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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: sft456 on Wednesday 18 December 24 22:27 GMT (UK)
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I would like to try & trace my 2 grandfathers in their spell in the Great War
Frederick Victor Harcourt NEWICK b 1897 Loughboro', enlisted 1914 in the Leicestershire Regiment, but had to re-enlist poss in 1915 due to not being 18 - rank unknown but probably Private - survived. I did once see a poss Sqeak & Alfred, but they are now probably lost
Frederick Mark TAYLOR b 1888 Leicester, conscripted in @July 1916 (married with a dau at the time) Leicestershire Regiment, sent to Salonica - rank I think Quarter Master Sergeant - demobbed probably 1919 - survived. I recall my late father once telling me that his father had been mentioned in dispatches
Can you help?
Thanks
sft456
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It doesn't look as if either if their service records have survived. As you may be aware approximately two thirds of all the records of First World War soldiers were destroyed in a fire during WW2 following a bombing raid. However the records of the medals they received should have survived but I haven't found them so far. Assuming they both went overseas they should have got the British War Medal and Victory Medal (Squeak and Wilfred, not Alfred). I am surprised that Frederick Mark Taylor was promoted to Colour Sergeant - the rank of someone holding the appointment of Company Quarter Master Sergeant - in just three years. It's not impossible for him to have done so, however I would suspect he may have had some prior Army experience, maybe in the Territorial Force or Militia before the war started, for such rapid promotion.
According to the Long, Long Trail website (http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/leicestershire-regiment/), which can usually be relied on as very accurate, none of the Leicestershire Regiment's battalions were sent to Greece during WW1. The only one which went anywhere other than France or the UK was the 2nd battalion which spent the latter part of the war in Mesopotamia and Palestine. It is of course possible that although he enlisted into the Leicesters, Frederick Mark Taylor was transferred to another regiment. As far as I am aware the only British troops who took part in the Thessaloniki Expedition were the 10th (Irish) Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_(Irish)_Division#Order_of_battle), whose infantry were mainly Irish or Canadian Regiments, with the only English battalion being the 10th Battalion of the Hampshire Regiment.
There is a militia attestation in the Leicester Regiment dated 13 Nov 1880 for a Frederick Mark Taylor of 42 Dorset Street Leicester, a shoe finisher aged 17 years and 9 months. Could this have been his father?
The only Frederick Newick entries I found referred to a Gunner Newick of 301 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery who received the British War Medal and Victory Medal.
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Many thanks for your reply Andy
Yes I am aware that 2 thirds were destroyed by German bombing incl I believe the 1931 C (complete)
Frederick Mark Taylor was, as I wrote, b 1888 so 28 when he enlisted. He was a Solicitor's Managing Clerk for a firm of solicitors in Leicester. He d in 1966, but I was too young to ask "What did you do in the Great War....." Perhaps Mesopotamia and Palestine were his fighting groumd. Anyway, if he did fight, he was back at his desk in @1919/20 and back with the Tigers as their scrum half in 1921 Season
What about the Leicestershire Regts archive (if one exists), would they know?
"Fred" Newick, I have several photos of in his battledress - with the foxes badgem but no dates, so really of little help
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The rapid promotion is not unusual so he may just have been a great soldier.
If you can post the photos there may be clues in the uniform.
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Reading the newspaper reports of the Tigers, F M Taylor seems to have been known as "Tim" Taylor.
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Reading the newspaper reports of the Tigers, F M Taylor seems to have been known as "Tim" Taylor.
He was, read Wiki
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There is a Frederick Victor Newick in the Leicester Absent Voters at 8 Victoria Avenue [Leicester South Polling area] He is shown as 141879 Gunner, 301 Siege Bttery RGA
Two other Newicks at the address are William Henry and Louis Wilfred Gladstone
Findmypast link https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL%2FER%2FD11%2FFMP000002381%2F0670&parentid=BL%2FER%2FD11%2FFMP000002381%2F0670
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Courtesy of the Long, Long Trail website here is a list of the deployments for 301 Siege battery.
(https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/SB301.jpg)
However Chris Baker (author of the LLT) says this, referring to the index cards: "I must point out that I have often found errors and omissions in the dates given. For an accurate picture including the locations and activities of the batteries, consult the war diary of the Heavy Artillery Group or Commander Heavy Artillery of the Corps concerned."
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There is a Frederick Victor Newick in the Leicester Absent Voters at 8 Victoria Avenue [Leicester South Polling area] He is shown as 141879 Gunner, 301 Siege Bttery RGA
Assuming this is the same man as the OP's grandfather, then his Army number has probably been misrecorded on the electoral register, since there is a medal index card for Frederick Newick RGA with the number 141789, showing that he was awarded the Victory and War medals, just as the OP claimed to have seen.
Numbers in the series 141590-142100 were allocated to men of the RGA who had transferred in from Infantry Regiments (information courtesy of the Long, Long Trail (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/numbering-the-men-of-the-royal-garrison-artillery/) website).
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My bad. It is 141789.
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Thanks for the information. I assume OP is me
So "Fred" V H Newick was a Gunner on 301 Siege Battery RGA - Royal Garrison Artillery? "branch of the British Army that operated heavy guns and howitzers"
141879 is that his army no? The dates on the list of deployments of 301 - is that 1917-1918?. Does it refer to the battery or an individual ie Fred.
None of this means a great deal to me
How did the powers that be know of his job in the war by being an voting absentee? The other 2 Newicks were his eldest & second eldest brothers.
Is it possible to provide further info - rank, unit, dates, location of the battery etc - only part of the details attached can be seen (as you aare aware)
For an accurate picture including the locations and activities of the batteries, consult the war diary of the Heavy Artillery Group or Commander Heavy Artillery of the Corps concerned."
How do I go about finding this?
Victory & War medals - 3 of them or just 2
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Hi sft456.
Gunner FVH Newick's number was 141789. Gwil mistyped it in his earlier posting on page one, and acknowledged this in post 9 above your most recent posting.
The image of the file card I attached in post 7 on page one shows the deployments of 301 Siege Battery for 1917; I don't know the original source, but given the style of handwriting it might have been from around that period (that is, during or shortly after the First World War). I got the image from the Long Long Trail website. You should read the article about the Royal Garrison Artillery, on that website (link in post 8) for more details about how and where the siege batteries were deployed.
In order to be included in the Electoral Register which was compiled in 1918, a serviceman would have had to complete a form which would then be sent to his local registration officer. This was organised by the military authorities, following the provisions of the 1918 Representation of the People Act which extended the franchise to all men over 21 (apart from those who were mentally unfit and Peers). The Act also allowed the vote to all men over the age of 19 who were still serving at the time of the election.
The Electoral Register did not provide the location of the absentee voters, just their unit.
The war diaries are held by the National Archives in the series WO 95. For example here is a link to the diary for 301 Siege Battery for the period March 1917 - February 1918 which you can download for free once you have registered with TNA. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/0ab68ec11e3f49a9980473d1a56b9014
Don't expect to see your grandfather mentioned in the diary.
The medal card in post 8 on page one indicates that Fred was only awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal - jokingly known as Squeak and Wilfred. Because he was too young, he didn't go to France before 31 December 1915 so he wasn't eligible for the 1914-15 Star, which was referred to as Pip.
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Thanks all for at least adding to what little I had and suggesting some reading matter
I did, many years ago, approach the Imeprial War Museum for help, but nothing came of it
sft456
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Frederick Mark Taylor is in the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists for 47 Diseworth Street, Leicester (same address as in the 1921 census). S/359733 Army Service Corps.
They have him down as a Private but the medal roll entry lists him as A/WO CL 11 Frank Mark Taylor - an Acting Warrant Officer Class II
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F M Taylor's mention in despatches, gazetted 18 May 1920:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31908/supplement/5707
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F M Taylor's mention in despatches, gazetted 18 May 1920:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31908/supplement/5707
Thank you for finding this, I thought "Menrtioned in Despatches" meant he had done something courageous rather than just mentioned as a fact in a record
My late father was b at 47 Diseworth St
A/WO CL 11 Frank Mark Taylor (presumably Frederick M T) - an Acting Warrant Officer Class II - I assume the first bit means a Warrant Office Class II - was this rank above a Serjeant (perusing the ranks of the British Atmy on the National Army Museum website)
I wonder why he was not demobbed until 1920. Perhaps the stations both he & Fred were in gave them a better chance of survival!
I have had a look thru' the details of 301 Siege Battery on the National Archives - very detailed, will require some time to take in
According to the history of the 27th Div, by 1916 they had moved to Salonika where it remained for the war's duration; which Battalion he was in to join this Div is unknown
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FMT's Mention in Despatches was "on the occasion of the evacuation of the Caucasus"
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31908/supplement/5707
This was the operation in early 1920 to rescue White Russian refugees from Novorossiisk.
FMT was attached to the HQ of 27th Division per his Gazette entry.
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I thought "Menrtioned in Despatches" meant he had done something courageous rather than just mentioned as a fact in a record
To be mentioned in despatches a soldier or officer usually had to do something really useful to help the operation to achieve its aim. It didn't have to involve heroism or courage. In fact at the end of a campaign it was frequently the case that the MIDs were somewhat akin to an Oscar acceptance speech, in which the great and the good are thanked.
A/WO CL 11 Frank Mark Taylor (presumably Frederick M T) - an Acting Warrant Officer Class II - I assume the first bit means a Warrant Office Class II - was this rank above a Serjeant (perusing the ranks of the British Atmy on the National Army Museum website)
Warrant Officer class II is two ranks above Sergeant. The intervening rank is staff sergeant - often referred to in the Infantry as Colour Sergeant. In fact his Gazette entry lists him as "Taylor, S/359733 Cpl. (A./S./Q.M.S.) F. M., H.Q., 27th Div." which means that his substantive rank was Corporal but he had the acting rank of Staff Quartermaster Sergeant.
I wonder why he was not demobbed until 1920. Perhaps the stations both he & Fred were in gave them a better chance of survival!
The demobilisation process took a long time, and as Shaun mentions 27th Div went on to carry out occupation duties in the Caucasus after hostilities in North West Europe had ended. Frederick would certainly have been somewhat safer in a Divisional Headquarteres some distance behind any fighting, but the siege batteries were considerably closer to the front line, and were often subjected to counter-battery fire from the Germans. They suffered many casualties as a result. Unlike the Infantry in the trenches, the Gunners tended to remain in action for long periods.
According to the history of the 27th Div, by 1916 they had moved to Salonika where it remained for the war's duration; which Battalion he was in to join this Div is unknown
As mentioned above, he was not in a battalion; he was on the Headquarters staff as part of the Army Service Corps. The S/ at the beginning of his number indicates that he was in the Supply branch of the Army Service Corps.
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Thanks for your replies
I thought "Menrtioned in Despatches" meant he had done something courageous rather than just mentioned as a fact in a record
To be mentioned in despatches a soldier or officer usually had to do something really useful to help the operation to achieve its aim. It didn't have to involve heroism or courage. In fact at the end of a campaign it was frequently the case that the MIDs were somewhat akin to an Oscar acceptance speech, in which the great and the good are thanked.
I see very little "thanks to F M Taylor for his ervices......." in the record dated 1920 above!!!!!! so for me reading that I would be none the wiser
He was conscripted into the Army presumably after May 1916 (as a married man). Beween then & 1918 (ref the Absent Voter List) nothing appears to be known about his time in the Service. My late father knew almost nothing about his father's war service, but he did mention to me Salonika, Quarter Master Serjeant and mentioned in dispatches - 2 of those have been found to be true, so........