RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: GailB on Friday 27 December 24 03:35 GMT (UK)
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Just saw a post from Ancestry on Facebook that said something exciting is coming to Ancestry. It was a 1920s typeface and fashion. So I am guessing the 1921 Census is coming. I just searched for it and found that it should be available on Ancestry in the first quarter of 2025.
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Brilliant news
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Very good news!
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Hope it's so. It'd be interesting for one or two slightly mislaid people.
TTY
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This was in an Ancestry communication this morning. I would strongly hazard that the release date is 7th January!!!! :)
"This coming year is going to be a landmark one. A brand-new collection will be launched on 7th January. While we can’t share the details just yet, we can say that it will be invaluable for those of you researching English and Welsh records. We know a lot of our members have been waiting for this one - and we’re so glad we can shortly share it with you."
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FindMyPast had the exclusive rights to publish the 1921 on their website and this ends on 31 December 2024 so, theoretically, Ancestry (or other sites) could publish online at 0.1am on 1st January 2025 if they had an agreement with NA.
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Worth knowing, I've made a note of it.
TTY
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FindMyPast had the exclusive rights to publish the 1921 on their website and this ends on 31 December 2024 so, theoretically, Ancestry (or other sites) could publish online at 0.1am on 1st January 2025 if they had an agreement with NA.
Yes and they get all the images from TNA that Findmypast scanned but NOT the transcriptions of the pages, they have to do that themselves from scratch. Perhaps no bad thing, as Findmypast made a bad job of it, doing it in strips pre-release for data protection security to comply with the 100 year rule, so their Indian transcribers could not see an entire row + it was transcribed during COVID and perhaps rushed.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/help/articles/4415870561041
https://www.findmypast.com/help/articles/360017985098-who-owns-the-1921-census
Personally, with hindsight, I think they would have been better delaying release on 6th Jan 2022 by say a month or two, doing transcriptions (as ScotlandsPeople ended up doing) after the 100 years had expired with a full page view, and giving us accurate transcripts from the get go, instead of people having to submit loads of 'suggested corrections' that they would then approve and implement on their site.
So I'm hoping Ancestry don't rush their transcribers, and names, addresses and birthplaces match the 103½ year old written document better.
FindMyPast did do a good job with the conservation and scanning, providing high resolution images and a lot of background explanation on aspects of it. Ancestry tend to be much briefer and not detail eg missing areas of earlier census, 1939 Registration District codes etc. The FindMyPast background is freely available to all, along with the old queries and answers on here.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/1921-census-of-england-and-wales with links to lists of institutions in the 1921 Census, British armed forces overseas, occupation & employment codes, etc. if wishing to browse or search for a specific place rather than names or wondering if included.
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FindMyPast had the exclusive rights to publish the 1921 on their website and this ends on 31 December 2024 so, theoretically, Ancestry (or other sites) could publish online at 0.1am on 1st January 2025 if they had an agreement with NA.
Yes and they get all the images from TNA that Findmypast scanned but NOT the transcriptions of the pages, they have to do that themselves from scratch. Perhaps no bad thing, as Findmypast made a bad job of it, doing it in strips pre-release for data protection security to comply with the 100 year rule, so their Indian transcribers could not see an entire row + it was transcribed during COVID and perhaps rushed.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/help/articles/4415870561041
https://www.findmypast.com/help/articles/360017985098-who-owns-the-1921-census
Personally, with hindsight, I think they would have been better delaying release on 6th Jan 2022 by say a month or two, doing transcriptions (as ScotlandsPeople ended up doing) after the 100 years had expired with a full page view, and giving us accurate transcripts from the get go, instead of people having to submit loads of 'suggested corrections' that they would then approve and implement on their site.
So I'm hoping Ancestry don't rush their transcribers, and names, addresses and birthplaces match the 103½ year old written document better.
FindMyPast did do a good job with the conservation and scanning, providing high resolution images and a lot of background explanation on aspects of it. Ancestry tend to be much briefer and not detail eg missing areas of earlier census, 1939 Registration District codes etc. The FindMyPast background is freely available to all, along with the old queries and answers on here.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/1921-census-of-england-and-wales with links to lists of institutions in the 1921 Census, British armed forces overseas, occupation & employment codes, etc. if wishing to browse or search for a specific place rather than names or wondering if included.
Very interesting thank you. I was talking to the archivist at my local research library and they had FindMyPast in scanning various parish records and what not. Sounded a fascinating and quite industrial process
Anyways, like the 1939 War Record, it will be nice to have the 1921 census more integrated with folk's online trees.
I wonder what "significant developments" may be out there for the UK based genealogist, or do we have to wait until 2052 for the next leap forward!! :-\
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I assume this is for the England and Wales Census and not the Scottish Census.
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Haha yes I can now pass away knowing I haven’t missed anything.
Martin
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I assume this is for the England and Wales Census and not the Scottish Census.
Indeed. I am not sure of the equivalent Scottish version
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Scotlands People already have the 1921 Scottish census.
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Scotlands People already have the 1921 Scottish census.
So it aint doubling over to Ancestry then I guess!!!
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Scotlands People already have the 1921 Scottish census.
So it aint doubling over to Ancestry then I guess!!!
No chance !!
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So it aint doubling over to Ancestry then I guess!!!
No chance !!
agreed. The 1911 Scottish Census is not on Ancestry or Findmypast, solely Scotlands People.
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Ancestry have just posted to Facebook that the 1921 England and Wales Census will be released on January 8th.
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I tried to view via Facebook link which showed a 50% discount offer, but it was down for maintenance. It is now working. But it doesn't seem to have the offer on there at the moment, so had to do Google search for Ancestry offers and found it (New Year Discount). Premium and Worldwide.
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There are a couple of threads on RootsChat that provide a link to discount Ancestry subscriptions - eg
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=832955.0
Currently worldwide subscription of £89-99 for 12 months or a UK premium subscription for £59-99.
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I got sent the half price Subscription offer to my email today and renewed with no problem!
Romilly 😊
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What’s the betting that Ancestry add the 1921 Census to the ProTools sub?
Romilly
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Looking forward to the 1921 census on Ancestry. Also I think 2025 will see a lot of Suffolk records put on there as well as the 1921 census.
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I have today accessed the 1921 Census on FindMyPast.
craggagh.
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Initially, FindMyPast charged extra to the sub for each view/download but later included it as part of the annual sub. I wonder if Ancestry will do the same. If so, it might be a better deal to get a short term sub to FindMyPast.
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Just read this from WDYTYA Magazine website - "Although Ancestry would not confirm the origins of their transcription, access given to Who Do You Think You Are? Magazine to a beta version suggests that the company has licensed the transcription from Findmypast. This will be disappointing news to family historians hoping for a new transcription of the census".
So it seems possibly they have not transcribed it themselves and they are using the FindMyPast transcriptions.
They also say the records will be included in the All UK and Ireland and the All Records subscriptions.
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I prefer FindMyPast to Ancestry any day. I only have Ancestry because of my wandering ancestors and DNA tests.
I didn't have any problems with FindMyPast transcriptions and I always look at the images as well.
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Initially, FindMyPast charged extra to the sub .... I wonder if Ancestry will do the same.
No included with standard packages https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/1921-census-ancestry
Findmypast had to recoup the digitisation costs hence they had exclusive rights for 3 years and charged pay to view then as an extra, now included in their 'Everything' package (World + newspapers).
https://www.kfhs.org.uk/event-society-report-introducing-the-1921-census-of-england-wales-2022-02-01
Regarding the TNA Royalies mentioned in above link and by Findmypast themselves - I found some background and info online from TNA in response to a FOI.
FindMyPast bore the costs of digitising the 1921 census...The National Archives receives royalties from FindMyPast as part of this digitisation contract.
Due to the size and complexity of the 1921 Census project, some relatively minor costs were incurred by The National Archives which totalled £17,346.54. These relate more broadly to our care of the records and oversight of the project as a whole.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/freedom-of-information/information-requests/findmypast-royalties-and-cost-of-digitisation/
Then in their annual reports (read the introduction then text searched keywords).
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-national-archives-annual-report-and-accounts-2021-to-2022
2021-2022Our partnership with Findmypast.com came to a highly-successful fruition this year with the release of the 1921 Census and we have made substantial returns from licensing and publishing ventures.
We benefitted from the 1921 Census release, accruing an additional £0.9 million in licensing royalties.
Total Operating Expenditure for delivering our remit as the official archive and publisher for the UK Government, and for England and Wales, was £52.8 million. Staff costs amounted to £26.5 million. Total Operating income for the financial year was £13.6 million.
Income from Licensing royalties £3,965,000. Licensing resales £130,000.
2022-2023. They discuss Commercial activity on pages 026 & 027 then income on their pages 097 & 098.
Licensing royalties: Commercial partners use accessioned content on their websites or within their online products. Royalties are due to us when their subscribers use this content, or customers purchase their products.
Licensing resales: Copies of images digitised either by a licensing partner, or by The National Archives, can be resold to another licensing partner or digitisation customer. When sold to another licensing partner, this will be alongside a license to publish and The National Archives will also benefit from future royalties. Revenue is recognised at the point where the images are transferred and the licensing partner obtains control of the right to publish.
2022-23 they received Licensing Royalties of £3,557,000 and Licensing resales £325,000.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-national-archives-annual-report-and-accounts-2022-to-2023
2023-24 The National Archives is largely funded through supply voted by Parliament. We are also partially funded by income generated through fees and charges, our commercial activities, and grants.
TNA respond to a complaint about the charge for the 1921 at the end of their 2023-24 Report (pages 163-164)
Online publication had been a significant project for a team of hundreds of conservators, technicians and transcribers, over three years. The National Archives did not have the infrastructure to do this. The commercial partnership and charging model was therefore essential.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-national-archives-annual-report-and-accounts-2023-to-2024
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Some of us would be delighted if there were a 1921 census. But at least we should get the 1926 census next year. Free, with no need for Anc*stry.
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Some of us would be delighted if there were a 1921 census. But at least we should get the 1926 census next year. Free, with no need for Anc*stry.
You might, apart from the relatives in Co. Monaghan, I won't.
You'll get the 1936 too before the 1937 appears for N.I. and that will likely be processed by Anc*stry or FindMyPast (if we are still about to see them).
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You might, apart from the relatives in Co. Monaghan, I won't.
You'll get the 1936 too before the 1937 appears for N.I. and that will likely be processed by Anc*stry or FindMyPast (if we are still about to see them).
Well, at least you can console yourself with scores of Anc*stry hints that your relatives were actually living in the US or Central Asia long before they were born. And after they died too, so as not to discriminate....
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1921 - Available in subscriptions from 7th January, according to a post I saw on Facebook
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Just looked at the UK Census Collection on Ancestry now, and the 1921 is listed!
However, when you try to open a particular record, it says, ‘this page is unavailable’.
And so I guess we’ll have to wait until tomorrow, - they 7th January.
Romilly.
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Just tried it, and it is working.
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Thanks, I’ll try again!
Romilly
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Just had a look and it is working for me fine.
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Yes, I’ve just opened several records on it.
And no additional charges!!!
Romilly 😊
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Yes, I’ve just opened several records on it.
And no additional charges!!!
Romilly 😊
Glad you can access it now. It will be the last census to be released for a long while as the 1931 census does not survive and 1941 was never taken due to the war.
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It's hit and miss, you just have to keep going back to the search results and try again.
It has thrown up a bit of a mystery for me regarding my father born 1903.
He was in his late 40s when I was born. 😉
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I wonder if the 1931 Census will end up being a bit like the Army WW1 Records, that we’re all meant to have been destroyed in a fire? A lot of them are available, although obviously a lot were destroyed.
Wouldn’t it be amazing if bits of the 1931 survived and might yet turn up?
Romilly :o
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Yes you never know with the 1931 census. I know that some parts of the 1841 census and the 1861 census have not survived such as 1841 Paddington, parts of Lambeth and St Luke, and 1861 Belgravia plus various streets across London. 1851 has some missing areas such as Felsted in Essex. It is estimated that about 5% of the 1861 census is missing.
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It's arrived on Ancestry, got email at 8.01 this morning.
I wonder if they did their own transcriptions or bought the same ones as FindMyPast
Both have my grandfather working for an employer based in Goring on Merchamyts. How they can both make this same gobbledegook word out of Thames, I can't imagine
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I wonder if they did their own transcriptions or bought the same ones as FindMyPast
see reply #24 they bought Findmypasts, that why they could release so quick after FindMyPast's 3 year exclusivity deal (remember FindMyPast released 6 Jan 2022).
https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/1921-census-ancestry
That is unfortunate due to the transcription errors scattered across names, addresses, birthplaces, occupations and employers, it would have been good to have an independent version.
Regarding the errors (I agree) the transcribers in India did not have access to the full page so could not see the context and others we see, and it may have been rushed after delays due to COVID. They were also unfamiliar with the geography.
Some/most of the transcription errors are inexcusable, especially if take time and zoom in or use Google to find that the birthplace is a village. Farms and houses in small Villages have been forced into street/town fields. But we can also blame our ancestors for mispellings, putting things in the wrong columns, birth village & county wrong way round and poor handwriting, especially for where they worked. I've submitted hundreds of corrections, sometimes several for very family member having initially found if the same error was in multiple children they didn't use common sense, look at and fix too. Prior knowledge from eg 1911 often assists with poor handwriting for birthplaces.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/freedom-of-information/information-requests/1921-census-transcription-accuracy/
How they can both make this same gobbledegook word out of Thames, I can't imagine
Can you remember if you submitted a correction to FindMyPast & they approved and changed their index?
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It's arrived on Ancestry, got email at 8.01 this morning.
I wonder if they did their own transcriptions or bought the same ones as FindMyPast
Both have my grandfather working for an employer based in Goring on Merchamyts. How they can both make this same gobbledegook word out of Thames, I can't imagine
From what I've read they are using the FindMyPast transcriptions and lots of posts in various forums pointing out identical errors on both sites.
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They don't seem to be using the full transcription they have spent money on.
In the same record I mentioned in an earlier post, for Grandmas's pob, Grampy wrote Upper Norwood, London, and for one of my uncle's pob he wrote Nunhead SE, London. These places are shown in full on FindMyPast, or at least an attempt has been made! But Ancestry just shows London for both. No mention whatever of the district for either birth.
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Just looked back at some corrections sent to FindMyPast during the free weekend last November which have been accepted. They have got in a twist with some industrial occupations.
Fruit Greasing = Fruit Preserving
Miner Dayseller = Miner dattller (properly dataller)
Thurcroft Coke and sons = Thurcroft Coke Ovens
This had one correct word out of six:
Service Secretary Weslegan Metholist Nurssiony South
corrected to:
Medical Secretary Wesleyan Methodist Missionary Society
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I wonder whether Ancestry will get a list of amendments from FindMyPast or whether they will just keep the database as it is now.
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I wonder whether Ancestry will get a list of amendments from FindMyPast or whether they will just keep the database as it is now.
I've just submitted mine to FindMyPast. First hurdle will be whether they accept/ amend the errors. And if so, whether the same changes follow on Ancestry.
My grandfather wasn't using his neatest writing on the form - I can just hear him complaining about the busybody government wasting his time in form filling!
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I have submitted lots to FindMyPast, I do it during quiet moments on here ;D. I have to confess that I rarely check to see if they have been done. I will do some today and make a note of them with the date and see what happens
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I wonder whether Ancestry will get a list of amendments from FindMyPast or whether they will just keep the database as it is now.
I suspect it will be static on Ancestry with the standard 'add or update info' so displays alternatives which will get into hints as records are added to trees. The transcripts have been connected to the relevant images and Ancestry's database structure seems to really just allow for alternative user submissions. Field updates eg brithplace are manual by a human on FindMyPast, don't think Ancestry would do a later batch reload when people have them attached to trees, too risky, so no future feedback between them.
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Corrections submitted to Findmypast are listed under My Records > My Corrections.
Unfortunately there is no date indicated but here is one I submitted end Nov or early Dec.
It has been updated on FindMyPast
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1921/RG15/24372/0151/01
and when I open him on Ancestry there is a hint for the 1921.
Belfast is spelt correctly but the rest (house number and employment) unchanged, nothing changed for daughters Bessie or Ethel.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/30961622
Occupation: Gweers Clerk. Employer: Cooperotive Stores
Place of Work: Go Practice Stores Stockton Street W Hartlepool
When I look back and pick one from about a year ago I see that FindMyPast despite ticking corrections have not incorporated them into birthplace and they still show just Northumberland. They have added it as Town when open more actions - report an error. That I find annoying as I took the time to type and submit and it is what is filled in on the return.
Employer HAS been corrected from Alwick Catte Estate to Alnwick Castle Estate.
Kilham might not be the biggest of places but it is a Parish, as was Brunton, and it was their birthplaces as indexed on the 1911 census. Morpeth, James' birthplace, definitely is a Market Town and should show as such in the household members top section also Alnwick there for George William Davison and be searchable for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilham,_Northumberland
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1921/RG15/25718/0049/01
Ancestry shows the same as Findmypast with Castle rather than Catte and just Birth Place Northumberland, England for all!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/32932761
Looks like Ancestry took the FindMyPast database as it stood a month or two ago.
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It can be challenging but fun to trace ancestors inbetween censuses, ones who were youngsters in one census, then in the next one they were in the next census living 80 miles away in service or doing an apprenticeship aged 17-21 for example.
In the 1921 census my grandfather's street of residence in the transcripts is recorded as East Ernest when it is East Street. While it would be a mammoth task reporting every error found in the transcripts, some can be a bit chucklesome.
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Just to confirm that the 1921 Census is available (for free) on the Ancestry Institution version which is available in many UK public libraries.
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I wonder whether Ancestry will get a list of amendments from FindMyPast or whether they will just keep the database as it is now.
I've just submitted mine to FindMyPast. First hurdle will be whether they accept/ amend the errors. And if so, whether the same changes follow on Ancestry.
My grandfather wasn't using his neatest writing on the form - I can just hear him complaining about the busybody government wasting his time in form filling!
Just checked the entry I sent a correction for to FindMyPast and it's all been corrected. I don't know when it actually happened, but it was only three weeks ago I sent in the corrections - pretty good service..
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Belfast is spelt correctly but the rest (house number and employment) unchanged, nothing changed for daughters Bessie or Ethel.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/30961622
Occupation: Gweers Clerk. Employer: Cooperotive Stores
Place of Work: Go Practice Stores Stockton Street W Hartlepool
I think we all know the causes of this : sometimes transcriptions are done in countries where old English script is unfamiliar, or when they are done here transcribers are told to 'type what they see', and even if they suspect a word should be something else, they resist the temptation to employ common sense.
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"common sense" doesn't always mean correct results!
My surname is often transcribed as Garrard, Gerrard, etc!
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I have found a few instances of ancestors siblings remarrying inbetween 1911 and 1921 census, and finding previously unknown marriages, same for the 1939 register.
I feel the direct line is drying up now in terms of how far back I can go so I am focusing more on the direct ancestors I have already found, such as detailing their lives all the more such as any mentions in newspapers, or looking them on electoral rolls. But I am focusing more on ancestors brothers and sisters and beefing up on their lives and their children. The 1921 census has helped me find ancestors siblings in 1921 who seemed to vanish after 1911.
I think I found a 3xgreat aunty on the 1921 census, the age in months and years fits, and she was single and a servant, living just across the river from where she was in 1911, the only fly in the ointment is her birth parish in 1921 is wrong, and about 8 miles from the actual one, and her name was Elizabeth Taylor.
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"common sense" doesn't always mean correct results! My surname is often transcribed as Garrard, Gerrard, etc!
Common sense can't really be applied to surnames. But I think it might have led to a correct spelling of Co-operative, and perhaps Gweers might have suggested Grocers, which on inspection could have been recognised ?
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My surname is often transcribed as Garrard, Gerrard, etc!
Helpfully correcting you! ;D