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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 15:04 GMT (UK)

Title: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 15:04 GMT (UK)
This is my brick wall as I can't find anything about these relatives, in terms of parents.
I know they married in Troqueer, 11 August, 1846. They must have moved to Liverpool soon afterwards as a child is born there in 1848, and the 1851 census has them living in Liverpool.

From that census John McEwan was a blacksmith.

I struggled to find out much about them but recently found their grave in Liverpool. Of which this is the inscription, In memory of / Isabella Smith, / wife of John McEWAN, / late of Dumfries, who died / Septr. 5th 1868, aged 58 years. / Also John McEWAN, died / Decr. 19. 1879, aged 68 years.

I've tried looking to get more info re: their wedding, birth records, census etc but can't find anything - and for some reason I can't log into the scotlandspeople website.  I've found no one on ancestry that has a shared link to them, or a DNA match - so they are quite the mystery.  The grave they were buried in was part of the non-conformist section of the cemetary, so wondering if that is the reason why records pertaining to them are difficult to find.

Any help would be hugely appreciated as I've lost count of the number of hours I've spent looking into them to hit this brick wall!!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 19 December 24 15:36 GMT (UK)
Death  :-\
MCEWAN, ISABELLA       age 51 
GRO Reference: 1868  Sept Quarter in LIVERPOOL 
Volume 08B  Page 52
 
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 15:44 GMT (UK)
What information, if anything, is on their marriage record?

Possible 1841 census for Isabella.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034d38e9379091b1492f62/isabella-smith-1841-kirkcudbrightshire-troqueer-1813-?locale=en
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 15:50 GMT (UK)
This is the only info I have gotten,

Name   John McEwan
Gender   Male
Marriage Date   11 Aug 1846
Marriage Place   Troqueer, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
Spouse   Isabela Smith

I've not seen a certificate, or such like. Just this I'm afraid
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 15:53 GMT (UK)
What information, if anything, is on their marriage record?

Possible 1841 census for Isabella.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034d38e9379091b1492f62/isabella-smith-1841-kirkcudbrightshire-troqueer-1813-?locale=en

That looks promising, I will do some digging around on that info - many thanks. I guess Hugh was her brother? or close relation?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 15:57 GMT (UK)
The marriage record is available on Scotlands People. It is the church record, not a certificate, but might give the parish of origin or place names, or names of a witness. Worthwhile obtaining.

The 1841 census, I think Isabella and Hugh are more likely to be siblings.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 16:11 GMT (UK)
Hugh Smith married Mary Grierson in 1844 in Dumfries.

Census records shows him as born in Troqueer.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 16:34 GMT (UK)
Yes, I saw that I've just found him on the 1851 census, in which he's also got his sister in law living in the house an Eliza Grierson. So that works out. I'm trying to see if there are any records showing who his parents are, as that would presumably be Isabella parents too (if the calculated guess that they are siblings is correct!)
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 16:47 GMT (UK)
If I can get 100% that Isabella and Hugh were siblings that would really crack this open I think! More digging methinks this evening for me! Not sure on the McEwan side of things, but I'm thinking he may not have been from this area of Scotland? I am registering on scotlandspeople to see if the marriage record offers any clues - is it correct that you can't get PDF downloads or suchlike? but just actual physical copies for £12?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 17:02 GMT (UK)
Hugh and Mary, and their daughter Phyllis, are in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses, and all of them say that Hugh was born in Troqueer.

There's no listing of Hugh in the LDS 1881 census transcription at Scotland's People.

There are four deaths between 1871 and 1881 of Hugh Smith, born 1815 plus or minus 5 years: see screenshot.

There are no baptisms of Smiths, mother's surname McDougall, Kelly or Glen in Troqueer, but there are three baptisms of children in Troqueer to William Smith and Agnes Gilchrist; John 1815, Helen 1818 and William 1820.

Would it be worth a look to see if Hugh is a brother whose baptism record has not survived?

Also note two more death of Smiths with mother's surname Gilchrist in Loudoun, the same parish where Hugh's death is registered. Might they be sisters?

And there is John Smith, died 1892 in Keir aged 76, mother Gilchrist. In 1891 John Smith, 75, born Troqueer, is in Keir with wife and family.


Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 17:05 GMT (UK)
I am registering on scotlandspeople to see if the marriage record offers any clues - is it correct that you can't get PDF downloads or suchlike? but just actual physical copies for £12?
No, that is not correct. You can get an image of original documents for £1.50 each, as long as they are old enough, which the ones you want are.

I will be surprised if the marriage record nails Isabella's parentage, but would be delighted to be proved wrong.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 17:13 GMT (UK)
Probably being thick but I've found the record on scotlandspeople, the options are buy credits or order certificate, do I just buy credits to access the record and then download?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 17:34 GMT (UK)
Hugh and Mary, and their daughter Phyllis, are in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses, and all of them say that Hugh was born in Troqueer.


I decided to chase down the Hugh Smith potential brother link. I've now found 2 DNA matches against him which is very interesting and he is in their trees. It's obviously a weakish link but closer than I've ever been before to getting somewhere. Both of these 2 DNA matches have the father of Hugh as James Smith and Mary Reid (no citation), but no mention of an Isabella. Obviously take what Ancestry "suggests" as potentially wrong, but this looks good on face value. Will contact them to see to see how they got the info! Been looking at Maxwelltown on Google Maps as it seems they  lived around that area and very close to a non conformist church which again is a possible link this might be the right line.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 17:43 GMT (UK)
Probably being thick but I've found the record on scotlandspeople, the options are buy credits or order certificate, do I just buy credits to access the record and then download?
You buy credits and download it on the spot. I think the minimum number of credits you can buy is 30, so you'll have enough to look at 4 more documents.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 17:50 GMT (UK)
The grave they were buried in was part of the non-conformist section of the cemetary, so wondering if that is the reason why records pertaining to them are difficult to find.
Maybe that might account for difficulty finding records in England.

But remember that the term "non-conformist" specifically means someone who does not conform to the Church of England. It is irrelevant and meaningless in Scotland, not least because neither the Church of Scotland nor any of the other assorted Presbyterian denominations conforms to the Church of England. Nor, of course, do Roman Catholics.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 17:58 GMT (UK)
John and Isabella McEwan are in Liverpool in the 1851 census, with Robert, 8, born Scotland and John, 3 and Isabella, 1, both born Liverpool. I have yet to find them in 1861, or John in 1871.

Robert might be interesting. Obviously, if he was 8, he was born before the marriage of John and Isabella, so it might be worth a trawl through the Troqueer Kirk Session records to see if there is a record of an illegitimate child to either John or Isabella in 1841/1846.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 18:08 GMT (UK)
John and Isabella McEwan are in Liverpool in the 1851 census, with Robert, 8, born Scotland and John, 3 and Isabella, 1, both born Liverpool. I have yet to find them in 1861, or John in 1871.

Robert might be interesting. Obviously, if he was 8, he was born before the marriage of John and Isabella, so it might be worth a trawl through the Troqueer Kirk Session records to see if there is a record of an illegitimate child to either John or Isabella in 1841/1846.

Yes, I saw this - but as is the way with census records (it appears) their ages jump around a fair bit!  I have done a lot of digging into this and I am not 100% sure if Robert was actually their child. There are a few people who think he was son of a Peter McEwan from Barony (Glasgow) so potentially he came down to Liverpool with his Uncle? or there were some errors on the records. I've tied myself up in knots over the years with this!! The reason I am sidetracked with the nonconformist issue is that Isabella McEwan, who is the daughter of John and Isabella marries David Hughes Williams - and he was part of really strong welsh non conformist / calvinistic methodist family, which makes me think they would have had to have similar religious beliefs. But who knows! I wasn't aware of the situation in Scotland, but in Wales lots of the non conformist records have been hard to track down.  Thanks for your help though, very much appreciated,
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 18:25 GMT (UK)
Yes, I saw this - but as is the way with census records (it appears) their ages jump around a fair bit!  I have done a lot of digging into this and I am not 100% sure if Robert was actually their child.
Well, the original census does say explicitly that he is (John's) son.

Quote
There are a few people who think he was son of a Peter McEwan from Barony (Glasgow) so potentially he came down to Liverpool with his Uncle?
Now, I wonder where that could have come from?

There is only one baptism in Glasgow of a Robert whose father's name is Peter: a Roman Catholic record from St Mary's, Glasgow. Date of birth 6 October 1845, mother Euphemia Ruffell (which is a mistranscription of Russell). This Robert is in the 1851 census in Glasgow, aged 5, with his parents and two siblings, so you can confidently eliminate him from your research.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Thursday 19 December 24 18:37 GMT (UK)
Yes, I saw this - but as is the way with census records (it appears) their ages jump around a fair bit!  I have done a lot of digging into this and I am not 100% sure if Robert was actually their child.
Well, the original census does say explicitly that he is (John's) son.

Quote
There are a few people who think he was son of a Peter McEwan from Barony (Glasgow) so potentially he came down to Liverpool with his Uncle?
Now, I wonder where that could have come from?

There is only one baptism in Glasgow of a Robert whose father's name is Peter: a Roman Catholic record from St Mary's, Glasgow. Date of birth 6 October 1845, mother Euphemia Ruffell (which is a mistranscription of Russell). This Robert is in the 1851 census in Glasgow, aged 5, with his parents and two siblings, so you can confidently eliminate him from your research.

Yes, I thought that was a red herring (hence sceptical of ancestry suggestions), the Robert born in Scotland though disappears off the radar in Liverpool quite early on but can't see any death. I know John the brother died in 1858 aged 10. There is a reference of a Robert McEwan working on Ships that were going between Liverpool and New York for a period where his DOB kind of ties in with what I have so that could be him (as he might have been on the ship when the censuses were taken). I've never found any concrete proof though one way or the other.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 21:49 GMT (UK)
1861 census for John and Isabella McEwan ( John still working as a blacksmith)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7GP-4J7


Death
McEWAN, JOHN              age 72 
GRO Reference: 1879  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 150

Burial record for Anfield cemetery Liverpool -
John McEwan - 72 years, blacksmith, died workhouse hospital, purchased grave.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 22:06 GMT (UK)
Good find - I see he's listed as John M Ewan. Not McEwan.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 22:48 GMT (UK)
Robert might be interesting. Obviously, if he was 8, he was born before the marriage of John and Isabella, so it might be worth a trawl through the Troqueer Kirk Session records to see if there is a record of an illegitimate child to either John or Isabella in 1841/1846.

Troqueer Kirk Session minutes
24 Sept 1843
This is the child of Isabella Smith – named Robert, after his father Robert Coupland of Bushcroft.
(see attachment)
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 22:49 GMT (UK)
Troqueer Kirk Session minutes
5 Nov 1843
Isabella Smith absolved of guilt
(see 2nd attachment)

This will be the father Robert Copeland in 1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034d37e9379091b1492a15/robert-copeland-1841-kirkcudbrightshire-troqueer-1811-?locale=en
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 19 December 24 22:55 GMT (UK)
Well trawled, Neale1961 :)

Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 19 December 24 23:37 GMT (UK)
Robert Russell McEwan born abt 1843 Scotland, married Janet Stobo in 1871, Liverpool. He died in 1908, Merseyside.
Is this the same Robert McEwan as the illegitimate son of Isabella SMith?

I wonder where the "Russell" comes from? Is the name a hint / link to his mother's forebears, or is he a red herring?

------------

Have you established any connection between the McEwan family and the Hughson – Clark family from Scotland living in Liverpool? Isabella McEwan (the daughter) is seen with that family in a census record.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 20 December 24 00:29 GMT (UK)
Post deleted, to avoid confusion, as it was information about unrelated / wrong Smith family.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 08:11 GMT (UK)


Death
McEWAN, JOHN              age 72 
GRO Reference: 1879  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 150

Burial record for Anfield cemetery Liverpool -
John McEwan - 72 years, blacksmith, died workhouse hospital, purchased grave.

Many thanks Neale1961 for all the digging you have done, it really is much appreciated.  Re: John McEwan I have the Burial Record which states he was 72 (all the other details are correct) but I have also visited the grave, and on it, it states he was 68 when he died. So not sure which age is correct!!

Re: Robert Russell McEwan - I (like Forfarian) believe this might not be the correct Robert McEwan. I found a thread here where someone has got the marriage certificate of Robert Russell McEwan and  Janet Stobo - and the father is a Peter McEwan, which will be the one shown in Post 17 here. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=371137.msg2476938#msg2476938

I think having 2 Robert McEwan's with similar ages, being in the same area of Liverpool at the same time has probably thrown a few!! However there is a nagging feeling that they could still be connected (somehow). Isabella lived at one point on Pluto Street in Liverpool and Robert Russell McEwan lived on the next street Vesuvious Street.

There are multiple instances of another Robert McEwan sailing back and forth to New York from Liverpool so my guess he could be the correct one, but will have to do some more digging.

I noticed that Isabella lived with the Hughson ladies as a "Teacher - Unemployed in 1871", but have no information on any links to that family I'm afraid apart from they were also Scottish.

I noticed in the Troqueer Kirk Session records you kindly put up, that Isabella (the mother) was from South Maxwelltown - which fits in with the previously mentioned Hugh Smith being the brother. I've found 2 DNA matches to Hugh - the first matches I've found to any person in that area, so that looks promising.

I couldn't decipher everything in the Kirk Session records you put up, but there is a mention that Isabella was in Newcastle? Not sure if that is a link too?

I will have a look at the other records you have put up to see if I can put more of the jigsaw together. I've messaged the people who have Hugh Smith in their ancestry trees and have James Smith and Mary Reid as his father to see how they got that information. They have the date he died as 12/12/1885 - but not sure how they have got that as they havent referenced a source.

Many thanks again! :)
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 08:18 GMT (UK)
Also as an aside I'm not sure if it was common practice at the time, but on the grave it states Isabella Smith, the wife of John Mcewan. Most of the graves I have seen never mention the maiden name.

Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 20 December 24 09:28 GMT (UK)
Also as an aside I'm not sure if it was common practice at the time, but on the grave it states Isabella Smith, the wife of John Mcewan. Most of the graves I have seen never mention the maiden name.
In Scotland it is absolutely the norm for a woman's maiden name to be on her gravestone.

In Scots Law a woman doesn't lose her own name on marriage, and until a couple of hundred years ago, plus or minus, she was usually still known by her maiden surname after her marriage. In legal documents she is named xxx yyy or zzz, where xxx is her given name, yyy is her maiden name and zzz is her husband's surname. (Much clearer than the American usage xxx yyy zzz, where you don't know if yyy is a middle name or a maiden surname) Sometimes, in the earlier censuses, you'll find a family where the wife's surname is different from the rest, or a widow listed under her own surname rather than her husband's.

It's also why you mostly get the mother's maiden surname in a Scottish baptism record, and why Scotland's People is generally able to index married women's deaths by their maiden surnames, and most deaths by the deceased's mother's maiden surname, though they haven't quite got to the point where all records are indexed by mother's maiden surname - it's still work in progress.

Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 20 December 24 09:35 GMT (UK)
Robert Russell McEwan born abt 1843 Scotland, married Janet Stobo in 1871, Liverpool. He died in 1908, Merseyside.
Is this the same Robert McEwan as the illegitimate son of Isabella SMith?

I wonder where the "Russell" comes from? Is the name a hint / link to his mother's forebears, or is he a red herring?
Er .... my reply #17 above perhaps?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 20 December 24 09:40 GMT (UK)
Regarding the Kirk Sessions attachment1
Isabella states that the father of the child was (at that time) in Newcastle and had sent her a one pound note.
Isabella was not in Newcastle as she appeared at least twice at the Troqueer kirk sessions in 1843.

Added - it says Isabella Smith from Maxwelltown. No mention of south.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 13:01 GMT (UK)
Just an update, downloaded the marriage records for both Isabella Smith / John McEwan & Hugh Smith & Mary Grierson. There is not any further info provided tbh, no mention of parents, witnesses etc. John McEwan is down as Smith at the "something illegible - potentially gas works" in Maxwelltown. I also downloaded the 1841 census page for Isabella & Hugh Smith, not much more info on there either than whats been seen tbh.

Re: Hugh Smith and possible parents being William Smith and Agnes Gilchrist. The Hugh Smith which has his death registered in Loudoun, looks like he was born and raised in Loudoun. He was born in 20/10/1816 to a Hugh Smith and Jean Gilchrist.

I've got some credits left on scotlandspeople, so if anyone has any advice on anything I should check out let me know!!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 13:37 GMT (UK)
So I have found the death certificate of Hugh Smith (well the one which someone on Ancestry used to state his parents were James Smith and Mary Reid). It is from 1885, his profession on it is Flesher (Master) so that ties on with his occupation throughout his life. His address is St Michaels Street which again ties in with his last known address. Why there is no record in 1881 of him is an anomaly I guess. Also his age is recorded as 64.

His son James is mentioned as informant.

I guess this looks like the winner - for now! Will try and figure out who James Smith and Mary Reid were now!!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 20 December 24 13:54 GMT (UK)
Hmmm.

We have Hugh Smith and Isabella Smith together in the 1841 census. He's 22, a butcher journeyman, and she's 28.

Then we have Hugh Smith, butcher, in 1851 with wife Mary; daughters Agnes, 6; Phyllis, 3; Janet,1; and Eliza Grierson, sister-in-law, 21. All born Troqueer except Eliza.

In 1861 there are Hugh, butcher; wife Mary; daughter Phillies, 13 and son James, 8, all born in Troqueer.

There is a death of a Janet Smith, mother's surname Grierson, in Dumfries in 1859. I would want to look at that death certificate to see if she is the daughter of Hugh Smith and Mary Grierson. If she is, I think it would tie them all together, and that would provide evidence to suggest that Isabella Smith and Hugh Smith were sister and brother.

There are baptisms of Agnes on 23 January 1844, Phillias on 1 December 1847 and James on 22 August 1852 to Hugh Smith in Troqueer, but only James' gives his mother's name, only just as Mary.

Inconveniently, there is also a baptism of a Thomas Smith, parents Hugh Smith and Mary Grierson, on 26 January 1844 in Dumfries - three days after the baptism of Agnes. So I'd want to take a look at all those baptisms to see what they say.

I also wonder what became of Hugh and Mary. I see that a Mary Smith or Grierson died in Dumfries in 1889 aged 67, which is within the range of dates of birth from the censuses.

There's a marriage of a Phyllis Smith in Dumfries in 1875. Was this Hugh's daughter?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 14:39 GMT (UK)


There is a death of a Janet Smith, mother's surname Grierson, in Dumfries in 1859. I would want to look at that death certificate to see if she is the daughter of Hugh Smith and Mary Grierson. If she is, I think it would tie them all together, and that would provide evidence to suggest that Isabella Smith and Hugh Smith were sister and brother.



I've just downloaded the said record. Yes, this is the daughter of Hugh Smith and Mary Grierson.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 14:55 GMT (UK)
I found anotice that Hugh invested in the Castle Douglas and Dumfries Railway in 1860. So he seemed to be doing OK for himself! I've been trying to follow the Phyllis Smith line through as the people with shared DNA matches seem to be linked to her. She married William Johnston in 1875 in Dumfries, he was a horse dealer. I'll have to do a bit more digging around this side as some of the ancestry trees suggests that her children did quite well for themselves. Obviously will have to verify things.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 20 December 24 15:15 GMT (UK)
So if we think that Hugh and Isabella in the 1841 census are brother and sister, if would follow that Isabella's parents were James Smith and Mary Reid.

What does Hugh's death certificate say was the occupation of his father James Smith?

Unless there were two James Smiths both married to Mary Reids, James and Mary got about a bit. See screenshot.

In 1851 James Smith, shoemaker, born Mauchline, is in Glasgow with wife Mary, 58, born New Cumnock and daughter Margaret, 21, born Mauchline, and a grandchild.

They might be the family in Fenwick in 1841: James, shoe maker, 50; Mary, 45; Mary, 19; John, 14; Adam, 16; William, 12; Margaret, 10; all born Ayrshire.

But if Isabella was 28 in the 1841 census, she was born in 1812/13 and Hugh was born 1818/19. Isabella's YoB is not a problem, but for Hugh to the theirs they must have moved briefly from Ayrshire to Troqueer, and then Hugh and Isabella moved back to Troqueer, so this family is probably a red herring.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 15:40 GMT (UK)
I can't decipher what occupation James Smith had, maybe you will be better at assessing it!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 20 December 24 15:56 GMT (UK)
Currier.

That's useful because it's not quite as common as some - ag lab for example. The James Smith in Ayrshire is a shoemaker, which is not the same thing, so tends to suggest that the Ayrshire couple, although the names match, are probably not the parents of Hugh and hence of Isabella.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 16:20 GMT (UK)
Just to add a little more to this, I was looking at Male Heads of Families for Maxwelltown on the oldscottish website and there is a James Smith, Shoemaker for a number of years in the 1830's.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 20 December 24 21:03 GMT (UK)
Just an update, downloaded the marriage records for both Isabella Smith / John McEwan  John McEwan is down as Smith at the "something illegible - potentially gas works" in Maxwelltown.

In order to try a find John McEwan in the 1841 census, it is fairly important to know more about his occupation / work. If you can't read the writing, please post, so we can help.
Knowing occupations is very important when tracing lives of ancestors.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 20 December 24 21:07 GMT (UK)
So I have found the death certificate of Hugh Smith (well the one which someone on Ancestry used to state his parents were James Smith and Mary Reid). It is from 1885, his profession on it is Flesher (Master) so that ties on with his occupation throughout his life. His address is St Michaels Street which again ties in with his last known address. Why there is no record in 1881 of him is an anomaly I guess. Also his age is recorded as 64.

His son James is mentioned as informant.
This is good progress.  :)    Do be aware that often death certificates can throw up wrong, or misleading information. The information regarding parents can be erroneous, simply because the informant didn't know or remember correctly. Important to keep an open mind at this point.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Friday 20 December 24 21:11 GMT (UK)

In order to try a find John McEwan in the 1841 census, it is fairly important to know more about his occupation / work. If you can't read the writing, please post, so we can help.
Knowing occupations is very important when tracing lives of ancestors.


This is the marriage record, hope you can decipher! I know he was a blacksmith in Liverpool so presume smith here is shortened from blacksmith
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 20 December 24 21:54 GMT (UK)
John McEwan Smith at the Gass Works Maxwelltown &
Isabella Smith Maxwelltown, both of Troqueer
Married at Maxwelltown by the Rev Walter McFarline
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 20 December 24 22:09 GMT (UK)
I have been looking through the Troqueer Graveyard Memorial Inscriptions.
There are quite a lot of Smith names that come up.
I offer two of interest.


432.  Sacred to the memory of Hugh SMITH who died 12th Decr 1885 aged 73 years.
Also Mary Bridges his wife who died 30th Decr 1889 aged 76 years.
Thomas SMITH son of Hugh SMITH flesher in Dumfries who died in infancy.
Also Janet SMITH daughter of the above Hugh Smith who died 23rd Sept 1859 aged 9 years
and 7 months. Also Mary DAVIDSON granddaughter of the above Hugh Smith
died 26th April 1871 aged 14 weeks. Also Robert SMITH son of James SMITH
flesher and grandson of Hugh SMITH who died 19th Decr 1879 aged 11months.
Also Janet SMITH who died 7th June 1887 aged 4 years. Also Hugh SMITH who
died 22nd Decr 1888 aged 6 years. Children of the above James SMITH.
And William JOHNSTONE his son who died 28th Decr 1891 aged 3½ years. Also the
said James SMITH flesher who died at Dumfries 24th August 1892 aged 38 years.
[a flat stone]

(Is Mary Bridges supposed to be Mary Grierson? Mis-reading or Transcription error?)



This is the only one that mentions a James Smith, but interesting that wife was a Reed/ Reid

 
476.   Erected by Agnes SMITH in memory of James SMITH her father and Catherine
REED his spouse who died of choleria 1839. Also Thomas SMITH their son who
died at Summer Hill March 18th 1836 aged 16 years.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Saturday 21 December 24 07:39 GMT (UK)
I also noticed the Mary Bridges name. Which seems odd. I am wondering if Mary Grierson died and Mary Bridges was a later wife , or that it has been transcribed wrong?

This is the death record of Janet Smith who you have as the 9 year old. As you can see, Hugh Smith and Mary Grierson were her parents.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Saturday 21 December 24 07:44 GMT (UK)


This is the only one that mentions a James Smith, but interesting that wife was a Reed/ Reid

 
476.   Erected by Agnes SMITH in memory of James SMITH her father and Catherine
REED his spouse who died of choleria 1839. Also Thomas SMITH their son who
died at Summer Hill March 18th 1836 aged 16 years.

I noted this and not sure if it is relevant but there is a James Smith, Agnes Smith and child Catherine living on Glasgow Street, Maxwelltown in 1841. The same street Isabella and Hugh were living on in 1841. I wonder if they have some relevance?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 21 December 24 09:40 GMT (UK)
Hugh Smith’s death certificate should name who he was married to at the time of his death.

A Mary Grierson Smith did die in 1889 in Dumfries.

The name Bridges may have been an error by who ever ordered the memorial inscription, which might have been many years after,    or it could be that the inscription on the grave stone is hard to read, and the transcriber deciphered that way.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Saturday 21 December 24 10:21 GMT (UK)
I've just had a closer look at the death certificate and in fact he is put down as being married to Mary Bridges - not a Mary Grierson. Which is a puzzle.

Also I think you found that he was down as 73 when he died on the Grave Inscription, but on here its showing 64.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 21 December 24 10:30 GMT (UK)
Yes, ages on memorial inscription might differ from certificates depending on the memory of whoever ordered the grave stone.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 21 December 24 11:41 GMT (UK)
I've just had a closer look at the death certificate and in fact he is put down as being married to Mary Bridges - not a Mary Grierson. Which is a puzzle.
Indeed.

I wonder if Bridges might be Mary Grierson's mother' maiden name? There are 4 baptisms of children to John G and Agnes Bridges in Tinwald between 1810 and 1818. And a grandmother's maiden name instead of a mother's is probably the most common error I've seen in death certificates.

In 1841 Hugh is 22, so born 1818/1819
In 1851 he is 34, so born 1816/1817
In 1861 he is 46, so born 1814/1815
In 1871 he is 55, so born 1815/1816
On the death certificate he is 64 so born 1821 (or, just possibly, 1820 but the death date is so close to the end of the year that it's unlikely)
On the stone Hugh is 73, so born 1812 (or, just possibly, 1811)

1811/1821 is quite a span of years! Especially between the certificate and the stone.


Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Saturday 21 December 24 12:08 GMT (UK)
I've just got Mary Grierson death certificate. On this she dies in 1889, and is the widower of Hugh Smith, Flesher) . She is recorded as being 67 at time of death, so born approx 1822. She has father as Thomas Grierson (farmer) and mother Janet Smith. So no link to Bridges as I can see.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Saturday 21 December 24 12:13 GMT (UK)
The only match I am getting on a Thomas Grierson is this from St.Mungo so not a million miles away from Dumfries. But it has marriage down as 1835. Which would be 13 years after Mary was born??
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 21 December 24 15:59 GMT (UK)
The plot thickens .... but if these are Mary's parents, perhaps there is something in the Kirk Session records?

Though I suppose, really, that tracing Mary's antecedents is a bit of a red herring when it comes to Isabella's forebears.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Saturday 21 December 24 16:07 GMT (UK)


Though I suppose, really, that tracing Mary's antecedents is a bit of a red herring when it comes to Isabella's forebears.

Yes this one is a bit of rabbit hole distraction! I did find the census record for this couple though and they had several kids with surname Grierson before 1835 - so it wasnt unusual for them! The couple were born abt 1800 so that would fit with Mary Grierson being born circa 1822.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 21 December 24 21:51 GMT (UK)
It could be the conflicting surnames is a case of the informant (son James Smith) making an error on the death registration of his father. It does seem odd if he didn’t know his mother’s maiden name – but this is not un-heard of in my experience.
If Phillis had been the informant, the information on Hugh’s death certificate might have been different. Women talked within the household about family and make better informants than men, who don’t tend to discuss names of ancestors, etc.
I think that James Smith then paid for and commissioned the graveyard stone around 1890 and repeated the same information on the inscription, while not remembering the ages at death particularly well. Then I believe that Phillis added to the inscription, the last 2 names – her son William Johnson and her brother James Smith.

ADDED
Have just noticed that when Phillis Smith died in 1913- her mother’s maiden name is recorded on the index as Bridges.
I wonder when she married, who she recorded as her mother?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/185565858/phillis-johnston

Yes, a distracting conundrum.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Sunday 22 December 24 09:18 GMT (UK)
I'm at a loss where the Bridges element comes into all this! Phyllis was born in 1847 and her sister Janet born 1850. Janet died aged 9, and has Mary Grierson as her mother, when Mary Grierson dies she has her mother as Mary Smith - so not sure how Bridges ends up on multiple separate documents. Unless an error has just been perpetuated.

The person I contacted from Ancestry has got back to me, all his information has come from his wifes side and he has sourced his info from scotlandspeople. He also has pictures of Hugh and Jane and various offspring which have been passed down the generations. Some of Phillis line ends up in the Falklands and Patagonia in the mid to late 1800s - another offshoot ends up marrying the Countess of Suffolk! He's give me some more links to follow, but is no wiser than us regards to Isabella being the sister of Hugh (or indeed their parents)

Bizarrely I have several DNA matches in Argentina (Patagonia), but always assumed they were from my Welsh Ancestors ( one of them who marries Isabella's daugher, Isabella in Liverpool) who went over and set up a Welsh community.  They were heavily religious (welsh calvinistic methodists) and I have found some links to say Hugh Smith was involved in presbytarian churches quite heavily in Maxwelltown.

I would love to get as close to 100% on Isabella being the brother of Hugh, there are enough pointers to suggest this is the case - but still no silver bullet yet!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Sunday 22 December 24 09:20 GMT (UK)
Hugh Smith
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Sunday 22 December 24 09:20 GMT (UK)
Mary Grierson
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Sunday 22 December 24 10:17 GMT (UK)
I've found James Smith marriage certificate. He married 1877 to a Jane Dickson, he has his father as Hugh Smith, mother Mary Grierson.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 22 December 24 11:34 GMT (UK)
So Bridges appears in three primary places. First on Hugh's death certificate, second on his gravestone, and third on Phyllis' death certificate.

Phyllis was the informant on Mary's death certificate, so she obviously believed her mother's maiden surname was Bridges, therefore it's not surprising that that is what her own death certificate says.

But .... on her marriage certificate Phyllis says her mother was Mary Grierson! So Mary's surname apparently changed between Phyllis' marriage and Hugh's death.

I wonder if Mary's mother could have been born illegitimate, and known by both surnames?






Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Sunday 22 December 24 12:24 GMT (UK)
Getting back on to the McEwan angle for a minute, I started looking at the Kirk Session Minutes in Troqueer for 1810. I came across this entry, can't fully decipher it all, but it looks like a marriage between a John McEwan and an Agnes Smith in 1810. The John McEwan I am looking at was born in 1811, so would tie in.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 22 December 24 13:02 GMT (UK)
I have searched the 1841 census extensively, for a John McEwan ( various spellings) of approx. the correct age, single, working as a smith in the Troqueer - Maxwelltowm - Dumfries area.
Found nothing, so perhaps he wasn’t working as a smith as early as 1841 OR he wasn’t living in that area.
I did find this possibility, which may be of interest.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034d38e9379091b14930cf/agnes-mcken-1841-kirkcudbrightshire-troqueer-1781-?locale=en
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 22 December 24 13:46 GMT (UK)
I did find this possibility, which may be of interest.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034d38e9379091b14930cf/agnes-mcken-1841-kirkcudbrightshire-troqueer-1781-?locale=en
FindMyPast also transcribes it as McKen but Scotland's People thinks it's McHen.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 22 December 24 13:51 GMT (UK)
Getting back on to the McEwan angle for a minute, I started looking at the Kirk Session Minutes in Troqueer for 1810. I came across this entry, can't fully decipher it all, but it looks like a marriage between a John McEwan and an Agnes Smith in 1810. The John McEwan I am looking at was born in 1811, so would tie in.
There's a baptism in 1815 in Dunscore of James McKown, son of John McKown and Agnes Smith, on 28 September 1815.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 22 December 24 21:05 GMT (UK)
The only other 1841 census for John McEwan that I tagged as a vague possibility was this one in Dumfries, but it holds little information, and I think it is unlikely.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902e791e9379091b1d2c8cc/john-mckain-1841-dumfriesshire-dumfries-1806-?locale=en
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 22 December 24 21:08 GMT (UK)
I would love to get as close to 100% on Isabella being the brother of Hugh, there are enough pointers to suggest this is the case - but still no silver bullet yet!
I don't think you'll find a silver bullet. But isn't the purpose of DNA to find matches that cannot be found in documentation.
In my opinion (for what it's worth), Isabella and Hugh were siblings.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 22 December 24 21:13 GMT (UK)
In my opinion (for what it's worth), Isabella were Hugh are siblings.
I concur.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 23 December 24 02:40 GMT (UK)
There's a baptism in 1815 in Dunscore of James McKown, son of John McKown and Agnes Smith, on 28 September 1815.
Also a son named Thomas baptised in Troqueer in 1821.
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Monday 23 December 24 09:44 GMT (UK)
I think it is really difficult to pinpoint McEwans down as there are so many variations on the name being transcribed, I've seen MacEwan, McKewn, McKune, McKen, Mackewen, McEoun and Mackeown in various trees - and I seem to have DNA matches to people sharing all the above names. Matching back to Agnes Smith seems the easier route and that gives me John McKown which is the one you mention above. Thank you again for the help provided!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Tuesday 24 December 24 08:27 GMT (UK)
As to point out the fact further this is the transciption (I think) of the John MacEwan / Agnes Smith marriage on Ancestry!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Tuesday 24 December 24 08:48 GMT (UK)
Not 100% on James McEwan / Agnes Smith angle, but all dates tie in. I did a little more digging there was an Agnis Smith b.1789 in Troqueer to a James Smith and Janet Primrose. They had other children as I can see Kathrine Smith and David Smith.  A bit more digging around the Primroses see that some of them are Curriers & Tanners in Troqueer - which may be a link.

On the Isabella Smith side, I can see a James Smith being born to a John Smith & Mary Pagan in Troqueer in 1785.

and as an alternative, a James Smith being born to a John Smith & Catherine Herries, in Kirkgunzeon in 1787.

I've got a Mary McKenzie Reid being born in 1785 in Troqueer, to a James Reid & Margaret McDonald in 1785.

and as alternative a Mary Reid being born to a Peter Reid & Mary Kelly in 1782 again Troqueer.

I've some Herries and Pagan's in DNA matches so it's difficult to plump for either one without further proof.

Also found out that there at least a couple of fleshers in Maxwelltown/Troqueer in the early 1800's with the name McKune ( a Joseph & William )- which could have been a variation on McEwan.

I know with many braches of my family tree around this time, many people married others from similar professions, areas and families - so this could all be slightly interlinked. But who knows!
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 24 December 24 09:26 GMT (UK)
As to point out the fact further this is the transciption (I think) of the John MacEwan / Agnes Smith marriage on Ancestry!
It is also indexed on Scotlands People. I don’t suppose it will give more information than the note of the irregular marriage in the Session minutes. Maybe an occupation for John?
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: climbingthewalls on Monday 30 December 24 16:02 GMT (UK)
Photograph of a procession of the Fleshers (butchers) in the 1890s. This was one of the last Trade processions of the Incorporations of Dumfries. I am guessing one of my relatives would have been in this shot! Also noted a pub in Dumfries called the Fleshers Arms
Title: Re: John McEwan marries Isabella Smith in Troqueer, 1846 - Help!!
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 30 December 24 21:33 GMT (UK)
There they are, all in their striped butchers' aprons, but rather comically with bowler hat perched on top of head.  :)