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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: leigh morgan on Sunday 15 December 24 19:45 GMT (UK)

Title: Denis Carty
Post by: leigh morgan on Sunday 15 December 24 19:45 GMT (UK)
Hi All

Just looking for Denis (Dionisius) Carty (McCarthy) on marriage certificate in 1870 Tipperary Ireland states he is 35 years old and Mary (Maria) McGrath is 23 years old.  States his father is Denis and Mary's father is John.  Have found children Denis (5 September 1871) Clarhanee Tipperary, Mary (21 November 1873) Grean Limerick, Micheal (22 January 1875) Cullen and Lattin died 17 January 1954 Lattin, Patrick (2 June 1879) Lattin Tipperary, John (30 March 1881) Lattin, John (28 July 1885) Lattin married Josephine Hackett/Foley in Pennsylavina USA in 1914.  Cannot find a death for Denis or Mary or Mary, Patrick, John 1881.  Hoping for any information would be truly appreciated.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:02 GMT (UK)
This marriage, in 1870

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11373/8176063.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11373/8176063.pdf)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:06 GMT (UK)
Link for information on Lattin, Co. Tipperary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattin,_County_Tipperary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattin,_County_Tipperary)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:15 GMT (UK)
Birth registration of son Denis Carty, 1871
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03284/2203736.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03284/2203736.pdf)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:19 GMT (UK)
Here is a likely candidate
Denis McCarty, age 70, widower, laborer, died 7-1-1907, address Coologue, Grean RD, Co. Limerick, Tipperary SRD.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05538/4552902.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05538/4552902.pdf)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:31 GMT (UK)
Official name for the townland is Coologe
https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/coonagh/grean/grean/coologe/ (https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/coonagh/grean/grean/coologe/)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:33 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately, the 1907 candidate is not the right fellow.
Here is his family in 1901 - wife Katherine.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001019497/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001019497/)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:38 GMT (UK)
OP - when did your John Carty emigrate to the US? Did he travel with family? Do immigration forms specify what address he left?
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 21:50 GMT (UK)
Birth registration for John, 1885 - surname McCarthy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02624/1968429.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02624/1968429.pdf)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Sunday 15 December 24 22:05 GMT (UK)

Mary Carthy birth - 21 November 1873, Newtown.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03172/2163648.pdf


Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: shanreagh on Sunday 15 December 24 22:25 GMT (UK)
Birth registration for John, 1885 - surname McCarthy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02624/1968429.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02624/1968429.pdf)

And Mary has the surname of Carthy, here.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03172/2163648.pdf

Snap KG

OP it is good to note the variations of the names for future searching. You have mentioned McCarthy  and Carty but Mary was registered as Carthy (sort of a 'bob each way' as they say  ;)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 22:37 GMT (UK)

OP it is good to note the variations of the names for future searching. You have mentioned McCarthy  and Carty but Mary was registered as Carthy (sort of a 'bob each way' as they say  ;)

Precisely. Which is why, for example, I searched for Cart* in the 1901 census website. The IrishGenealogy.ie (http://IrishGenealogy.ie) website does a reasonable job, though not perfect, of accommodating these variations even if you enter just Carty.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: shanreagh on Sunday 15 December 24 22:43 GMT (UK)
Denis Carty, the father of Denis Carty, who was married in 1870 is shown as 'deceased' on the marriage certificate. This leaves as small window for notification  in the Civil registration system. There is a death of a Denis Carthy aged 50 years in 1867 in Tipperary. Certificate needs to be obtained ie not available online yet. 

I'd keep this link in your back pocket OP until we have finished sleuthing.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjb/
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Sunday 15 December 24 22:49 GMT (UK)
Denis Carty, the father of Denis Carty, who was married in 1870 is shown as 'deceased' on the marriage certificate. This leaves as small window for notification  in the Civil registration system. There is a death of a Denis Carthy aged 50 years in 1867 in Tipperary. Certificate needs to be obtained ie not available online yet. 

I'd keep this link in your back pocket OP until we have finished sleuthing.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tjb/

Above died in Coolbaurs, Tipperary, Tipperary.
And a Denis McCarthy, age 55, in Clonmel, also 1867. 

Some further details, such as exact date of death, available in transcripts on FamilySearch. Sometimes these transcripts give other useful details such as the name of the informant, and relationship, but not in these two cases.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: shanreagh on Monday 16 December 24 01:25 GMT (UK)
Patrick was born on 2 June 1879. 

There is a Patrick McCarthy  born that date showing in the 1915 census for the 7th District 1st ward of Jersey City. He is a labourer, naturalised and has been in the country for 20 years. 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89QP-G6MN?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQV9Q-KFKV&action=view&cc=2061544
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 02:34 GMT (UK)
Hi All

Micheal (22 January 1875) Cullen and Lattin died 17 January 1954 Lattin,

Here is the death for Michael McCarthy, 1954, age 77, married. Retired pensioner.
Could be OP's Michael, born 1875, but would need further proof. Name is insufficient.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1954/04454/4166032.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1954/04454/4166032.pdf)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 03:01 GMT (UK)
This may be Michael in Thurles in 1911 census
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828967/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828967/)

But unsure - son Daniel rather than Denis
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 03:24 GMT (UK)
Birth registration of Johanna Carty in Thurles in 1899, daughter of Michael Carthy and Bridget Carty.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02028/1777753.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02028/1777753.pdf)

This establishes his wife's surname
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 03:33 GMT (UK)
Strange - I can't locate a marriage for Michael and Bridget Carty.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: shanreagh on Monday 16 December 24 06:46 GMT (UK)
This may be Michael in Thurles in 1911 census
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828967/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828967/)

But unsure - son Daniel rather than Denis

Here is Bridget, Daniel and Johanna in 1901.  Bridget is the wife of a soldier. Staying with Bridget's sister who is also a soldier's wife.

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Caher/Kelly_s_Lane/1708228/

Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 06:51 GMT (UK)

Here is Bridget, Daniel and Johanna in 1901.  Bridget is the wife of a soldier. Staying with Bridget's sister who is also a soldier's wife.

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Caher/Kelly_s_Lane/1708228/

But when Johanna was born in 1899, they were living in Thurles, and Michael was a laborer. Though I guess he could have had a fit of "patriotism".
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 07:21 GMT (UK)

Here is Bridget, Daniel and Johanna in 1901.  Bridget is the wife of a soldier. Staying with Bridget's sister who is also a soldier's wife.

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Caher/Kelly_s_Lane/1708228/

Here is the marriage of Johanna Carty to Daniel Brien in 1893.
What looks to be the marriage of Bridget Carty is further down the same page,  except it is to a Michael BRIEN, brother of Daniel. 

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10608/5865022.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10608/5865022.pdf)

This is making my head sore.  But I am starting to doubt that Michael in Thurles is the correct chap.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: shanreagh on Monday 16 December 24 07:26 GMT (UK)
I have my doubts, as you did that it was the correct Michael but wanted to show how they appeared later.

I have found a Dinis, a son to a Michael and Bridget here

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QYK7-HG6Z

This Michael says he is 40, rather than 36 or 37.   and in  Aghnameadle T/L which a is away a bit from  Lattin etc.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: leigh morgan on Monday 16 December 24 07:39 GMT (UK)
Thank you everyone for your help thank you for your time

Many thanks

Leigh
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: shanreagh on Monday 16 December 24 07:46 GMT (UK)
We haven't finished yet......'we're still going round the traps' as they say.

Does any of what we have found so far ring any bells?
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: leigh morgan on Monday 16 December 24 09:49 GMT (UK)
Just going through all this to see if anything fits

This is John McCarthy in the Massachusetts, US arriving Passenger and Crew List 1820-1963

John McCarthy - Irish - Divorced - DOB - abt 1886 - Tipperary - Departure Place - Queenstown Ireland
Last Residence Place - Emly Ireland - Final Destination Place - Cambridge Massachusetts - Residence Place - USA - Arrival Date - 7 May 1914 - Arrival Place - Boston, Massachusetts - Complexion - Dark - Eye Color - Dark - Hair Color - Dark - Height - 5 feet 8 inches - Money - $14 - Ship - Franconia - Siblings - Michel McCarthy - Denis McFarlane - Friend - Denis McCarthy - Person in the Old Country Name - Michel McCarthy - Person in Old Country Residence Place - Lattin Emly - Person in Old Country Relationship - Brother - Person in US Name - Denis McFarlane - Person in US Relationship - Brother

Many thanks
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 15:48 GMT (UK)
Just going through all this to see if anything fits

This is John McCarthy in the Massachusetts, US arriving Passenger and Crew List 1820-1963

John McCarthy - Irish - Divorced

Divorced? Not possible. No divorce in Ireland in 1914!
[Absent an Act of Parliament, so functionally impossible].
And brother Denis McFarlane??

OP - Are you relying on a transcript, or have you checked the original?
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 15:58 GMT (UK)
Based on the 1914 US immigration record, I checked the 1901 & 1911 census records for any Cartys in the Lattin townlands.

No sign of John or Michael, but Patrick does appear in both.

in 1901, age 21, farm servant, on his own
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Lattin/Lattin_North/1718335/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Lattin/Lattin_North/1718335/)

In 1911, age 30, agricultural laborer, with wife and family
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Lattin/Lattin_North/831098/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Lattin/Lattin_North/831098/)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 16:05 GMT (UK)
If I expand the search to Lattin DED (from Lattin townlands), then I also pick up
Michael Carty in 1901, unmarried groom.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Lattin/Ballynadruckilly/1718308/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Lattin/Ballynadruckilly/1718308/)

And Pat Carty, 20, unmarried groom.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Lattin/Lisduff/1718340/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Lattin/Lisduff/1718340/)
Separate person, or possibly a double count of the Patrick in Lattin townland?

No one extra of interest in 1911.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 16:23 GMT (UK)

In 1911, age 30, agricultural laborer, with wife and family
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Lattin/Lattin_North/831098/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Lattin/Lattin_North/831098/)

I can't find a matching marriage for this couple.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 16:59 GMT (UK)
If we take the statement of John in 1914 that his last residence place in Ireland was Emly, then there is a possibility for him in the 1911 census - surname mistranscribed as McCorthy.
Also birthplace misunderstood as Cork. Looking at the original, I think Tipperary was intended.

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Emly/Emly_Town/831015/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Emly/Emly_Town/831015/)

John McCarthy, age 26, general servant, unmarried.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 17:05 GMT (UK)
And a possibility for John in 1901 census, also Emly.
Age 15, unmarried, agricultural laborer, born Tipperary.

https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Emly/Emly/1718244/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Emly/Emly/1718244/)
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 18:51 GMT (UK)
This may be Michael in Thurles in 1911 census
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828967/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Thurles_Urban/Thurles_Urban_District/828967/)

But unsure - son Daniel rather than Denis

Given the unmarried Michael Carty in Lattin DED in 1901, I think it is now pretty clear that the above Michael is not the right chap.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: leigh morgan on Monday 16 December 24 20:42 GMT (UK)
Thank you for that vital information about divorce that is why I cannot find one.  Only seen transcripts and I think it is a misprint of Denis McFarlane should be Denis McCarthy would you know where I could look for an original?

Thanking you
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Monday 16 December 24 20:58 GMT (UK)
[Boston passenger lists[  would you know where I could look for an original?

Thanking you

Pretty certain that it will be in Ancestry collections [pay]. Should also be on FamilySearch [free], but I always find their records difficult to navigate. Where did you find the transcript in the first place - does it have a link to the original?
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 17 December 24 00:06 GMT (UK)
Just going through all this to see if anything fits

This is John McCarthy in the Massachusetts, US arriving Passenger and Crew List 1820-1963

John McCarthy - Irish - Divorced - DOB - abt 1886 - Tipperary - Departure Place - Queenstown Ireland
Last Residence Place - Emly Ireland - Final Destination Place - Cambridge Massachusetts - Residence Place - USA - Arrival Date - 7 May 1914 - Arrival Place - Boston, Massachusetts - Complexion - Dark - Eye Color - Dark - Hair Color - Dark - Height - 5 feet 8 inches - Money - $14 - Ship - Franconia - Siblings - Michel McCarthy - Denis McFarlane - Friend - Denis McCarthy - Person in the Old Country Name - Michel McCarthy - Person in Old Country Residence Place - Lattin Emly - Person in Old Country Relationship - Brother - Person in US Name - Denis McFarlane - Person in US Relationship - Brother

Many thanks

Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYWH-HS4?view=index&action=view&cc=1923995
Line 19 than move on to the next image and again line 19.
Single not divorced.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Tuesday 17 December 24 02:03 GMT (UK)


Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYWH-HS4?view=index&action=view&cc=1923995
Line 19 than move on to the next image and again line 19.
Single not divorced.

Great that you could find this. Looks like the transcription was off on several items:
Single, not divorced.
Had $50, not $14
Relative in US was brother Denis McCarthy, 446 Windsor St, Cambridge [MA]
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: leigh morgan on Tuesday 17 December 24 10:10 GMT (UK)
Thank you great find

Leigh
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: Wexflyer on Tuesday 17 December 24 15:07 GMT (UK)
Thank you great find

Leigh

How about the brother, Denis McCarthy, in Cambridge? Do you have the equivalent US immigration record for him? Wondering who it lists as contact in Ireland - might indicate whether parents dead or alive at that point.
Title: Re: Denis Carty
Post by: leigh morgan on Tuesday 17 December 24 19:37 GMT (UK)
Looking now many thanks

Leigh