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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Mmelz on Monday 16 December 24 04:59 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Recently I decided to research my Dads biological father, Alexander Brown. All I have is an image of his headstone and a little but of info that my Dad was aware of through the couple of times he met his Dad. I have hit brick wall after brick wall, coming up empty. Any help would be hugely appreciated.
The following info is what I know so far
Alexander Cyril Brown born in Warnambool (supposedly) on 20th August 1930.
Parents are mother Christina May Yench (b. Nov. 1910 Wagga wagga)
Father unknown?
However Christina became pregnant out of wedlock, her friend had a son the same age and so they married on order to legitimise the child
Alexander Claude Brown (b. 1911 Warnambool)
They married in May 1930, prior to the pregnancy Christina claims to have worked for a Robert Whitehead of Korringal Station in Hawkesdale Victoria. She divorced in 1934, remarried in 1938 and again in 1949. Died 1971.
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The full statement from Christina Brown on her divorce petition from Alex. Brown is available from the Public Office Victoria www.prov.vic.gov.au and it confirms Alex. Cyril Brown dob in Warrnambool 1930 but she states Alex. Brown was the father.
It should be free to download and provides many of the answers you are seeking.
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Alexander Claude Shipley BROWN born 16 April 1911
Father - Alexander Leslie BROWN. 1863-1919
Mother- Isabel May KERMOND. 1888- 1952
Alexander C S Brown divorced Christina Yench in 1934.
He and Christina had 2 sons.
- Alexander Cyril Brown born Aug 1930, after the marriage in May 1930.
- John Douglas Brown born Feb 1932, was adopted by the Cundy family of Heywood.
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Information given by Christina in the divorce papers certainly tells a different story as to how they met etc.
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His father’s burial Warrnambool in 1919
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/140459904/alexander-leslie-
Family has been well researched and there are 52 trees on Ancestry.
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Thankyou everyone that's replied! I actually just finished reading all 47 pages of Christina's divorce records. And yes, I am now aware Grandad had a brother whom was adopted. I'm finding quite alot of info on the Brown family, just not anything on granddad himself, back story is that my Nana had an affair with Alexander Cyril. Along came my Dad as a result, however they didn't meet till my Dad was 27 yrs old. And only spent a few occasions together before he passed in 2001.
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I'm finding quite alot of info on the Brown family, just not anything on granddad himself.
What information are you hoping to find?
Surely you know who he married and the names of his children?
After the divorce, Christina May and Alexander Claude went on to other marriages, and to have other children. It is not surprising that there was little contact between the families.
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Ancestry has many public trees with photos and comments about your grandfather’s life.
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This item suggests the possibility that Alexander Cyril spent his early years with his mother and stepfather in NSW
The item is about the death of Christina’s second husband.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/101432467?searchTerm=%22alex%20%20%20mancy%22
Sue
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I'm finding quite alot of info on the Brown family, just not anything on granddad himself.
What information are you hoping to find?
Surely you know who he married and the names of his children?
After the divorce, Christina May and Alexander Claude went on to other marriages, and to have other children. It is not surprising that there was little contact between the families.
Hello.
Unfortunately my Dad only seen his father a few times. Each time he was more interested in hearing all about Dad and us kids. Very little was mentioned about granddads family.
I know his wife's first name was Dorothy. She had 4 sons already. Only have their first names. I've no idea where he lived, where he worked. Literally nothing. Granddad has 1 surviving sister, Unfortunately she was far too young to remember much about him. She was born when he was n his late teen years. So they weren't close. I also am trying to find out if Alexander Claude Brown is definitely my Grandads father, as I've been told by a member of the family that he isn't. Apart from my Dad, there was 1 daughter Pauline, whom passed away. I'm not sure if granddad had other children,.
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If you don’t believe Christina May’s sworn statement about the father of her son, DNA is the only way to be certain of your grandfather’s biological father.
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It's not that I don't believe her sworn statement. I've been given conflicting information, I do understand only way to know is via DNA testing, I'm awaiting for a test kit to arrive. So hoping to have the answers soon. Thankyou
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I'm finding quite alot of info on the Brown family, just not anything on granddad himself, back story is that my Nana had an affair with Alexander Cyril. Along came my Dad as a result, however they didn't meet till my Dad was 27 yrs old. And only spent a few occasions together before he passed in 2001.
I am finding it difficult to follow some aspects of your thread information.
It would be helpful if you would use the proper names of the people involved, NOT Granddad, Nana and so on. You may know who you mean, but we do not always.
Also please verify those who you know to be deceased.
Rootschat policy does not permit the disccussion of those still living
Alexander Cyril Brown had two half sisters from Christina's second marriage. Their names can be seen in the death notice I linked in my previous post and which I hope you have seen. One child was born about 1944.Have you known them?
Sue
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This item suggests the possibility that Alexander Cyril spent his early years with his mother and stepfather in NSW
The item is about the death of Christina’s second husband.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/101432467?searchTerm=%22alex%20%20%20mancy%22
Sue
Thankyou.
This is helpful.
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My apologies, I will try to explain to the best of my ability. What I know of my biological family so far. Dorothy Cox (dec) had a son with Alexander Cyril Brown (dec.) Alexander was not around, and therefore I don't know much about him or his family. I'm simply interested in learning who I am, my family history and so forth. Alexander was born in 1930 to Christina May Yench (dec.) And Alexander Claude Shiply Brown (dec.) A brother was born in 1932, and adopted by a family in Heywood. I know nothing else about the brother except the name he was given at birth. Christina later filed for divorce in 1934 Melbourne. I know Christina remarried twice before her passing in 1971. I know there was 1 daughter of Christina's Rhonda (dec.). And 1 other daughter I'm aware of but no, never met them or knew about any of them. And I'm also aware that Alex Claude remarried and had more children. This is information I'm just learning about. So No, I have never met anyone. Nor do I know whom Alexander Cyril was married to. I was also told that the Brown family never spoke of Christina Yench or her children.
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Where was your father born? Just to get an idea of where his father was living in order to try looking for him on electoral rolls.
Debra :D
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Alexander's brother John Douglas used the CUNDY surname, his adoptive parents were Herbert Henry and Norah.
Death
Registration number
15930 / 1992
Family name: CUNDY
Given name(s): John Douglas
Place of event: Collingwood, Australia
Mother's name: CUNDY, Nora
Mother's family name at birth: Unknown
Father's Name: CUNDY, John Douglas
He may not have known his parents' names.
Debra :D
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Alexander's brother John Douglas used the CUNDY surname, his adoptive parents were Herbert Henry and Norah.
Death
Registration number
15930 / 1992
Family name: CUNDY
Given name(s): John Douglas
Place of event: Collingwood, Australia
Mother's name: CUNDY, Nora
Mother's family name at birth: Unknown
Father's Name: CUNDY, John Douglas
He may not have known his parents' names.
Debra :D
Oh thankyou so much! I'd tried searching John Douglas under Brown, Yench and Cundy but was having no luck, so thankyou. I appreciate the help
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Hi.
Many thanks for clarifying the picture with correct names ;)
John Douglas CUNDY/BROWN may have spent some earlier years in SA. there is a sch enrolment at Norwood School for him with parent /guardian Nora CUNDY in 1941. He had previously been at Heywood. His birthdate is 12/3/1932
There was a death notice placed for John Douglas CUNDY
I am not able to access it, but there maybe someone who can
Ryerson Index
CUNDY John Douglas Other
19JUN1992
late of Collingwood, Vic
The Age (Melbourne) 16 SEP 1992
In 1954 he lived in Ararat and there were no others of his surname at the address. Smith St. He was a nurse.
He married in 1960, At present I cannot see a death for this woman but will PM to you.
She had been married before.
Sue
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Having found the birth of John Douglas Cundy's wife, I can now publish her namre as the 100year mark has passed.
Bertha Alfreda Lancaster
LANCASTER Bertha A
20261/1919
Father Alfred E
Mother Bertha M
KURRI KURRI
She first married underage with the consent of her father in NSW in 1939 to Henry Keith FRANKLIN.
He was aged 32 and born in Sydney.
Her parents were Alfred Edward, a greengrocer and Bertha Matilda
By 1953 this couple were in Caulfield Vic and the FRANKLIN marriage had deteriorated .
As said, she married again in 1960.
Sue
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So had you ever heard that Alexander Cyril BROWN was an electrician?
There is a man of that name on electoral rolls from 1972 in the Northern Territory.
A woman of the same surname shares his address.
The couple is in Gladstone QLD by 1980 where he is a driver.
Probate was granted in the estate of a woman of the name last June with her death in QLD and, although I am pretty sure it is the wife/partner , I am working on confirming ( not merely a person of the same name ).
Any hints you can give will help.
Here is some ABN information about the couple's business
https://abr.business.gov.au/AbnHistory/View?id=96392067558
The R stands for Rosemary.
Sue
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So had you ever heard that Alexander Cyril BROWN was an electrician?
There is a man of that name on electoral rolls from 1972 in the Northern Territory.
A woman of the same surname shares his address.
The couple is in Gladstone QLD by 1980 where he is a driver.
Probate was granted in the estate of a woman of the name last June with her death in QLD and, although I am pretty sure it is the wife/partner , I am working on confirming ( not merely a person of the same name ).
Any hints you can give will help.
Here is some ABN information about the couple's business
https://abr.business.gov.au/AbnHistory/View?id=96392067558
The R stands for Rosemary.
Sue
As far as I know Alexander Cyril remained in and around Victoria & NSW. He did however own a company, but I've no information about it. The info you posted in regards to John D. Is amazing! Thankyou. I have attempted to search school records for both, but I'm new to all this and wasn't really sure how to go about it. Again, your amazing!! Thankyou
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Alexander Cyril worked with horses in his early years, I have a newspaper picture but no accompanying article, also Alexander. C is buried at the lawn cemetery in HAY. N.S.W. the headstone does mention a wife by first name and her sons, I know nothing about them though, so I don't wish to state the names here. Happy to post the newspaper image here if it helps
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Thanks for the extra information.
The couple I was looking at are not your man.
Sue
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I can see the headstone.
Sue
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I can see the headstone.
Sue
As you can see the headstone states names, but I don't have any other info unfortunately, I know getting to know them at the time was not wanted. If that makes sense. Thankyou Sue
Kindly
Mel
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Extra bit of info, my great great grandfather was Alexander Leslie Brown, manager of Shiply Stud Warnambool and Licensee of the Caledonia hotel warrnambool which is where e died in 1919.
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My apologies, I will try to explain to the best of my ability. What I know of my biological family so far. Dorothy Cox (dec) had a son with Alexander Cyril Brown (dec.)
Just out of interest, where was Dorothy COX living at the time of this relationship and subsequent birth?
Have you got the Birth certificate? orinvestigated making application for it?
Sue
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Just wondering if the OP has a small but private tree on Ancestry? If so could it be made public for a time?
I’ve been following this thread but unable to connect via my PC to the internet. Typing on my iPhone is not my favourite past time!!!!
So there were two partners of Alexander Cyril both named Dorothy?
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Hi Cando.
Yes. That is what I understand.
Mel will perhaps clarify. ;D
Sue
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My apologies, I will try to explain to the best of my ability. What I know of my biological family so far. Dorothy Cox (dec) had a son with Alexander Cyril Brown (dec.)
Just out of interest, where was Dorothy COX living at the time of this relationship and subsequent birth?
Have you got the Birth certificate? orinvestigated making application for it?
Sue
Dorothy lived in Hay, N.S.W. No I actually hasn't thought to do that.
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Just wondering if the OP has a small but private tree on Ancestry? If so could it be made public for a time?
I’ve been following this thread but unable to connect via my PC to the internet. Typing on my iPhone is not my favourite past time!!!!
So there were two partners of Alexander Cyril both named Dorothy?
Hello.
Yes I do have a tree on ancestry, also on my heritage. I will get onto it shortly. And yes 2 Dorothy's
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Just wondering if the OP has a small but private tree on Ancestry? If so could it be made public for a time?
I’ve been following this thread but unable to connect via my PC to the internet. Typing on my iPhone is not my favourite past time!!!!
So there were two partners of Alexander Cyril both named Dorothy?
Hello,
I've just changed my ancestry tree to public. It's Cox, Brown, Till, Carter Wales tree
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There are a number of stories with pics about the droving trip to Melbourne in 1954.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22fred%20till%22&l-decade=195&l-year=1954
Debra :D
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There are a number of stories with pics about the droving trip to Melbourne in 1954.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22fred%20till%22&l-decade=195&l-year=1954
Debra :D
This is an awesome find! Thanks
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Hi Mel,
Just to summarise ;)
So before he met Ms COX, Alexander Cyril was already married to Dorothy who had several children from a previous marriage (see headstone where he is their stepfather)
He met Ms COX and there was a birth in HAY.
Your father.
Alex was aware of and acknowledged this boy when he was 27 visited him from time to time.
Presumably Ms COX raised the boy while Alexander Cyril had more children with his wife.
You have not met any of Alexander's other children.
Do I have this right?
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/250899195/dorothy-olive-cox
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A online tree mentions Christina May Yench/Yensch gave birth to a daughter Ellen in 1928. The daughter is deceased.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/157634679/ellen-downey
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Alexander Cyril’s wife’s given names were Dorothy Ellen May. Source electoral roll in 1980.
Marriage index in VIC only extends to 1973 so it is possible they married between that year and 1980.
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They are together in 1972 still at Whittlesea, she is Dorothea and he is just Alexander. This marriage for her?
Registration number
6674 / 1943
HOSKING, Phillips Edwd
TRODD, Dorothea Ellen May
Debra :D
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Hi Mel,
Just to summarise ;)
So before he met Ms COX, Alexander Cyril was already married to Dorothy who had several children from a previous marriage (see headstone where he is their stepfather)
He met Ms COX and there was a birth in HAY.
Your father.
Alex was aware of and acknowledged this boy when he was 27 visited him from time to time.
Presumably Ms COX raised the boy while Alexander Cyril had more children with his wife.
You have not met any of Alexander's other children.
Do I have this right?
Hello,
It's somewhat right, however i don't know for certain if Alexander. C was married first or after. I do know Alexander had 1 other biological child that I'm aware of, a daughter, Pauline whom passed away, I don't know anything at all except her married name was possibly Taylor or Tyler. Dorothy Cox was married and had 5 children with her husband, she lived in Hay her entire life. Dorothy it seems had an affair, and chose to use her married name on the birth certificate of child number 6, instead of Brown.
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A online tree mentions Christina May Yench/Yensch gave birth to a daughter Ellen in 1928. The daughter is deceased.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/157634679/ellen-downey
From what I can gather yes, there was a daughter, however I'm not entirely sure on the year of birth, either that or her Dad is listed incorrectly. Downey Ellen's married name. Christina married Geoffrey Fraser in 1949. He was born in 1923, can't possibly be the father to Ellen. It's a little confusing
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Ellen Yensch was born in 1928. Father unknown on the trees I have seen. Mother Christina May Yensch.
Married as Yensch in 1947 according to online Vic BDM.
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They are together in 1972 still at Whittlesea, she is Dorothea and he is just Alexander. This marriage for her?
Registration number
6674 / 1943
HOSKING, Phillips Edwd
TRODD, Dorothea Ellen May
Debra :D
Following on from this :)
Dorothy May and her husband Phillip Edward HOSKING were together in Thomastown Victoria in 1963 .
By 1977 Phillip is with Hilda Jane HOSKING and they remain together to 1980, She died in 2013 aged 93 and was previously married according to an obituary clipping . She is interred at Fawkner.
22767 / 1982
HOSKING Edward Phillip
At Heidelberg,
Mother Mabel Ellen LONSDALE
Father Edward Arthur
I wonder whether Dorothy May and Alexander C BROWN actually married
There is a cremation in May 1992 at Springvale
HOSKING, Dorothy May, and a notice on Ryerson which I cannot fully locate .
Just a possibility.
Sue
ADDING.
If the above woman were the right death, then she could not have been responsible for the 2021 memorial to Alexander Cyril ::)
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Wife of Allan Edmond Hosking according to Vic BDM.
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Just wondering if Jimmy on Dorothy Olive COX’s headstone and James on Alexander Cyril BROWN’s are the one and same person?
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Wife of Allan Edmond Hosking according to Vic BDM.
So not the right death.
Sue
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Just wondering if Jimmy on Dorothy Olive COX’s headstone and James on Alexander Cyril BROWN’s are the one and same person?
Yes, same person. (DAD)
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Christina Yench having given birth to a daughter Ellen Yensch in 1928 I a little confusing. I've seen many family tree entry's listing Ellen as her daughter but also her sister? There is no mention of her daughter in the divorce records. I'm wondering if Christina had her adopted, possibly to her Mother Ellen Norman Yench
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Mel,
Is the surname HOSKING ringing any bells please?
Per the contributions above.
Sue
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Ellen YENCH née NORMAN has a divorce file on PROV dated 1934. I’ll leave you to read and digest.
Ellen stated she had eleven children and named them but no Ellen born 1928.
I doubt she raised Ellen born Warrnambool 1928.
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Mel,
Is the surname HOSKING ringing any bells please?
Per the contributions above.
Sue
No, I don't know any Hosking's, thankyou
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Ellen YENCH née NORMAN has a divorce file on PROV dated 1934. I’ll leave you to read and digest.
Ellen stated she had eleven children and named them but no Ellen born 1928.
I doubt she raised Ellen born Warrnambool 1928.
hmm, interesting. It seems Ellen is a mystery! There is no mention of her in any record I've come across for Christina May, not in her divorce, nor a birth record.
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There is some further confirmation of the wife/partner of Alex C BROWN being Dorothea Ellen May HOSKING nee (TRODD) in the Electoral Roll.
DELETED
I have been unable to find either a birth date or death record for this woman and in the interests of protecting her privacy if she is still living, I have deleted the information of this post.
I will use the Private message system Mel to send it to you for your records.
Sue
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Thankyou Sue, I will look into it further. Any bit of info helps.