop of Down/Archbishop of Armagh or the Presbyterian Moderators etc [list of them #37 of 1870 Act per Wexflyer] to marry at any convenient time at any place in Ireland, sometimes at home, cost ££ and involved the Registrar being recorded subsequent to the ceremony in his District Ledger.
Occasionally 2 entries can by found for these:
- the one by the Registrar in the local Registrar Office Book (the same book he used for couples that married in his office) but with an additional marginal registered by me on date (similar to R.C ones in that respect)
- and an entry by the presiding minister if the Rev. erroneously also recorded it in his Church pair of Marriage Ledgers on the day.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09758/5541744.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09758/5541650.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09690/5514636.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09690/5514628.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09232/5340657.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09232/5340699.pdf
From the ones I came across the Presbyterian Moderators seemed to grant more Special Licences then the C of I Bishops.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1882/10955/8004516.pdf
Caroline Dawson married 28 Jun 1866 in Newry R.C and Newry Registrar's Office.[/list]
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Marriages could only be solemnized in C of I or Presbyterian Churches until Autumn 1863 prior to the Marriage Law (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1863 [8th June], Methodist and many of the Presbyterian variations required the presence of a Registrar and a Marriage Licence and were recorded in the Registrar's books.
Very interesting post. Thank you,
I am not so sure about the need for a Registrar to attend early Methodist marriages. I have seen quite a few where the Registrar was not present. Donegall Square Methodist church has marriages from 1835 onwards, which is 10 years before Registrars were first appointed.
According to Rev Robin Roddie (Edgehill Theological College historian) the problems the Methodists faced, apart from a lingering wish to retain their links with the Church of Ireland, was that many of their Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriage and also a shortage of qualified Ministers. (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers).
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I am not so sure about the need for a Registrar to attend early Methodist marriages
Elwyn
They were only able to apply and receive a pair of Marriage Books after the 1863 Act. I'm presuming this one https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1863/act/27/enacted/en/print.html under clause 12 Registration of places of public worship on application of trustee, &c. That, the original 1844 Act and the 1870/71 Acts don't appear on Legislation gov uk as have been incorporated in / replaced by subsequent ones. Google doesn't produce the one mentioned below by the MHS of I.
The development of the General Register Office of Ireland http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Essays&mno=2004 states "Throughout the latter part of the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century additional legislation was introduced which had implications for the registration system. For example, the Marriage Law (Ireland) Amendment Act 1863 (26 & 27 Vict., c.27) dispensed with the need for registrars to attend marriages in Protestant Dissenting Churches, and other Christian denominations, and provided for the registration of such marriages by the celebrant."
Home / Irish Methodist Baptismal and Marriage Records > Marriage Records
Methodist preaching houses or chapels were not formally licenced for marriage until after the ‘Registered Separate Buildings’ Act of August 1863. Prior to that, from 1845, it was possible to conduct a marriage in a Methodist chapel but only in the presence of a District Registrar who entered the record of the marriage into the Superintendent’s Registrar’s book and retained the record and not the local minister.
After 1863 when Methodist buildings in Ireland were licenced for marriages the records were held by the local Methodist church. The information recorded is the same as appears in civil marriage records... the name of the minister who celebrated the marriage is also recorded.
https://methodisthistoryireland.org/irish-methodist-baptismal-and-marriage-records/
Donegall Square Methodist may have kept their own record of marriages in much the same way as R.C churches did pre & post 1864.
The 1st marriage by the useages of the Methodist Church in Donegall Sq East Wesleyan Methodist
photo https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=881208504103039&id=100066416921231
now the Ulster Bank https://www.geograph.ie/photo/383985
was on 9 Nov 1863 under GRONI church code 736 book 1 entry 1 M/1863/B1/736/1/1 all previous are under /570/ Belfast Registrar Office or Registrar attended.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1863/09645/5497946.pdf
Married in the above Registered Building according to the useages of the Wesleyan Methodist Church, by Licence.
for comparison here is 17 Sep 1862 M/1862/B1/570/29/252
Married in the above Registered building under the Provisions of the Act 7 & 8 Vic Cap 81, by Licence
Performed by the Registrar with the Officiating Minister Joseph McKay signing as a Witness.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1862/09625/5490685.pdf
Registered Building confuses the issue, the wording afterwards that matters, they were performed under the civil provisions of the 1844/5 Marriage Act with the Registrar present issuing any legal copies desired by the bride & groom.
College Street South Reformed Presbyterian 25 Nov 1862 M/1862/B1/570/29/283 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1862/09625/5490695.pdf
vs 13 May 1864 M/1863/B1/780/1/3 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11607/8272429.pdf
Under the original Marriages (Ireland) Act 1844 paragraphs LXIII & LXIV only C of I, Presbyterian, Quaker & Jewish venues were to be provided with duplicate books in which to record their marriages.
https://www.legislation.ie/eli/1844/act/81/section/63/enacted/en/html
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20(by%20date)&active=yes&mno=4047
Whilst Banbridge Remonstrant (N.S.) Presby aka 1st (N.S.) Presby Banbridge was issued with books 1846 as was First Dromore Remonstrant (N.S.) Presby the Reformed Presby churches + Baptists also only got theirs late 1863/64.
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... the original 1844 Act and the 1870/71 Acts don't appear on Legislation gov uk as have been incorporated in / replaced by subsequent ones.
The full text of the 1844 Marriages Ireland Act is available here
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1844/act/81/enacted/en/print.html (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1844/act/81/enacted/en/print.html)
As an aside, one of the main reasons, maybe the principal reason, the 1844 Act did not cover Catholic marriages is that the Catholic clergy were worried that civil registration would provide legal evidence to convict them of performing illegal mixed marriages.
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Home / Irish Methodist Baptismal and Marriage Records > Marriage Records
Methodist preaching houses or chapels were not formally licenced for marriage until after the ‘Registered Separate Buildings’ Act of August 1863. Prior to that, from 1845, it was possible to conduct a marriage in a Methodist chapel but only in the presence of a District Registrar who entered the record of the marriage into the Superintendent’s Registrar’s book and retained the record and not the local minister.
After 1863 when Methodist buildings in Ireland were licenced for marriages the records were held by the local Methodist church. The information recorded is the same as appears in civil marriage records... the name of the minister who celebrated the marriage is also recorded.
https://methodisthistoryireland.org/irish-methodist-baptismal-and-marriage-records/
Donegall Square Methodist may have kept their own record of marriages in much the same way as R.C churches did pre & post 1864.
The 1st marriage by the useages of the Methodist Church in Donegall Sq East Wesleyan Methodist
photo https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=881208504103039&id=100066416921231
now the Ulster Bank https://www.geograph.ie/photo/383985
was on 9 Nov 1863 under GRONI church code 736 book 1 entry 1 M/1863/B1/736/1/1 all previous are under /570/ Belfast Registrar Office or Registrar attended.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1863/09645/5497946.pdf
Married in the above Registered Building according to the useages of the Wesleyan Methodist Church, by Licence.
for comparison here is 17 Sep 1862 M/1862/B1/570/29/252
Married in the above Registered building under the Provisions of the Act 7 & 8 Vic Cap 81, by L
OK but how do you account for the Methodist marriages pre 1845? (I have seen the Donegall Sq records in PRONI. There's plenty of them for those 10 years 1835 - 1845).
Not trying to trip you up but I am genuinely interested to know how they did that if it was not lawful.
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OK but how do you account for the Methodist marriages pre 1845? (I have seen the Donegall Sq records in PRONI. There's plenty of them for those 10 years 1835 - 1845).
Not trying to trip you up but I am genuinely interested to know how they did that if it was not lawful.
Your faith that the clergy followed the law is touching.
The Catholic clergy certainly didn't
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Your faith that the clergy followed the law is touching.
The Catholic clergy certainly didn't
I am pretty comfortable with them conducting unlawful marriages. I’d just like to know that was really what was happening, so I can accurately say that (when I do research for folk whose ancestors married in these denominations).
All these anomalies are intriguing. Jon_NI has mentioned that the Presbyterian church normally only married by licence. That fits my experience of researching those records too, but I do know of some Presbyterians married by banns in the late 1840s and 1850s. I know a Presbyterian Minister locally and asked him why that might have been. He doesn’t know. I'd love to know.
It’s all a bit esoteric, but it is interesting to understand the background, if you can find it.
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According to this discussion, pre-1845 marriages by dissenting ministers were valid, so long as they weren't mixed marriages
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1861-05-14/debates/781451c3-346c-4406-b461-16da7ff90174/MarriageLaw(Ireland) (https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1861-05-14/debates/781451c3-346c-4406-b461-16da7ff90174/MarriageLaw(Ireland))
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OK but how do you account for the Methodist marriages pre 1845? (I have seen the Donegall Sq records in PRONI. There's plenty of them for those 10 years 1835 - 1845).
Not trying to trip you up but I am genuinely interested to know how they did that if it was not lawful.
Offhand, I can't other than Wexflyers suggestion they flouted things.
Wex though I said the original 1844 Act and the 1870/71 Acts don't appear on Legislation gov uk I added the same legislation.ie plus a Histpop link at the end wiich has clearer text but can be troublesome to open. There is also an historic pdf print somewhere - just remembered Familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/247928
The 1844 Acts and 1868 Royal Commission definately indicate Presbyterian marriage by banns was possible just rare. Think they say the same for R.C Banns (Wexflyer?). As an aside I know in Scotland the norm was basically to read banns 3 times on one day rather than on successive Sundays per C of E.
Edit doesn't clarify the 1835-44 situation: 1844 Marriage Act:
XLIX. And be it enacted, That, except in the Case of Marriages by Roman Catholic
Priests which may now be lawfully celebrated, if any Persons shall knowingly and wilfully
intermarry after the said Thirty-first Day of March, in any Place other than the Church or
Chapel or certified Presbyterian Meeting House in which Banns of Matrimony between
the Parties shall have been duly and lawfully published, or specified in the Licence,
where the Marriage is by Licence, or the Church, Chapel, registered Building or Office,
specified in the Notice and Registrar's Certificate or Licence as aforesaid, or without due
Notice to the Registrar, or without Certificate of Notice duly issued, or without Licence
from the Registrar, in case such Notice or Licence is necessary under this Act, or in the
Absence of a Registrar where the Presence of a Registrar is necessary under this Act, or
if any Persons shall knowingly or wilfully, after the said Thirty-first Day of March,
intermarry in any certified Presbyterian Meeting House without Publication of Banns, of
any Licence, the Marriage of all such Persons, except in any Case herein-before
excepted, shall be null and void.
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I hope Mackers doesn’t mind us hijacking his thread. Clearly Methodist and Dissenting marriage practice is of no interest to him/her but I have found this discussion really helpful.
I get contacted regularly by Canadians with Methodist ancestors from the north of Ireland. They are looking for the usual records. Understanding precisely what Methodists practises were in the 1800s is very helpful. (Of course there are Wesleyans and non-Wesleyans, and they had different practices) . Knowing the overarching legislation helps too.
Every day is a school day.
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Our local Reformed Presbyterian Church, and others in the area, were not originally licensed to perform marriages so a couple wanting to marry had to get married in the Registry Office. However, it was the custom to also get married by their own minister. When these marriages were announced in the local papers the venue was always (in all the ones I've researched) recorded as having taken place at the church with their own minister officiating.
Another local dissenting Presbyterian Church was Killaig whose early minister kept a notebook recording baptisms, etc. from the time of his arrival from Scotland until shortly before his death. One entry reads "1847. 1 Sepr. Wednesday James O'Tannahill married Margaret daughter to Wm. Kennedy Ballycaghan in the Registrars Office which was recognised by me as Minr. of the Congr. in the brides father's.
Here's the entry of the marriage in the Registry Office-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1847/09326/5377006.pdf
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Our local Reformed Presbyterian Church, and others in the area, were not originally licensed to perform marriages so a couple wanting to marry had to get married in the Registry Office. However, it was the custom to also get married by their own minister. When these marriages were announced in the local papers the venue was always (in all the ones I've researched) recorded as having taken place at the church with their own minister officiating.
Another local dissenting Presbyterian Church was Killaig whose early minister kept a notebook recording baptisms, etc. from the time of his arrival from Scotland until shortly before his death. One entry reads "1847. 1 Sepr. Wednesday James O'Tannahill married Margaret daughter to Wm. Kennedy Ballycaghan in the Registrars Office which was recognised by me as Minr. of the Congr. in the brides father's.
Here's the entry of the marriage in the Registry Office-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1847/09326/5377006.pdf
Thanks for that. I note too that the 1847 religious celebration followed the Scottish custom (then) of not actually marrying in church. In this case the bride’s home. Sometimes it was the Manse, sometimes a local hotel but rarely a church.
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See also
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1842/aug/08/marriage-law-ireland (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1842/aug/08/marriage-law-ireland)
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Thanks for that. I note too that the 1847 religious celebration followed the Scottish custom (then) of not actually marrying in church. In this case the bride’s home. Sometimes it was the Manse, sometimes a local hotel but rarely a church.
Why do you consider that a Scotch custom?
It wasn't until sometime in the 1820-1840 period that a majority of Catholic marriages were performed in church rather than in a home.
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one might have to turn to acdemic research for more and delve into the Penal Law relaxation
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/marriage-in-ireland-16601925/legal-marriage/60502E13BDA90A8E0BBC367007F10189
https://pure.qub.ac.uk/en/studentTheses/the-contribution-of-presbyterian-non-subscription-to-irish-religi Chapter 2 Marriage legislation
which comments about the pre civil custom of marriage at home rather than in church.
That certainly being the case for my Scottish great-grandmother 1881 but not just for Presbyterian marriages. On 14 Dec 1856 the Kirriemuir Episcopal Scots minister slogged up to Glenhead in Lintrathen and now the long abandoned summer shooting lodge to perform her mother's marriage (father was a Co Durham born gamekeeper for the Earl of Airlie). https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14.5&lat=56.76187&lon=-3.20973&layers=1&right=OSLeisure
Certainly per above and following same faith marriage validity differed from that applicable to marriage of eg a Presbyterian and an Episcopalian. http://lisburn.com/books/history-presbyterian/history-presbyterian-2.html
Have found at least the title of the 1781 Act referred to on Hansard.
For the relief of Protestant Dissenters in certain matters therein contained.
Variant Title(s) To explain and amend so much of an act passed in the 11th year of the reign of his late majesty King George II entitled an act for allowing further time to persons in office to qualify themselves pursuant to an act entitled an act to prevent the further growth of Popery, and for giving further ease to Protestant Dissenters with respect to matrimonial contracts, as relates to the marriage of Protestant Dissenters. [2 Mar.]
https://www.qub.ac.uk/ild/?func=display_bill&id=4141
if click the [–] Further Details and link a search window opens with similar Acts, is another 1781 and one 1793
Edit: UHF also have a synopsis - Dissenters, Presbyterian marriages by Presbyterian minister legal between Presbyterians. https://ulsterhistoricalfoundation.com/genealogy-databases/statutes-passed-by-the-irish-parliament-1692-1800/24628
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Have found at least the title of the 1781 Act referred to on Hansard.
For the relief of Protestant Dissenters in certain matters therein contained.
Variant Title(s) To explain and amend so much of an act passed in the 11th year of the reign of his late majesty King George II entitled an act for allowing further time to persons in office to qualify themselves pursuant to an act entitled an act to prevent the further growth of Popery, and for giving further ease to Protestant Dissenters with respect to matrimonial contracts, as relates to the marriage of Protestant Dissenters. [2 Mar.]
https://www.qub.ac.uk/ild/?func=display_bill&id=4141
if click the [–] Further Details and link a search window opens with similar Acts, is another 1781 and one 1793
I found the same information - took a while to find it as the Act was actually passed in 1782, not 1781
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It wasn't until sometime in the 1820-1840 period that a majority of Catholic marriages were performed in church rather than in a home.
Actually The 1850 Synod of Thurles regulated about that. Was mentioned in the Bishops' article I came across in my 1st reply to Mackers. Here is the actual link https://www.catholicbishops.ie/2021/04/07/have-there-been-synods-in-ireland-in-the-past/
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It wasn't until sometime in the 1820-1840 period that a majority of Catholic marriages were performed in church rather than in a home.
Actually The 1850 Synod of Thurles regulated about. Was mentioned in the Bishops' article I came across in my 1st reply to Mackers. Here is the actual link https://www.catholicbishops.ie/2021/04/07/have-there-been-synods-in-ireland-in-the-past/
Thank you, that was not referenced as causal in the article I dimly remember, so it is interesting to see the 1850 prohibition. I don't have the reference to hand, but I beleive the practice was in decline post emancipation.
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Why do you consider that a Scotch custom?
It wasn't until sometime in the 1820-1840 period that a majority of Catholic marriages were performed in church rather than in a home.
I would also have considered it in light of a Scottish custom since these were Presbyterian marriages in Ulster with a long history of travel between Ireland and Scotland.
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I would also have considered it in light of a Scottish custom since these were Presbyterian marriages in Ulster with a long history of travel between Ireland and Scotland.
I am simply saying that if this was a common Catholic and Presbyterian practice, then isn't it obviously an Irish practice?
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it certainly seems to have been a common R.C practice too, likely accentuated by the few R.C buildings about coming out of the Penal Era and that what is termed irregular marriages in Scotland were also present. Perhaps all non-Episcopalians. I guess the emphasis has been put on 'Scottish' due to the fact the practice continued there throughout the 1900's whist it ceased in England and Ireland with civil registration.
https://www.cotyroneireland.com/misc/marriage.html
We have been persuing dissenters marriage regulations with curiousity the more familiar statement being:
" where land and property interests were involved marriages performed under the aegis of the Church of Ireland... ensured legitimacy and legality. Parish registers were kept and used to denote ties of kinship, and this was important not only in marriage but also in courts of law..."
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Well my first query fairly started an interesting debate. As it happened I imagined that it might be the case that the COI and the Catholic church were Episcopalian in nature ergo the marriage was able to go ahead. It was also the case that the same situation was the reason I cannot find a marriage for my Great great grandfather and his known Catholic wife.
Seems these marriages were pretty regular in those days. As I discovered that 3 COI brothers married 2 Catholic sisters, plus the Catholic sisters brother married their 2 husbands COI sister all in Saint Anne's. Which suggests the Catholic Church didn't seem to carry out such marriages around the late to early 1800 to 1900s? Or did they?
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Which suggests the Catholic Church didn't seem to carry out such marriages around the late to early 1800 to 1900s? Or did they?
You will sometimes see an adult baptism followed by the R.C marriage or annotation on the marriage record to that effect or about dispensations. Per the very start a Register Office followed by a C of I marriage (especially in St Anne's or similar larger cities) would be a much more common choice by the bride & groom.
Episcopalian relates to the Anglican church worldwide, not to the R.C. Church.
https://www.anglicancommunion.org/structures/member-churches.aspx
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Seems these marriages were pretty regular in those days. As I discovered that 3 COI brothers married 2 Catholic sisters, plus the Catholic sisters brother married their 2 husbands COI sister all in Saint Anne's. Which suggests the Catholic Church didn't seem to carry out such marriages around the late to early 1800 to 1900s? Or did they?
They certainly did. Might not have advertised it though, pre-1870, as it was technically illegal, with the priest subject to transportation.
As an aside, or tangential to your original question, but just to give you a flavor of what went on:
The last Countess of Anglesey (of the Annesley creation), married as her second husband a Talbot of Castletalbot Co. Wexford, and had a son by that marriage.
In her will, she (or, rather, her lawyer), went to great lengths to avoid calling her second husband her husband, or her son, her son. The only possible reason is that she married in a Catholic ceremony, so that technically her marriage was null and void, and her son was a bastard. The son inherited the bulk of her estate.
Interestingly, her son by her first marriage, the future Earl Mountnorris, was also a bastard, at least in England. The British house of Lords so determined when it refused to acknowledge him as Earl of Anglesey, on the grounds of bigamy by his father (the last Earl of Anglesey, of the Annesley creation). So her first marriage was also held to be null and void - but only in Britain.