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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: mackers on Monday 23 December 24 19:57 GMT (UK)
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Trying to find out about the NLI on line Birth records for 1845 Drumcree Parish Catholic births and discovered many blank spaces for a fair bit of that year. Wondering if anyone else has fell foul of this situation? Does anyone know if it had to do with the Famine starting around that time? Or just a mishap while being copied?
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Personally I’d say it was simply a matter of a negligent priest who failed to enter the relevant records at the time. I have seen it elsewhere. Sometimes the priest remembers some of the details eg father’s name but not the child’s and relevant gaps are left. Probably intended to fill them in later but never did.
I can’t see any obvious link to the famine (which in any case really only got bad in 1846). Children were still being born all through the 1840s, so that’s not going to explain them being missing from the baptism records.
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Personally I’d say it was simply a matter of a negligent priest who failed to enter the relevant records at the time. I have seen it elsewhere. Sometimes the priest remembers some of the details eg father’s name but not the child’s and relevant gaps are left. Probably intended to fill them in later but never did.
I can’t see any obvious link to the famine (which in any case really only got bad in 1846). Children were still being born all through the 1840s, so that’s not going to explain them being missing from the baptism records.
Thanks for that but on the face of it and to be fair to them it other than that space of time the same priest was very detailed apart from parts of that time. Plus it also recorded the money aspect of the births for the record. Also it is only that year that ever was sketchy.
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OK. But it's inconceivable that 3 or 4 months went by without a birth in the parish. Other nearby parishes kept reliable and full records during that period.
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OK. But it's inconceivable that 3 or 4 months went by without a birth in the parish. Other nearby parishes kept reliable and full records during that period.
Exactly. Bit of a mystery.
In addition it seems that there were 2 or3 different R.C. churches in Drumcree Parish not to mention that in some cases records are deemed to be in Armagh and Lurgan and a bit of Antrim to boot? As on Irish Genealogy site.
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Looking at the register
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632568?locale=en#page/8/mode/1up
It does look like there simply weren’t any babies to baptise, could there have been something in 1844 that took men out of the area for a few months, maybe to work in Scotland, or in a nearby city.
Or is it the usual faded sections, bit too uniform for that but it’s hard to tell if writing is showing through from the page before or not.
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Population of the civil parish of Drumcree in 1851 was 14,038 of whom 11,716 lived in rural areas and the remainder in Portadown. There were 2237 inhabited houses in the parish.
https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/statistics/archive/census1851/THE_CENSUS_OF_IRELAND_1851_-_Armagh.pdf
So perhaps 5000 adult men would have to have left or gone missing in 1844 for there to be almost no births in 1845. If that had happened I feel fairly sure it would have made it into the history books.
Were there similar gaps in the Church of Ireland and Presbyterian records for 1845? (I don't know but I'd be surprised if there were).
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It may be that the priest had recorded some baptisms performed where there seem to be gaps but the record was damaged and these remaining bits are all that he was able to reconstruct later.
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The more I look at it I think it just faded areas, pity he didn’t add up the money at the end of each month.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632568?locale=en#page/10/mode/1up
September just stops but there is a gap before October that makes no sense unless there is writing there we can’t see.
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For Church of England similar era I have come across cases where there was a rough notebook and the official parish register as there was a miscopy between the rough to full for one of the children of my direct male line ancestor in Warwickshire and both are imaged online + there have the civil birth indices and 1841/51 census to refer to. On the day the entries were scribbled down, every so often, perhaps once a month, the minister or the churchwarden copied those into the parish register. So if a priest did similar on a scrap of paper then dropped/lost/lit the fire with it inadvertently all the names would essentially have been lost. He certainly wasn't baptising with the register perched on the font and counting whether he had been given 3s or 2s/6d. It looks to me as the entries for 1845 July 9,15 & 16 were written using the same quill and ink. Also there were two churches and only one 'parish' register for both.
1844 & 1845 there was a change of curates Fr Michael Monahan/ Fr William Fortescue/ Fr O’Callaghan.
1846 Parish Priest Fr Eugene Crolly took over from Fr James O’Neill https://www.drumcreeparish.com/content/view/771/322/
Father O’Neill to Fr Fortescue: William, those baptisms in St John's last week, do you have the details?
2 or3 different R.C. churches in Drumcree Parish not to mention that in some cases records are deemed to be in Armagh and Lurgan and a bit of Antrim to boot? As on Irish Genealogy site.
Mixing things here. Lurgan Poor Law District/Registration District comprised of parts of 3 counties and multiple civil/church of Ireland and R.C parishes. Drumcree R.C parish comprises today and comprised 1845 of 2 churches St. John the Baptist and St. Patrick's. https://www.drumcreeparish.com/content/view/82/319/ with the original St John's, Selshion (which was in the graveyard adjacent to the current St John's) now in the Ulster Folk Museum https://www.ulsterfolkmuseum.org/stories/catholic-church
Use the stacked squares to change to Griffiths map https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/IRL/ARM/Portadown/PortadownStJohn
Drumcree R.C parish is all in Co Armagh this coloured map may be easier to see if full screen it. https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?parish=Drumcree&churchid=213
John Grenham drew the boundaries shown on the NLI site map. https://www.johngrenham.com/blog/2024/01/03/catholic-parish-map-confession/
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A more likely explanation is that the parish priest fell ill or was otherwise unavailable, and the curates didn't take over the task of updating the register. Or the PP never received list from curates or substitute. I have seen entries in registers to the effect that Rev. XY has failed to provide list, despite requests.
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A big thanks to everyone who have tried to solve this mystery. Food for thought to try to unravel at this remove. Sadly for my need it just coincided with a birth record of my Great great Grandfather Edward from that very parish. At that very time line. But I also wondered about the Famine being maybe the main reason. But then again maybe not so much. But again thanks to all.