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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: CheshireSteve on Monday 23 December 24 13:02 GMT (UK)
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I have been looking up the Griffith family who were landowners in Esclusham and nearby in the 18th and 19th century. I see that the couple Elizabeth Griffith (1781-1858) and Robert Glyn (also Glynne) Griffith (1778-1857) were around in the 1851 census, but it seems they had moved away from their house at Lloftwen in Coedpoeth. I wonder if someone can tell me where they were? I think the 1841 census is missing.
Elizabeth Griffith inherited the estate of her father Edward Griffith (wife Sarah) around 1800. I have yet to discover Edward's father, but there is a property transaction in 1724 which mentions "Anne Griffith of Morton Wallicorum, co. Denb., widow, and her son and heir apparent, Edward Griffith". Edward Griffith appears in other local property transaction until 1776, and possibly as a tenant in 1796 (if its the same person).
The problem I am having is discovering the changes in names of the farms that seemed to occur about this time, and tracing the family tree of the landowners might help me.
Perhaps there is a Griffith family burial plot, but I have yet to discover it. Robert Glyn Griffith was born in Mold, but was seemingly from another Griffith bloodline. Any ideas welcome - and they do seem to be Griffith rather than Griffiths.
Thanks
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1851 seems to be Mount Street Mount House. Family above at same address & last entry on previous page also same address but all different names. Mount St has a lot of entries
1851 ref is Piece 2503 Folio 430 Page 5
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February 1850. RG Griffith was lised at Lloftwen.
Left side of page . Article Thomas Griffiths Esq
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3598550/3598554/10/
Mount Street became a pretty rough place later.
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Just search with these details,
Wrexham P., Bersham T.
Landowner Thompson John
Occupier Griffiths Robert Glyn
This is possibly Lloftwen, it's the right area.
https://places.library.wales/
Penygelli is part of Coedpoeth, but the parish is Bersham.
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Robert Glyn Griffith is in Wrexham Parish Church burial registers. Abode Chester Street. Under his name is Loft Wen.
The Ruthin Road Cemetery in Wrexham was being used for burials by then as the Churchyard was full.
There are NO records of burials.
There was also the Dissenters burial ground in Rhosddu.
Lloftwen was closely associated with Adwy Chapel in Coedpoeth which had its own burial ground.
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These take a while to load.
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/files/denbighshire/DD-W_WrexhamSolicitors.xml
Found in this document, it's difficult to read. There may be more at Denbighshire Archives.
Sarah Griffith of Lloftwen, widow, and Robert Glynne Griffith of Lloftwen, esq., and Elizabeth, his wife.</p>
<p>(ii) Jane Davies of Plasdrain, widow.</p>
<p>Two messuages called Wern and Vron in Esclusham.</p>
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There's a lot of records in this one. Search Lloftwen
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/files/denbighshire/DD-PP_PlasPower.xml
ii) Sarah Griffith of Lloftwen co.Denbigh, widow (and relict of Edward Griffith late of Lloftwen, esq.), Robert Glynne Griffith of Lloftwen, esq., and Elizabeth his wife.</p>
<p>Lands in Bersham.</p>
<p>Term: 500 years.</p>
Sorry it's a bit messy.
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1851 seems to be Mount Street Mount House. Family above at same address & last entry on previous page also same address but all different names. Mount St has a lot of entries
1851 ref is Piece 2503 Folio 430 Page 5
Many thanks Carole, subsequent posts suggest they still had ownership of Loftwen, but it was available for rent in 1852 - so maybe they decided to downsize. Mount House is unknown to me at the moment, so will have to look into it.
Steve
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February 1850. RG Griffith was lised at Lloftwen.
Left side of page . Article Thomas Griffiths Esq
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3598550/3598554/10/
Mount Street became a pretty rough place later.
Well spotted - so you think Mount House is unlikely to have been the final residence of a well-set elderly couple. I am not aware of its history or location, but suspect they let out Loftwen and downsized. Certainly it was available for rent in 1852.
Steve
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Just search with these details,
Wrexham P., Bersham T.
Landowner Thompson John
Occupier Griffiths Robert Glyn
This is possibly Lloftwen, it's the right area.
https://places.library.wales/
Penygelli is part of Coedpoeth, but the parish is Bersham.
583 is Loftwen. Interesting in that it says the landowner for Loftwen is John Thompson, and that Robert Glyn Griffith is the occupier. As Elizabeth's family had quite a bit of land 2 generations back, I had assumed they would own Loftwen too. What I can see is that George Griffith owns a farm called Cae Adam between Minera and Bwlchgwyn and that is occupied by John Thompson. So maybe George Griffith is a relative. More research needed!
Steve
Addendum. George Griffith born Mold 1782, proprietor of houses on 1851 census (Piece 2503 Folio 430 Page 4 - so bet he lives close). Robert Glyn Griffith born Mold 1778. I know its putting 2 and 2 together and making 5, but I would say he is Robert's brother. Not Elizabeth's family line, but she married another Griffith.
Steve
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https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/historic-wrexham.html?page=5&sortBy=relevant
There's an image of Mount House on here. 3rd row down next to Bubbles Ty Pawb.
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These take a while to load.
Sorry it's a bit messy.
Thanks for your help. Yes, have come across those, and they are the main source that links the Griffith family to various properties in Esclusham, one of them being mine as it is shown on a 1740 estate map with the name Edw Griffith against it. Hopefully the same Edward Griffith, wife Sarah, father to Elizabeth. What is tricky to untangle is what the properties mentioned in those old records and in old newspapers are called now. Mine and several others have been renamed, but it would be a start to get the tree for the owners so I am sure who is who. I think in part the various farms in the Minera and Esclusham area changed owners a fair bit as they hoped to get rich through the mineral wealth under the land (The Burton family in particular - John Burton owned my property at the time of the tithe map). I expect there were also some changes of ownership intended to benefit from enclosure acts. On top of that we have english documents recording transactions of welsh properties so the names tend to get mangled. You would think with names of houses, streams, fields, copses and dingles as well as some acreages, it would be possible to marry up transactions from 1740s to parts of the tithe map a 100 years later, but it is actually very difficult. Fields in particular tend to be called big field, near field, upper field, lower field etc, properties change their names, and acreages can change if fields are sold. I'll keep pecking away at it though, slowly building a picture of Esclusham Above in the 18th century. It is an interesting pursuit on a rainy day.
Oh, and I left out the legalese .. it is often quite hard to figure out what the transaction is.
Steve
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Do you have the 1780 will of Edwards Griffith, Gent, Llofftwen ?
https://viewer.library.wales/637239#?xywh=529%2C1220%2C830%2C537
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These are also interesting.
https://thefireonthehill.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/the-practical-miner-thomas-smith-of-minera/
Mentions Lloftwen.,
https://viewer.library.wales/860698#?xywh=-1613%2C-212%2C6231%2C4232
Will of Thomas Smith.
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John Burton owned my property at the time of the tithe map). I expect there were also some changes of ownership intended to benefit from enclosure acts. On top of that we have english documents recording transactions of welsh properties so the names tend to get mangled. You would think with names of houses, streams, fields, copses and dingles as well as some acreages, it would be possible to marry up transactions from 1740s to parts of the tithe map a 100 years later, but it is actually very difficult.
I did some work with the Cynefin project, and it was quite confusing when actual properties were not named, just house and garden etc.
One place near me has always been called Parsonage Farm, simply because of the farmers family name from the 1800s
When the building was demolished about 15 years ago a new house was built on the site, at first it kept the name, then it was sold and the new owners named it Holly House.
We still have roads named after the farmers who had their places nearby.
I'm interested in which is your property. I have a few books about Minera but none have information much earlier than the mid 1800s.
I know Lloftwen was connected with Adwy Chapel, and Dissenters held meetings there c 1784 according to information read somwhere.
I also did some research on Minera Hall ..
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Do you have the 1780 will of Edwards Griffith, Gent, Llofftwen ?
https://viewer.library.wales/637239#?xywh=529%2C1220%2C830%2C537
Oh what a find! Thanks for this Christmas present.
Steve
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These are also interesting.
https://thefireonthehill.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/the-practical-miner-thomas-smith-of-minera/
Mentions Lloftwen.,
https://viewer.library.wales/860698#?xywh=-1613%2C-212%2C6231%2C4232
Will of Thomas Smith.
Many Thanks, very interesting - I didn't spot Sarah mentioned in the will of Thomas Smith. Maybe she was the daughter of his son Thomas. I'll have to do some checking on dates, should be able to work it out.
Merry Christmas,
Steve
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https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4586973/4586977/29/George%2BOR%2BGriffith
George Griffith and Robert Glyn Griffith were brothers.
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Chester Chronicle 17 May 1815.
R G Griffith Lloftwen is in a list of subscribers for a Military trophy.
Below him is a George Griffith Wrexham Fechan
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https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4586973/4586977/29/George%2BOR%2BGriffith
George Griffith and Robert Glyn Griffith were brothers.
I suspected as much, thanks for the confirmation.
Steve
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Chester Chronicle 17 May 1815.
R G Griffith Lloftwen is in a list of subscribers for a Military trophy.
Below him is a George Griffith Wrexham Fechan
His death obit in the papers in 1857 say he was the last surviving captain of the Old Wrexham Volunteers enrolled for the Great War with France. So that ties in.
Steve
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I am having a problem following back up the family tree from Edward Griffith (Sarah's husband).
Edward married Sarah Smith (father Thomas Smith) in 1778. They only had the one child, Elizabeth, before Edward died in 1780. I don't know his age at death, but he names his wife and daughter in his will, so we know we have the right will.
Property transactions in Esclusham strongly suggest that Sarah inherited property bought by Anne Griffith (widow of Edward Griffith of Vrondeg d1708). After her husband's death Anne is listed as of Morton Wallicorum (now Johnstown). Anne's son, Edward, was named in a 1724 transaction as her son and heir apparent. It seems very unlikely that it is the same Edward that married in 1778, so I probably have missed a generation.
The will of Edward Griffith of Vrondeg seems to be missing, but his wife, Anne, and John and Edward Griffith are named as executors.
https://archives.library.wales/index.php/letters-of-administration-with-will-annexed-of-goods-of-edward-griffith-of-vrondeg-in-p-wrexham-co-denb-yeoman (https://archives.library.wales/index.php/letters-of-administration-with-will-annexed-of-goods-of-edward-griffith-of-vrondeg-in-p-wrexham-co-denb-yeoman)
Edward Griffith of Bersham appears in a property transaction in Esclusham in 1764, and I see no mention of Morton Wallicorum other than when Anne lived there c1708-1725, and a property transaction of Sarah Griffith in 1803 which mentions among other properties "a toft or meese place and lands called Bryndinas in the township of Morton Wallicorum in the parish of Rhuabon". This lists properties not only in Esclusham, but also Holt, Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd, and Lampint Street in Wrexham.
https://calmview.bangor.ac.uk/Calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BMSSXI%2F19%2F1%2F17525 (https://calmview.bangor.ac.uk/Calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BMSSXI%2F19%2F1%2F17525)
Some bits of the jigsaw are missing, but its coming together. There are other Griffith/s around which complicates things, but this family appear to be Griffith rather than Griffiths. Variations in the use of local names can be a challenge too, one that amused me was Penygelli written as Pen y Belly, but we have vrondeg and frondeg, and a host more.
Steve
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https://discover.library.wales/permalink/44WHELF_NLW/cn21ca/alma99157340202419
Have you got this. Edward was a widower.
Griffiths, Edward, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Smith, Sarah, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1778 Jan. 26
Marriage bonds, ca. 1690-1837 99230987302419
Marriage at Wrexham
marriage bond.
Creation Date 1778
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https://discover.library.wales/permalink/44WHELF_NLW/cn21ca/alma99157340202419
Have you got this. Edward was a widower.
Griffiths, Edward, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Smith, Sarah, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1778 Jan. 26
Marriage bonds, ca. 1690-1837 99230987302419
Marriage at Wrexham
marriage bond.
Creation Date 1778
Good spot !
Interesting, though his will (link provided by someone earlier) doesn't mention any direct family except Sarah and his child Elizabeth. Presumably his earlier wife died without any children.
It does mention some other people in Marchweil, surname appears to be Jenny, or Fenny. Could be family or maybe business. Haven't looked into that yet.
Steve
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http://www.clwydsurnames2.uk/F.html
This is a site created by a lady I know of. It's an index of names entries in Clwyd Parish Registers transcripts.
It's useful enough to see where names may be found.
We have Fenny in Marchwiel with the dates of the booklets that have been published
566 Marchwiel Vol 1 Baptisms 1652-1700 Marriages 1665-1700 Burials 1662-1700
489 Marchwiel Vol 2 Baptisms, Marriages & Burials 1701-1750
75 Marchwiel Vol 3 Baptisms, Marriages & Burials 1751-1812
266 Marchwiel Vol 4 Baptisms & Burials 1813-1837, Marriages 1814-1837
561 Marchwiel Vol 5 Baptisms & Burials 1838-1910 Marriages 1837-1910
FENNY 75 Marchwiel: Elizabeth, Martha, Mary, Samuel, Simon;
311 Hawarden: 15 Feb 1761 bap/o Willm s/o wm & Margt, Broad Lane
489 Marchwiel
Misc: 1841 Census Wrexham Town: Tuttle Street: Owen 50 Shoe m. born I.
Mary 49 born I.
+ Michael 15, James 11, Catherine 9, Elizabeth 3 - all not born In County
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With so many members of the Fenny family mentioned in Edward's 1780 will I am having a surprising amount of trouble finding any information. I though they might be a clue to the earlier marriage given the gifts in the will.
So still stuck on Edward's dob, and first marriage.
Steve
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I had a look at the Fenny names in Marchwiel . It doesn`t help much . There are lots of Fennahs but that will is written so clearly that it is definitely spelt as Fenny.
Fenny Marchwiel
Samuel Fenny Marriage 28 Oct 1696 Spouse Joan James ( another for same date has Jane James)
(Unknown) Son of Samuel Fenny born 26 Jan 1697
Samuel Fenny Burial 15 Apr 1732
Elizabeth Fenny Burial 23 Oct 1737 Spouse Simon
John Fenny Burial 17 Oct 1740 (John Fenny`s child of Gresford.)
Elizabeth Fenny . (The bastard Child) Burial 31 Oct 1760 Mother Elizabeth
John Fenny of the parish of Bangor Burial 31 Jan 1770
Simon Fenny Burial 30 May 1766
Jane Fenny Burial 20 Feb 1817 Spouse Samuel
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These Fenny people are really difficult, where did they come from.
Names in the will , with my notes
1780 Edward Griffith, Llofft Wen, Wrexham, Denbigh, Gent
Sarah my wife . Young enough to remarry and have more children. But if she does remarry she forfeits all she has been left.
Only daughter Elizabeth , who is not of full age .
Rev Edward Davies schoolmaster of Wrexham
Ellis Rogers
John son of Simon Fenny of Marchwiel.
Elizabeth daughter of John Fenny , and sister of the above Simon Fenny.
Two of the heirs of Pen Celli, Bala. Whether they be man or woman. Confusing !
James Fenny
Mary sister of Elizabeth daughter of John Fenny.
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Here is another mystery. Edward Davies is commerated on the same gravestone as Thomas Smith
I know it's the same grave because of the ID number amd and member number. It was submitted by Graham Lloyd. Graham was the superintendent at Ruabon Road Cemetery until his death a couple of years ago.
We worked together on the Wrexham History and the Gravestones Info site.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/204181467/edward-davies
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/99289
There is no obvious connection with the Smiths in his will
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/204169174/thomas-smith
Died 26 January 1786.
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Found the link. ;D
https://thefireonthehill.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/the-practical-miner-thomas-smith-of-minera/
Smith’s will shows that he had sons called Thomas and William. These were presumably the William and Thomas Smith Jr. who were noted as partners in the mine at Nant y Ffrith. Smith seems to have survived them, being long-lived by the standards of the time (and particularly so for someone exposed to the toxic atmosphere of the lead workings). His will also notes his wife, Anne; his sons’ children; a daughter called Jane; her son Edward Davies, mercer; another daughter, Elizabeth Davies; and a third daughter, Mary, the wife of Ambrose Lloyd of Ruthin. Yet another daughter, Sarah, appears to have stayed locally and married Edward Griffith of Lloftwen, so whatever his origins, Smith’s family became well-embedded in the area’s social fabric.
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Chester Chronicle 24 Feb 1826.
On 17th inst in her 72 year Mrs Sarah Griffith of Lloftwen relict of the late Edward Griffith.
She was buried in Wrexham Church graveyard
So born c 1754.
Would she have been of full age for a marriage in 1774, why was there a marriage bond.
unfortunately Library of Wales didn't have the Welsh Marriage bonds filmed.
It would be interesting to see what it reveals.
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Chester Chronicle 24 Feb 1826.
On 17th inst in her 72 year Mrs Sarah Griffith of Lloftwen relict of the late Edward Griffith.
She was buried in Wrexham Church graveyard
So born c 1754.
Would she have been of full age for a marriage in 1774, why was there a marriage bond.
unfortunately Library of Wales didn't have the Welsh Marriage bonds filmed.
It would be interesting to see what it reveals.
My, you have been busy, thanks. I have a marriage date for Sarah of 28 Jan 1778, so of full age by then. Edward must have died not long after Elizabeth was born.
There's a complex legal transaction recorded in 1803 for Sarah, and I have been looking again at the properties to tie them back to the earlier Griffith transactions. I am not sure if this is a sale or just a legal operation to create new tenencies in her name - maybe someone can explain the legalese to me. It is as follows :
1. Sarah Griffith of Lloftwen, co. Denbigh, widow and relict of Edward Griffith, late of Penygelly in the township of Bersham in the parish of Wrexham, gent., deceased; Robert Glynne Griffith of llofftwen, esq., and Elizabeth, his wife, only daughter and heiress of the said Edward Griffith.
2. John Hutchinson of Wrexham, gent.
3. Edward Eyton of Eyton Hall, co. Denbigh, esq.
Lease and Release by way of a Deed to make 2 a tenant to the precipe for suffering a Recovery of a messuage or tenement called Penygelly in the township of Bersham aforesaid; a messuage or tenement called Jones's Tenement in Bersham; a messuage or tenement called Talwrn there; a piece of land called the chapel field there; five messuages or cottages there; a messuage and tenements called Tyr cwisiad and Trawsytir ucha, alias Tu yn y Gwisied, Cae tan y Tu and y Byrdir in the township of Esclusham above Ditch in the parish of Wrexham; a messuage or tenement called Vron issa there; a messuage or cottage there; a toft or meese place and lands called Bryndinas in the township of Morton Wallicorum in the parish of Rhuabon; a messuage or tenement in the township of Cacca dutton in the parish of Holt, alias Lions, co. Denbigh; two messuages or tenements called Vron and Ty yn y pant in Garthgynan and Derwen Llanerch in the parish of Llanfair dyffryn clwyd, co. Denbigh; and a messuage or dwelling house in lampint Street in Wrexham.<<
As you can see, she had quite a lot of property. The property Bryndinas in Morton Wallicorum may be where her grandmother? Anne Griffith lived as she is recorded as living in that township c1708-1724, after the death of her husband Edward in Vrondeg.
The two properties in Llanfair dyffryn clwyd could point to family roots there, but not finding much on these. Then there's Cacca Dutton too. An interesting scatter, though the focus is on Esclusham Above in this and earlier transactions.
Steve
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Chester Chronicle 14 April 1826
This is one of 6 lots for sale. Others have names of tenant or landowner but not this one
The OCR was pretty poor so I only copied and transcribed this one.,
TO BE SOLD BY AUCTION, At the Wynnstay Arms
,on Thursday, the 26t h day of April", 1826, between the hours of four and six o'clock in the afternoon, isubject to such conditions of salel be then and : there produced, ,
! 1 A most desirable MANSION, called Lloftwen pleasantly situated upon ' an eminence, commanding moat prospects, and within two >miles and a half of the market town of Wrexham : with the GARDENS, PLANTATIONS, and CROFT adjoining, containing about four acres of excellent Land —the House consists of dining-room, 24f. by 18f., drawing-room of the same dimensions, and good breakfast parlour, with seven -well proportioned bed-rooms, store-room, two good kitchens, etc— There ls an excellent two-stalled STABLE and COACH-HOUSE, and a large PEW in Minera Chapel —The Gardens are well-stocked with Fruit
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Here is another mystery. Edward Davies is commerated on the same headstone as Thomas Smith. "
This looks like a good match.
Marriage by licence
Edward Davies
Banns Date1781
Mold, Flintshire
Date9 Jul 1781Residence PlaceWrexham
Spouse Elizabeth Smith of this parish Mold.
Witnesses Rob Griffith. Anne Griffith.
All parties signed.
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Chester, Chronicle
Friday, Apr. 16, 1830
An identical advertisement for Lloftwen, it's still for sale.
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Ambrose Lloyd
Marriage Banns Place Mold, Flintshire, Wales
Marriage Date 8 Nov 1772Residence Place Ruthin
Spouse Mary Smith of this parish
Witnesses Rob. Griffith. Jona' Smith.
All signed their names.
Ambrose Lloyd was a clerk in Ruthin and mentioned a lot in the newspapers.
No death announcement.
Chester Chronicle 13 May 1814.
Mrs Ambrose Lloyd died at Plasnewydd Ruthin aged 64
It looks like Thomas Smith was quite particular about who his daughters married.
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Elizabeth Griffiths
Birth Date16 Jan 1779 Baptism Date 6 Feb 1779
Baptism Place Wrexham
Father Edward
Original image has Eliz. daughter of Edwd Griffiths of LLOFTWEN. No mothers name. No occupation.
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Elizabeth Griffiths
Birth Date16 Jan 1779 Baptism Date 6 Feb 1779
Baptism Place Wrexham
Father Edward
Original image has Eliz. daughter of Edwd Griffiths of LLOFTWEN. No mothers name. No occupation.
That makes sense. Married Jan 1778, daughter in Jan 1779, sadly he died in May 1780.
Steve
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I am having a problem following back up the family tree from Edward Griffith (Sarah's husband).
Property transactions in Esclusham strongly suggest that Sarah inherited property bought by Anne Griffith (widow of Edward Griffith of Vrondeg d1708). After her husband's death Anne is listed as of Morton Wallicorum (now Johnstown). Anne's son, Edward, was named in a 1724 transaction as her son and heir apparent. It seems very unlikely that it is the same Edward that married in 1778, so I probably have missed a generation.
The will of Edward Griffith of Vrondeg seems to be missing, but his wife, Anne, and John and Edward Griffith
Will of Edward Griffith 1708 🙂
https://viewer.library.wales/760496
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The will of Edward Griffith of Vrondeg seems to be missing, but his wife, Anne, and John and Edward Griffith
Will of Edward Griffith 1708 🙂
https://viewer.library.wales/760496
Well done, I thought it was lost. It confirms two sons, Edward and John, seemingly of age to act as executors, and his wife Ann. It names two nephews Francis Edwards and William Davies. If I read it correctly he gives money to Richard ap David John Eyton to distribute to Edward's servants. I am still struggling to make some bits out. There is a gift to his son John of £30 by way of a mortgage of the lands of William Williams of Hafod y Bwlch.
Interesting stuff. We know Edward's wife Anne and 'her son and heir apparent Edward' were named on property transactions to 1724/5, and we have the marriage of Edward and Sarah in 1778 - so a 54 year gap, though there was an Edward Griffith buying property and land in Esclusham in 1764 (including y Kae tan y twy, y Weirgloth, Kaer Skibor and y Kae gwydd mawr).
Could be a tricky gap to fill, maybe two intermediate generations, quite likely all called Edward.
All the best for 2025
Steve
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I had a look at the Fenny names in Marchwiel . It doesn`t help much . There are lots of Fennahs but that will is written so clearly that it is definitely spelt as Fenny.
Fenny Marchwiel
Samuel Fenny Marriage 28 Oct 1696 Spouse Joan James ( another for same date has Jane James)
(Unknown) Son of Samuel Fenny born 26 Jan 1697
Samuel Fenny Burial 15 Apr 1732
Elizabeth Fenny Burial 23 Oct 1737 Spouse Simon
John Fenny Burial 17 Oct 1740 (John Fenny`s child of Gresford.)
Elizabeth Fenny . (The bastard Child) Burial 31 Oct 1760 Mother Elizabeth
John Fenny of the parish of Bangor Burial 31 Jan 1770
Simon Fenny Burial 30 May 1766
Jane Fenny Burial 20 Feb 1817 Spouse Samuel
It may be worth looking at variations of Fenny.
The Samuel Fenny died 1766 made a will. In that his name is Fennah, wife Mary.
He was a maltster of Gresford. I know he isn't mentioned in the Griffith will but it's the various spellings I'm thinking about
The Tithe maps have a Thomas Fenna landowner in Esclusham Above.
http://www.clwydsurnames2.uk/F.html
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Ignore the Samuel of Gresford. He did die 1766 but I have got Simon and Samuel mixed up
Sorry 😉
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The last property transaction I can find for Anne Griffith is in August 1724, and she is back at Vrondeg (recorded as Vron Deg so tricky to find). North East Wales Archives DD/CP/659.
Edward Griffith is still at 'Frondeg' in 1747 when he leases two messuages in Bersham and one in Esclusham. NEWA DD/PP/240,
I am told that according to A.N.Palmer (‘13 Townships’, Bersham p.79, para 64) Edward Griffith son and heir of Anne was at the large house called Pen-y-Gelli by 1752 according to a rate book.
So we seem to have a continuous thread of Griffith occupation in the immediate area. However there is a lot we don't know. The Edward that married Sarah was a widower, so who was he married to before - presumably a childless relationship as Elizabeth is his only heir? Finding this marriage might help decide his age. It seems very unlikely that the Edward that married Sarah in 1778 should be the same Edward, son and heir of Anne, in 1708.
Steve
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You can get a digital image of the Marriage Bond for £2.00.
Griffiths, Edward, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Smith, Sarah, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1778 Jan. 26.
You have send an email to the NLW and they send you an order form. You probably know that already.
It might help.
Email: enquiry@llgc.org.uk
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I've been looking for births, burials for Edward, Anne , John and , Edward the sons but finding nothing that fits.
I would have thought Edward would be in Wrexham as he left money to the Church,
Or possibly Ruabon, but nothing positive. Of course the problem is that ages are not given that early and we can only guess.
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I've been looking for births, burials for Edward, Anne , John and , Edward the sons but finding nothing that fits.
I would have thought Edward would be in Wrexham as he left money to the Church,
Or possibly Ruabon, but nothing positive. Of course the problem is that ages are not given that early and we can only guess.
I am delighted you are still pursuing this, you clearly have a lot of experience in finding information.
I found a will for a John Griffith in 1722 in Marchwiel. John was a named son (as executor) in the 1708 will of Edward Griffith. Edward also mentioned the Fennys of Marchwiel. So maybe that is the link - pretty tenuous I know, and I have yet to decode it. https://viewer.library.wales/357195#?xywh=-91%2C0%2C1529%2C1020&cv=1 (https://viewer.library.wales/357195#?xywh=-91%2C0%2C1529%2C1020&cv=1)
Maybe a red herring, but there has to be a Marchwiel connection with Edward senior.
Steve
Steve
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You can get a digital image of the Marriage Bond for £2.00.
Griffiths, Edward, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Smith, Sarah, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1778 Jan. 26.
You have send an email to the NLW and they send you an order form. You probably know that already.
It might help.
Email: enquiry@llgc.org.uk
No, I wasn't aware I could do that. Is it not something I can get online at Wrexham library?
Steve
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No, only available direct from NLW as they haven't been digitised like the wills.
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John Griffith was buried 2 March 1721 at Marchwiel. No abode given.
Bryn y Grog is mentioned in the will.
Clwyd FHS info.
Bryn y Grog Hall, Marchwiel. Constructed late C18 on the site of a building which had been on the site since at least 1700 when it was owned by Mrs Elis of Wrexham, Bryn-y-Grog Hall was bought by Philip Yorke of Erddig in 1773 from John Jones. It was the residence of John Edgeworth and later of Charles Menzies Holland the Victorian railway engineer and slate quarry owner.
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Going back to the Will.
John Griffith has a son William Jones.
His wife's name I couldn't work out but believe it is Ermin.
4 Feb 1702. Marchwiel
John Griffith yeo married Ermin Jones
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Ermine Griffiths buried 23 February 1754.
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Ermine Jones baptised Ruabon 24 April 1674. Father Edward.
She lived to a good age if it's the same lady.
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http://hdl.handle.net/10107/109300
The will of ' Ermni ' Griffiths.
It's a nice one , leaving brass pots , feather bed , bolster, curtains etc. :)
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Looking at the will of Ermin Griffith, check out the names of her children, most have the surname Jones.
Does this indicate that they were born before she married John Griffith.
JOHN JONES . This is the name of the person who sold Bryn Y Grog to Philip Yorke c 1772.
The will needs looking at carefully as it's possible that she had a son John Jones or brother John Jones.
Ermine also mentions the late Mr? Robinson of Gwersyllt.
The Robinson family owned loads of land around the area,
There are a few wills for the Robinson family, but some are only the Bonds.
There's a few early documents in Denbighshire Archives relating to Bryn Y Grog.
Excuse the one line posts, I'm using a tablet and it's a bit tricky with a few pages open at the same time. 😁
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Been searching for Ermin before her marriage without much luck..
Some records found are not positive.
Ruabon 1709 5 August
Ermin Jones xdd Kenrick buried ,(Christionydd)
Marchwiel 4 Feb 1702
John Griffith married Ermin Jones.
Was she a widow
1748 16 February. Ermine Griffith Bryn Y Grog made a will. She names.
Son John Jones.
Grand daughter Ermine Morris,? Davies?
Son Thomas Jones
Daughter Ermin Jones
Late Mr? Robinson Gwersyllt
There's a lot of money.
Why do her children have Jones as surnames.
Wrexham 31 February 1744 baptism
Ermin daughter of John Jones Pentre Vohn Newydd. Lab
Marchwiel 1750 23 October Ermine Jones daughter of John Jones and Elizabeth buried
Marchwiel 23 February 1754
Ermine Griffith buried
I can't find any positive burials or wills for her sons.
The sale of Bryn y Grog by John Jones is intriguing though.
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Wow - I am overwhelmed.
I was making a speculative link between the John Griffith, brother of Edward Griffith, son of Edward and Anne Griffith at Vrondeg, and the fact that the will of Edward Griffith snr in 1708 refers to several members of the 'Fenny' family in Marchwiel.
John Griffith doesn't appear in later transactions of Anne Griffith, or her son and heir Edward, making me wonder if he died, so the 1722 Marchwiel death was a potential connection. What you have uncovered is a fit in terms of name, time, and location, but no origin for this John Griffith, and no link evident to the 'Fenny' family.
I suppose we don't know his wife's maiden name. Was she a Jones that married another unrelated Jones as her first husband? We have already had a Griffith that married another Griffith in this same thread. I suppose that is not uncommon - though Fenny/Fenna/Fennah is pretty uncommon - I wonder why they were mentioned in the 1708 will? Maybe the connection is by the named nephews of Edward Griffith snr - Francis Edwards and William Davies.
Steve
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I was stuck at home because of the snow and ice so decided to do some more digging.
From the Samuel Fenny and Jane James marriage I looked for any documents for a James in that area.
I found a will.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/838642
John James 1700 Bedwell Marchwiel . I hit GOLD . ;D
Basic details.
John James of Bedwell . I give to my grandson John Griffith £20 , daughter Anne Griffith £20 , grandson Edward Griffith £10. Grandson Simon Phenie £20 , daughter Jane Phenie £10 , Robert Druly ? 2 shillings 6 pence , Ann Morris 2 shillings 6 pence , son in law Edward Griffith of Esclusham yeoman 1 shilling, son in law Samuel Phenie of Bedwell 1 shilling, grandson Simon Phenie get the remainder of items in the house where I dwell, Daughters Ann and Jane are executors .
No mention of a wife. Edward Griffith and Simon Phenie the son in laws didn`t get much. Perhaps they had money of their own .
John James of Bedwell was buried 13 December 1700 Marchwiel.
Edward Griffith of Ruabon married Ann Jones of this parish 14 May 1696 Marchwiel.
Has the clerk made a mistake with her name.
1696 28 Oct Samuel Fenny Marriage Spouse Jane James
1697 26 Jan (Unknown) Son of Samuel Fenny bapt ( Simon or Samuel )
1700 born 9 March bapt 19 March. Jane Fenny daughter of Samuel Fenny and wife Jane.
1705 7 Jan John Fenny son of Samuel Fenny and wife Jane baptised
1732 15 April Samuel Fenny buried
1737 3 Oct James Fenny son of Simon Fenny and wife Elizabeth baptised
1737 3 Oct James Fenny son of Simon Fenny and wife Elizabeth baptised
1737 23 Oct Elizabeth Fenny wife of Simon Fenny burial
1740 17 Oct John Fenny Burial (John Fenny`s child of Gresford.)
1744 29 July David Fenny son of Simon Fenny buried
1760 31 Oct Elizabeth Fenny. (The bastard Child) Burial Mother Elizabeth
1764 28 March Martha Fenny of Bangor burial
1766 31 Jan Simon Fenny Burial
1770 31 Jan John Fenny of the parish of Bangor. Burial
1817 20 Feb Jane Fenny w/o Samuel burial
The above are all I found in the original images, some were wrongly transcribed or had been missed out.
Hope this helps .
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Wow - I am overwhelmed.
I was making a speculative link between the John Griffith, brother of Edward Griffith, son of Edward and Anne Griffith at Vrondeg, and the fact that the will of Edward Griffith snr in 1708 refers to several members of the 'Fenny' family in Marchwiel.
Steve
It`s the 1780 will that mentions the Fenny`s . They are still in the Marchwiel area.
Simon Fenny and Elizabeth Fenny ( & and ? ) two of the heirs of Pen Celli near Bala.
Does he mean the above Fenny`s or someone else.
I don`t understand.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/637239
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Wow, you certainly struck gold. Well done. I think I need to draw up a family tree to help arrange the information.
The alternative spelling Phenie as Fenny is almost designed to cause difficulties for those searching computer records. So it seems the surname is one that is not so totally rare, but rather one that comes in various forms, and I thought Griffith/Gruffydd was tricky enough.
Excellent work.
Steve
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It`s the 1780 will that mentions the Fenny`s . They are still in the Marchwiel area.
Simon Fenny and Elizabeth Fenny ( & and ? ) two of the heirs of Pen Celli near Bala.
Does he mean the above Fenny`s or someone else.
I don`t understand.
My mistake. Curious that the link to the Fenny family via Anne's sister is still so strong 84 years later. It certainly appears that Edward was last of the line before his marriage in 1778, with no heirs.
I still struggle with the dates though. If Anne married Edward in 1696, then the sons she bore (which were named in the 1700 will of John James) would have only been 10 to 12 years old when they were named as executors in the 1708 will of Edward. There is little doubt they are the sons of Ann, as John names them as his grandsons, and names his daughter, Ann. As he has no sons, his daughters and their children are his bloodline. Perhaps the marriafe od Edward Griffith and Ann Jones in 1696 Marchwiel was not a transcription error, and the Marriage of Edward Griffith and Ann James was earlier, allowing the sons to be old enough to be executors in 1708.
Edward would have been born about 1697 if the marriage is correct. It seems extraordinary that he might have married a much younger woman in 1778 and had a child in 1779 when he would have been 82. It still seems likely we have lost a generation somewhere in the 1750s, but then the 1780 will with generous beqests to the Fenny family then seems even more curious.
Then we have his son John Griffith - is he the John Griffith of Bryn y Grog who's 1722 will I discovered. The value of the bequests in that will seem to be of a different order, and we (and here I mean mainly 'Wilcoxon') have discovered the Marchwiel link was by his father marrying Ann James. John's wife Ermine Jones was a widow and potentially came with considerable money. It could be that John's will mainly transfers this wealth and the Bryn-y-Grog property down the Jones family line.
I wonder now if we have exhausted the available material?
Steve
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In the 1780 will of Edward Griffith he states that " if within legal time my wife Sarah should have a son "
So presumably she may have been pregnant which for an 80 odd man would be pretty good going.
There must be another generation, but we only have two names so far.
I still think the marriage bond is worth getting.
I am still poking around with the Fenny lot . Why are there no marriages,
Also looking again at the John Griffith and children of Bryn Y Grog. Why the change of name to Jones ???
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Then we have his son John Griffith - is he the John Griffith of Bryn y Grog who's 1722 will I discovered. The value of the bequests in that will seem to be of a different order, and we (and here I mean mainly 'Wilcoxon') have discovered the Marchwiel link was by his father marrying Ann James. John's wife Ermine Jones was a widow and potentially came with considerable money. It could be that John's will mainly transfers this wealth and the Bryn-y-Grog property down the Jones family line.
Where did you see this. It's not on the parish registers I saw.
Steve
[/quote]
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Think I misread your 'was she a widow' as 'she was a widow'
I had already seen in the John Griffith will that he mentions his son William Jones, but the other children just as John, Thomas, Mary, Ermine, and one I can't make out starting with 'ff'. He also mentions a step? brother John Jones. I am not sure if the word is 'step'.
From your account of Ermine's 1748 will, it seems these were then all named Jones. Now you raiose it I suppose his 'son' might not be from a previous marriage, but might be named William Jones Griffith - maybe they all had Jones as middle name. My grandmother had James as her middle name, it was her mother's maiden name.
One thing I found recently is the Bryn Dinas property in Moreton Wallicorum mentioned in an Anne Griffith transaction of 1724 and the Elizabeth Griffith transaction of 1803, is also mentioned in 1873 in the newspapers as being the location of the second water reservoir being built on the Esclusham/Moreton Wallicorum border - owner John Rogers. The part of the reservoir in Esclusham Above was on a property called Plas-yn-fron (owner John Burton).
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JOHN JAMES
Will. John James 1700 Bedwell Marchwiel .
John James of Bedwell . I give to my grandson John Griffith £20 , daughter Anne Griffith £20 , grandson Edward Griffith £10. son in law Edward Griffith of Esclusham yeoman 1 shilling, Daughters Ann and Jane are executors . No marriage has been found for Ann James to a Griffith.
John James seems to have married twice.
10 Feb 1661 at Holt.
John James of Bangor parish and Alis Dodd daughter to Owen Dodd of Holt parish.
It`s unusual to have the name of the bride`s father.
Alice James buried 2 February 1679 Bangor on Dee.
8 February 1686 at Holt.
John James of Bedwell married Elizabeth daughter of John Richardson. (by licence ?)
Again more father`s details. This seems to indicate they were important families .
Anne James could be from his first marriage to Alis Dodd.
Anne James baptised at Wrexham 19 Apr 1664 d/o John James of Esclsysh (Esclusham)
David James bapt 13 Jul 1668 Wrexham. s/o John James of Esclusham. Nothing more found about him.
16 Nov 1709 at Holt. John Richardson of Ridley Wood buried. ? No will found.
There is a will John Richardson in 1765. Of Sutton Green, Holt. His eldest son is also named John., so it seems it`s a name handed down.
William Dod : will, 1639 Sutton.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/442707
Witnesses . Owen Dod. Christopher Dod. John Dod. Daughters. Ales Dod. Anne Dod. Margaret Dod.
Alice Dod Spinster. will, 1662 of Sutton. Owen`s sister.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/689243
Owen Dod Will 1665. Of Sutton.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/721446
He names Anne, Margaret , Ales, Elianor. Supposed daughter Frances. No” James mentioned”. It`s a bit complicated but he had money.
Edward Dod : will, 1685 Sutton.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/526321
He is a brother to Owen and leaves £10 to his neice Anne James. Her father John James married Alice / Ales Dod. One the names when the will was proved seems to be John James ?
Ann James must have been born between 10 Feb 1661 and 2 February 1679 and still unmarried in 1685.
It`s so frustrating not finding that marriage to Edward Griffith.
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These mentions of Holt extend into the Griffiths transactions I have been looking at. In the 1803 Sarah Griffith land transactions it mentions "a messuage or tenement in the township of Cacca dutton in the parish of Holt, alias Lions, co. Denbigh".
How Sarah came to be involved in property in Holt was unclear, but I just found a possible connection with what looks to me like a transfer of property (a Consideration: in order to suffer a recovery) from "Richard Thomas of Borras, co. Denbigh, gent. and Anne Griffith of Vron Deg, co. Denbigh, widow" in 1724 to "John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent." (ref DD/CP/659)
Perhaps this transaction helps cement the links between Anne Griffith and her son John, and the John Griffith who died in 1722 husband to Ermin Jones who was in turn sister to John Jones. Though it is a little tenuous to connect this to Sarah owning property in Holt in 1803, but I have so far not found another transaction that could link her to property there.
Incidentally, not sure if it came up earlier but the 18th century residence 'Vrondeg' (as opposed to the general area of the same name) was earlier called Cae David Goch (BMSS/17512-17513 of 1763), and appears in earlier legal records involving Griffiths/Gruffiths.
Another outstanding item of property mentioned in Sarah's transaction in 1803 is "two messuages or tenements called Vron and Ty yn y pant in Garthgynan and Derwen Llanerch in the parish of Llanfair dyffryn clwyd, co. Denbigh; and a messuage or dwelling house in Lampint Street in Wrexham." - all as of yet unexplained. I had hoped these might provide clues to other members of the family, but so far have failed to find anything.
Steve
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Have found some more on the Griffith property in Cacca Dutton referred to in 1803. In an 1826 newspaper (Chester Courant 18th April, p1) there was an auction of properties which can only be those of Elizabeth Griffith. 6 lots including Lloftwen, Talwrn next to Lloftwen, 4 cottages in Adwy'r Clawdd, Fron in Esclusham-above, Bryn-Dinas, and a property in Cacca Dutton, the latter described as "A messuage, garden and croft situated in the township of Cacca Dutton, in the parish of Holt, containing about 2 acres of exceeding rich land, lying not far from the River Dee, and now in the holding of William Barrow." There's several details of the other properties, especially noting the potential for mineral riches to be found beneath the ground.
Steve
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Going back to the Griffith of Bryn Y Grog. I have to post in 2 parts .
BRYN Y GROG. Griffith to Jones .
This lot are quite complicated , why did they change their name. One thing is sure all the records of John Jones selling Bryn Y Grog are not quite right, it was really John Griffith.
There are quite a few Ermin Jones around but this is the best one with an age that fits
Ruabon 26 April 1674 baptism of Ermin Jones d/o Edward Jones.
Ruabon 4 Feb 1709 burial of Ermin Jones Christionydd Kenrick. Mother of above ?
No marriage has been found between Edward Jones and an Ermine.
Marchwiel Registers . All children have surname Griffith,
1702 4 Feb Marchwiel. John Griffith yeo married Ermin Jones .
1703 30 Dec. William s/o John and Ermine Griffith baptised.
1705 12 Oct. Mary d/o ditto
1708 8 May. Frances d/o ditto
1710 17 June. Ermine d/o ditto
1712 18 Oct. John s/o ditto
1714 18 Feb. Thomas s/o ditto.
1721 2 March. A John Griffith buried.
There are no further details on any of the above records.
In the will of John Griffith, Gent, he leaves properties in Wrexham, Bangor and Marchwiel. I give to Ermin my wife one ? called Bryn y Grog to have and hold during her natural life.
And after her death I give ? to my son William JONES ( and the heirs of his body lawfully ensuing and for the want of such ) I give to my son John (ditto). I give to my son Thomas (ditto) I give to my daughter Mary (ditto) I give to my daughter Ffrances (ditto) I give to my daughter Ermin (ditto).
He gives the rest of his real estate to son William JONES and the heirs of his body lawfully ensuing and for the want of such. Same details again for John , Thomas, Mary, Ffrances, Ermin. All 6 children are named
They all are also left money between £100 and £200 . It then gets a bit complicated as regards William using more money for the benefit of the younger children. To my brother JOHN JONES and his heirs until he shall ??? out of the rents etc the sum of £150 ... . My will and meaning that the legacies shall not be paid to the younger children until they reach 21. All the rest of his estate he leaves to Ermin his wife.
Ermin is named as Executrix. His brother JOHN JONES is appointed as trustee.
Both John Griffith and Ermin Griffith signed the document.
It`s possible that the brother JOHN JONES is his brother in law and Ermin`s brother .
Another option is that John Griffith`s mother also married a JONES at some time , in which case he would be a step brother. It is confusing. His son JOHN would be 12.
No surnames given except for William who is now Jones , he was baptised as Griffith.
An inventory of the goods was taken on 3 April 1722.
One of the witnesses was Humphrey Foulkes rector of Marchwiel. The will was proved 24 April 1722.
1753 23 Feb. Ermine Griffiths buried Marchwiel . Her named children are now JONES.
Ermin Griffith of Bryn y Grog signed her will 11 February 1748. It was proved 4 February 1754.
She names sons John Jones, Thomas Jones and daughter Ermin Jones. Granddaughter Ermin Morris
So eldest son William b 1703. Ffrances b 1708 and Mary b 1705 are not named. Have they married, and under which surname.
It's known from documents that William Jones had definitely died by 1760 as his brother John Jones was described as his heir.
A William Jones was buried at Marchwiel on 11 May 1737 and another 1 Aug 1729 but there`s no way of knowing it`s the right one as ages and abode isn't given, also no will has been found.
Only Mary and John have been found.
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Only Mary and John have been found.
28 May 1731 A Mary Jones of Malpas married John Morris of Bettisfield at Hanmer. Banns.
Ermine Morris baptised 16 February 1734 at Overton. Daughter of John Morris shoemaker of Overton Villa and Mary .
29 Sept 1756 An Ermine Morris spinster married Joseph White a peruke maker at Overton.
19 August 1761 Ermine White burial Overton.
26 December 1763 at Overton Joseph White peruke maker married Mary Cash. Oddly the first name on the Banns of the spouse is Mary White. Mary Cash made her mark. The parish register has the correct name of Mary Cash.
JOHN GRIFFITH / JONES baptised 1712.
Wrexham January 1744 a John Jones married Elizabeth Edwards both OTP Banns.
Wrexham Ermin Jones b 23 July 1744, baptised 31 July. Father John Jones lab of Pentre Velin Newydd. Probably Pentre'r Felin Newydd which was a small settlement around the Red Lion, Kings Mills area and just a short distance from the current Bryn y Grog.
Marchwiel , 11 June 1745 Ermin Jones daughter of John Jones of Pentre y Felin buried.
Marchwiel. 4 August 1750 Ermin daughter of John and Elizabeth Jones baptised.
Marchwiel Ermine Jones an infant was buried 23 October 1750
Marchwiel An Elizabeth Jones was buried 29 October 1750.
Is this mother and daughter.
Did John Jones marry and have more children.
Marchwiel. October 1791 Ermine Jones of Wrexham buried. Who does she belong to. She could be Ermine Griffith born 1710, but would be 81.
Why have the names changed.
There is a document dated 1763 for a mortgage for property including Bryn y Grog, kiln and lands in Bedwell. John Jones of Wrexham, grocer and ironmonger / Anne Shakerley of Egham Suffolk.
The Shakerley family also had lands in Gwersyllt and were acquainted with the Robinsons.
British Listed Buildings.
Constructed late C18 on the site of a building which had been on the site since at least 1700 when it was owned by Mrs Elis of Wrexham, Bryn-y-Grog Hall was bought by Philip Yorke of Erddig in 1773 from John Jones. Other sources say he is a grocer.
This was 10 years after the mortgage, why was John selling.
No positive death has been found for John Jones , and no will.
Flintshire / Denbighshire Archives
03 Nov 1676 Marriage settlement
(i) Katherine Tyler of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, widow.
(ii) John Edisbury of Erthig [Erddig], co. Denbigh, esq., Joshua Edisbury, his eldest son and heir apparent, Edward Mainwaring of Wrexham, draper and John Ely of Rowton, co. Chester, gent.
(iii) George Ely of Wrexham, draper.
Conveyance to (ii) of capital messuage called Bryn y grog with lands (named) in Marchwiel, co. Denbigh, upon trusts (specified).
Consideration: intended marriage of (iii) and Mary, daughter of (i).
10 Mar 1706/07 Demise.
(i) Mary Ely of Marchwiel, co. Denbigh, widow.
(ii) Robert Hughes of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent.
Capital messuage called Bryn y Grog with lands (named) in Marchwiel.
Term: 99 years or life of (i).
18/19 Aug 1758
i) John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, grocer and ironmonger.
(ii) Thomas Parry of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent.
(iii) Thomas Blackbarne of Wrexham, gent.
Messuage called Bryn-y-grog, kiln and lands (named) in Bedwall and Marchwiel, co. Denbigh.
Consideration: breaking the entail. Is he trying to remove the conditions of his fathers will in order to be able to sell .
14 Jan 1765
(i) Anne Shackerley of Egham, co. Surrey, spinster.
(ii) John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, grocer and ironmonger.
(iii) Thomas Patton of Chester, currier.
Mortgage in 800 affecting property as in D/E/29 [messuage called Bryn-y-grog, kiln and lands in Bedwall and Marchwiel, co. Denbigh].
29 Jul 1772
(i) John Jones of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, grocer.
(ii) John Edgeworth of Brynygrog, Marchwiel, co. Denbigh, esq.
For sale to (ii) of Messuage on the W. side of the church-yard and a pew in the N. part of the chancel of Marchwiel church for £51.
3 Jul 1772
Deed for barring the entail
(i) Roger Edgworth of Bryn-y-grog in Marchwiel parish, co. Denbigh, gent.
(ii) John James of Wrexham, co. Denbigh, gent.
Messuage or mansion house called Brynygrog and parcels of land called Cae?r groes, Cae?n Scybor, Cae?r gegin, otherwise Cae?r popty and Yr Erw in Marchwiel parish.
29/30 Jun 1774
(i) John Jones, late of Brynygrog, Marchwiel, now of Wrexham, co.Denbigh, grocer and ironmonger, brother and heir of William Jones of Marchwiel, gent., deceased.
(ii) William Lloyd of Plas Power, co.Denbigh, esq.
Property as in DD/PP/76.
Consideration: £150.
(also agreement between John Jones and William Lloyd, 11 1774).
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Wow - that is some major research, thanks !
Ann Griffith certainly appears in transactions up to 1724 - see my earlier post. So if she remarried it was after the death of John Griffith. It seems very strange that the will of Ermin Griffiths should name her children as Jones. Maybe it was considered vital to the Jones family business to use the Jones surname and Ermin's sons were the male heirs. I suspect John Jones named in John Griffith's will was Ermin's brother. Maybe he had no male children.
I discovered a surname change in my family tree in 1829. My direct ancestor was a witness for the prosecution in a major trial, and many people were going to be imprisoned or deported. However the trial failed on a technicality, leaving my ancestor in a perilous position - he therefore hastily moved away and changed his name, otherwise I wouldn't be here. There was no formal process back then, I was fortunate a previous researcher documenting the trial had turned it up.
Steve
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https://discover.library.wales/permalink/44WHELF_NLW/cn21ca/alma99157340202419
Have you got this. Edward was a widower.
Griffiths, Edward, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Smith, Sarah, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1778 Jan. 26
Marriage bonds, ca. 1690-1837 99230987302419
Marriage at Wrexham
marriage bond.
Creation Date 1778
I got the marriage bond hoping it would help, it didn't ::)
26 January 1778.
Edward Griffith of Wrexham Parish intends to marry Sarah Smith. Both over 21.
A sum of £200 is paid to Edward Edwards surrogate for a licence.
Edward Griffith and Samuel Hughes of Wrexham paid the amount.
No other people are named. Edward Griffith signed , his signature is very spidery but better than the one on his will.
It's a shame the marriage isn't in the Parish Registers, there could have been clues with wittnesses.
There's no occupation given for Samuel Hughes.
If you want a copy just let me know.
I have seen Marriage Bonds with much more information, but never mind. It was worth a shot.
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Shame, appreciate you gave it a go, though not clear to me the role of Samuel Hughes.
Came across a mention of the late Edward Griffith in a will of 1826 for Edward Roberts of Esclusham above (SA/1826/221) in which he bequeaths "lands and tenements held under lease of the late Mr Edwd Griffith of penygelli now the property of John Burton of Minera Esq". I was surprised to see him mentioned 46 years after his death, but I assume these are long term leases which Robert or John Burton had to honour when they purchased the properties. The only Burton purchase I am aware of before Edward Griffith died in 1780 is the transaction involving Robert Burton and Ty yn yr ynn, Cae Glas, and Cae yr Skybor (presumably Cae ysgubor) c1774. Though I suppose it is possible someone else bought it before 1780 and then Robert or John Burton bought it from them before 1826.
I suspect Robert Burton purchased properties in Esclusham Above hoping to benefit from the mineral wealth beneath - both coal or lead. The tithe map shows John Burton (his nephew and heir) owning quite a large acreage. A 1740 Badeslade map just touches on the North of Esclusham Above and shows Edwd Griffith against what was later Penymynydd Farm - the property is not named on the map, and the building layout is different. As I can find no reference to Penymynydd Farm before c1838, I am wondering if this was originally Ty yn yr ynn (the house in the ash trees). The tithe map shows John Burton as owner, and Samuel Roberts as tenant, he is son of Edward Roberts (see 1826 will above), but it is clear Edward Roberts had several properties in the area.
Pursuing the Edward Roberts connections I found a will for Elizabeth Roberts (widow) of Esclusham in 1782 (SA/1782/211), 4 sons: Will, John, Owen and Edward Roberts, and she had a daughter Mary Griffiths, who was sole executor. Elizabeth's estate was in the hands of Edward Roberts. So could easily be the one who died in 1826. I can't find the marriage for Mary to see if it links to the Giffiths family we have been researching.
Steve
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Wills
Edward Roberts 1826
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/819273
Elizabeth Roberts 1782
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/62617
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Wrexham
2 burial entries for Edward Roberts on 19 November 1825 on different registers
Both have age 80 b c 1745
Abode Vronday / Vrondeg
The other one has Esclusham Above
Elizabeth Roberts buried 23 December 1782 of EA.. Esclusham Above probably
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1782 will of Elizabeth Roberts widow.
Sons William. John. Owen. Edward Roberts. Daughter Mary Griffiths.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/1013463
1776 will of Owen Roberts, Ridley Wood.
Eldest son William Roberts. Son John Roberts. Grandson Owen Roberts son of Owen Roberts. Grandson John Roberts son of John Roberts. Daughter Mary Roberts. Wife Elizabeth Roberts. Son Edward Roberts (unmarried)
A mortgage with Thos Hagman. ?
Wife Elizabeth and son Edward are executors.
Mary Roberts must have married a Griffiths between 1776 and 1782.
No marriage has been found. It's possible that Mary Roberts married an unknown who died and she married again as a widow with another surname.
Wrexham PRs
Owen son of Owen Roberts born 16 February 1738 baptised 4 March. Of Esclu Above. ***
A Mary Roberts born 23 March baptised 1 April 1750. Father Owen of Ridley.
Edward son of Owen Roberts born 25 March 1747 baptised 5 April 1747. of Ridley Wood.
William Roberts born 27 August 1744 baptised 30 August 1744. Son of Owen of Ridley Holt.
Overton PRs just a wild shot.
A baptism of John Roberts on 14 December 1729 at Overton is the only match found.
Son of Owen Roberts of Overton Villa, joyner and Elizabeth his wife. Overton Villa wasn't a dwelling, it was part of the parish of Overton.
No marriage found for Owen Roberts and Elizabeth that fits.
Holt PRs
Owen Roberts interred 16 October 1774
Father Owen of Holt.
Owen son of Owen Roberts of Holt interred 26 January 1775.
29 January 1820
Owen Roberts aged 89 buried, of Ridley. b c 1739 ***
There's a lot of Owen Roberts in there 🙂
It's annoying that we can't find Mary Griffiths though.
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The 1776 will of Owen Roberts seems to be signed in 1770, so he could be either of the burials in 1774 and 1775. The will wasn't proven till 1776.
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A John Griffith and a Mary Roberts were married by banns on 22 July 1771 at Chester St Mary's. Both otp. Both made X.
Witnesses John Cooper and Sarah Gore .
so after Owen Roberts made his will.
A Richard Griffith husbandsman of Ruabon married an Elizabeth Griffith by licence at the same place on 25 June 1771. Witnesses Henry Forrester and Margaret Price.
Both made X
So obviously used by people from over the border.
Still no Griffith / Mary Roberts in Wales.
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See reply 72.
Thomas Hagman is Thomas Hayman. He was an attorney and his name is in many of the legal records linked to the families we have found.
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Wrexham
2 burial entries for Edward Roberts on 19 November 1825 on different registers
Both have age 80 b c 1745
Abode Vronday / Vrondeg
The other one has Esclusham Above
Elizabeth Roberts buried 23 December 1782 of EA.. Esclusham Above probably
Wow, stunning research.
Good to have an age for Edward Roberts, though I thought the will was 1826. Perhaps its was written in 1825 and proved in 1826. I can't quite read the date.
What you have found on the Roberts seems to agree with a tree on familysearch - which follows the Roberts back to Owen Roberts born Ridley, 1710. I am not sure when Edward Roberts moved to Esclusham Above, but it seems his daughter Ellinor was born there in 1783, so maybe after he married.
So Edward Roberts died in Vrondeg in 1825, which in this case I think refers to the area rather than the specific house, which I think was the case for Edward and Anne Griffith. When Edward Roberts jnr and his sister Elizabeth Roberts died in 1838 they were living as tenants at Penymynydd Farm, which seems to lie outside Vrondeg.
I will have to try and digest all this info on Sunday. It looks like another grey day.
Steve
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I have been adding the Roberts family info to a family tree to organise my thoughts (as I did for the Griffith family - though with the Griffith's I have the big uncertainty about whether we have missed out a Griffith or have an extremely unlikely marriage of a very elderly man to a young woman and a resulting child).
I spotted a problem with the dates for the children of Owen Roberts of Ridley. In his will of 1770 he names William as his eldest son, and then also leaves bequests to sons John, Owen, Edward and daughter Mary (also to his wife and grandchildren). The Parish Record "Owen son of Owen Roberts born 16 February 1738 baptised 4 March. Of Esclu Above. ***" would make Owen the eldest son.
I can entirely believe that he would name his first son Owen the same as himself, it is common practice, though also the father may use his father's name. Perhaps the Owen of 1738 didn't make it, and he named another child Owen later. However I see your three asterisks are saying the Owen born 1739 is a pretty close match with an Owen Roberts who died in Ridley aged 89 in 1820. I think you are right, there were a lot of Owens in Ridley !
The other strange thing is that Owen senior's sons apart from Owen of 1738 are 'of Ridley', and he is 'of Ridley' in his will of 1770. So perhaps it was his son Edward who decided to seek pastures new in Esclusham Above. Although Owen's wife, Elizabeth, in her will of 1782 is of Esclusham, she may have moved in with her children after her husband died.
My reading of Owen senior's will is that the grandson via his son Owen, is named William rather than Owen.
As for the family trees, the Mary Roberts to Griffith marriage is a tricky one. Tempting to think the two families are linked.
Steve
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Looking through old papers I have a Mary Griffiths of Vron Deg (widow) in Chester Chronicle - Friday 14 August 1812, page 2. There is notice of a sale of many properties in 4 in Llanarmon in Ial, 13 in Kilkin (though many are single fields), and 2 in Wrexham parish, all being lands of inheritance. Usefully the properties are tabulated with property names and tenants names. There are 2 in Wrexham :
Plas yn Vron, 101 acres, tenant Edward Roberts aged 70 with the tenancy for the life of the tenant
Vron Deg, 54 acres, tenant Mary Griffiths (widow), with tenancy on a year by year basis.
In June/July 1816 there are numerous adverts in the papers for an auction of a single property called 'Fron' n Esclusham of 40 acres, held by the tenant Edward Roberts. Described as "a very desirable and compact farm, with a good farmhouse .... with 3 cottages attached. ... The farm lies within a ring fence and is in the immediate vicinity of lime and coal. It is believged that the Minera lead vein runs through the property... The sheepwalk belonging to the estate is one of the most extensive in the country."
They point out that the value will be improved if the Esclusham enclosure act goes through - which as far as I can tell was rejected.
Steve
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Chester Courant - Tuesday 07 June 1825 - Auction of property - Lot VI "A dwelling house and garden with 2 crofts to the same belonging, situate in Esclusham above, in the parish of Wrexham, in the county of Denbigh, now or late in the holding of Mary Griffiths."
Not sure I would want to read "now or late" against my name in the papers!
The same property had been for sale by auction on 30 Sept 1824, as item 1 in an auction where item 2 was "The Great Rock Lime Works" of Minera with 4 kilns, limestone quarry and 3 stone quarries. But thats a different story. The Mary Griffths property is described as "The inheritance in fee of and in a small dwelling-house and garden with 2 crofts to the same belonging, situate in esclusham above, in the parish of Wrexham, in the county of Denbigh, in the holding of Mary Griffiths."
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It's a very big jigsaw puzzle :)
A Mary Griffiths aged 86 b 1747 buried 5 June 1833 at Wrexham.
Of Esclusham Above.
This is the best shot as regards to abode and age. Age is a little bit out but at that age there's a margin of error.
No will found.
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It's a very big jigsaw puzzle :)
A jigsaw with a lot of pieces missing, especially with the Griffith family. I hoped Mary Griffith (nee Roberts) would be the missing link, but we don't even know if this is the same Griffiths family.
Steve
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My attention has been drawn to the will of John Roberts of Plas yn Vron in Esclusham, drawn up in 1788 and proven in 1800 (date of death appears to be in 1799). In this he states that the lease on the property is for three lives (i.e. runs until the last of three named people die). The named people are the aforementioned John Roberts and two of his sons, Edward and Robert Roberts. Also named is his wife Mary, his eldest son, Thomas Roberts, another son William Roberts, and his daughter Mary now married to John Hughes.
I wondered if John could be another son of Owen Roberts of Holt, but John leaves properties in Hope (to his son Thomas Roberts), and properties in Ruabon (to John Humphreys and Samuel Lindop), with no mention of Holt, so perhaps this is a different Roberts family line.
Plas yn Vron was leased from Ellis Yonge (deceased), of Acton.
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http://hdl.handle.net/10107/633325
Will of Samuel Lindop 1800. Cae Glase.
If you go back to reply 69, Cae Glas is mentioned.
I think this might be the Cae Glas up by Bronwylfa.
I'm not finding a positive burial for John Roberts, 1799 none have an age, one in Wrexham, one in Ruabon but no real use.
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Curious that both wills (John Roberts and Samuel Lindop) were proved on the same day.
I was unable to decipher the place name for Samuel Lindop in John Roberts' will, but you are right, it appears to be Cae Glase. I still can't decode the place name for John Humphreys.
This generosity to other families, Humphreys and Lindop, could be that their wives (Pamela Lindop for example) are John Roberts' sisters.
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http://hdl.handle.net/10107/139971
John Roberts will 1800.
So I know where to find it 😉
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tod/
The Canal. I know about this, some say that it's part of Telfords Ffrwd canal but I don't think it is.
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tof/
John Humphreys Canal.
He did make a will.
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So the name is 'Canal' - I thought maybe Canal Inn re-reading the will of John Roberts, I had discounted Canal as being such a strange name for a property.
Although you have found a gravestone for John Humphreys dated 1798, before John Roberts died (although after the date of writing his will), I see in the papers in March 1809 that the marriage was announced between "John Humphreys, Esq, of Canal and Miss Allington of Berse".
Perhaps there was a succession of John Humphreys, fathers naming their first son and heir after themselves, as is often the case.
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X Marriage Bonds.
X Lindop, Samuel, singleman, Wrexham, Denbighshire to Trevor, Elizabeth, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1777 Jun 23.
Elizabeth Lindop burial Date 2 May 1787
X Thomas, John, singleman, Wrexham, Denbighshire to Evans, Pamela, sp., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1785 Dec. 9.
X Lindop, Samuel, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire to Thomas, Pamela, wid., Wrexham, Denbighshire : 1790 May 21.
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Will of Richard Trevor . Cae Glass. 1787 / 1801
Samuel Lindop is his son in law.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/1013313