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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: erinkrodgers on Wednesday 11 December 24 01:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi there! Would anyone be willing to help me find my family? My 2nd great grandfather, John Ryan, moved from Cashel Tippery Ireland to Everton Liverpool with his parents and siblings around 1856. I know all about him, but I cannot figure out what happened to his mother Catherine Murray or sisters Ellen and Catherine. His sister Anna came to the United States and died here, as did John. His father Michael Ryan, a blacksmith, died at Islington Gardens in November 1864. His brother James, married to Jane Mellor, died in Liverpool at 12 Back Boundary Road in Oct 1934.
I have a copy of the 1861 census showing all of them living at 4 Watmaugh Street, I just can't figure out how to attach it here.
I am so grateful for any help.
Erin Rodgers
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HI
Presumably you are looking for a family with the surname RYAN.
Is that correct.
Or is it MURRAY?
What was your great great grandfather's name
Sue
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Hi there! My 3rd great grandfather was Michael Ryan (1818 to 1864) and his wife was Catherine Murray Ryan (1821 to ?). Yes, I am looking for the Ryans. Sorry for any confusion.
HI
Presumably you are looking for a family with the surname RYAN.
Is that correct.
Or is it MURRAY?
What was your great great grandfather's name
Sue
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My 2nd great grandfather was Michael and Catherine's son, John Ryan (1844-1926)
HI
Presumably you are looking for a family with the surname RYAN.
Is that correct.
Or is it MURRAY?
What was your great great grandfather's name
Sue
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Hello erinkrodgers, welcome to RootsChat
Please just use the REPLY button. There is no point to reposting information already read. It takes up a lot of unnecessary space and can lead to confusion.
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Erin where and when was the marriage of James RYAN to Jane MELLOR?
Have you this certificate?
Who were the witnesses?
James was young when his father died. (born 1858 according to the 1861 census) He would be dependent on his mother and possibly remained with her for some years. Tracing him thoroughly may help find mother
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James Edward RYAN married in 1878 Liverpool to Jane MELLOR (MILLOR)
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Are you sure you have the correct death for Michael Ryan? The death in 1864 Liverpool was for a 42 year old, yet in 1861 your Michael was 43.
BIRTH
RYAN, MICHAEL Mother - MURRAY
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 241
Death
RYAN, MICHAEL age 2
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 216
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1861 - Michael is a Blacksmith
Burial 1864 Anfield Cemetery (England and Scotland Cemetery Registers)
Michael Ryan, 42 yrs, Blacksmith of Islington Gardens
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Thank you all so much for the responses. Yes, that is the correct Michael. He was a blacksmith and he died at Islington Gardens (which I have been trying to find out what that was through historical society groups too.) His age has varied on a few different documents, but I have his baptismal certificate and he was born is August 1818.
While I have not found James Edward Ryan's baptismal record, Michael and Catherine Ryan had 2 other children, Michael and Richard, who were both baptized at St. Francis Xavier Church. The two children, Michael and Richard had passed before 1861, born in 1856 and 1858 respectively.
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One other thing, I found a James Ryan living at Toxeth Park Industrial School at the age of 13 (1871). I found another on the Electoral Registery in 1871 living at 20 Westmoreland Street, with a Catherine Ryan listed at 22 Westmoreland Street.
I was thinking that perhaps one of these could be him. If his mother Catherine Murray Ryan died shortly after her husband Michael Ryan, it might make sense that he could be at an orphanage or living next to his sister in some sort of workhouse?
James Ryan grew up to be a dock laborer and I am able to track him and his children through census, newspapers, obituaries and DNA. His mother Catherine Ryan and sisters Ellen and Catherine do not appear to show up anywhere near him as far as I can see (hence the reason I need help tracking them. :) )
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He was a blacksmith and he died at Islington Gardens (which I have been trying to find out what that was through historical society groups too.)
Islington Gardens is the name of a 'road' in the area of Birchfield Barracks, Liverpool. 1861 census reference RG9/2696 folio 99 page 14
ADDED Who was the informant on the death certificate, does it give an address for them
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Islington gardens was off Islington, which was off William Brown St.which was apparently Liverpool 3
oops sorry looks like there is more than one Islington Gardens!
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James Edward RYAN married in 1878 Liverpool to Jane MELLOR (MILLOR)
Marriage of James Edward Ryan and Jane Miller, St Anthony’s, 23rd December 1878
He is described as son of ‘Joannis’, (John) and address is 25 Wright Street
Jane Miller - address - 13 court, 1 house, Wright Street
A witness is Sarah Ryan, 23 Wright Street
This doesn’t seem to be the right James, although he may not have remembered his father’s name.
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Further to my previous post
1881 3599/7/8
23 Wright Street, Liverpool
Mark Ryan 40yrs
Catherine 37 yrs
With several children including Sarah, 22 yrs
Added
Sarah may have been a friend of Jane’s rather than a Ryan relative.
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Looks like I will have to start from scratch with James Ryan. It's so weird because I have DNA relatives that match his branch, with a number of unique last names including "Leatherbarrow" Oh well! I will be going back to the drawing board on him. I truly appreciate this information!
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OK, so I am going to list everyone out. I don't know what happened to Catherine, Ellen, Catherine and James.
Father- Michael Ryan- Born in Cashel Ireland 1818 died Liverpool Nov 3 1864
Mother- Catherine Murray Ryan- Born in Cashel Ireland in 1821
Children
John Ryan- Born March 1844 in Cashel Ireland, Died November 1926 Elizabeth NJ USA
Anna Ryan-Born March 1847 in Cashel Ire. Died April 1928 Newark NJ USA
Ellen Ryan- Born October 1849 in Cashel Ire
Catherine Ryan- Born May 1851 Cashel Ire
James Ryan- Born 1858 Liverpool England
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Michael and Catherine Ryan had 2 other children, Michael and Richard, who were both baptized at St. Francis Xavier Church. The two children, Michael and Richard had passed before 1861, born in 1856 and 1858 respectively.
There is no death for Richard, no birth registration.
James' birth reg (whether it's the "right" James for you or otherwise!)
RYAN, JAMES
Mother's Maiden Surname: MURRAY
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 181
Richard's baptism, 6 June 1858. Born 3 June 1858
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L93N-D9MW-6
James and Richard might be the same person? :-\
If you want James' birth date, you can get a digital image of the birth registration from the GRO for just £3
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In 1881 James RYAN is living with his wife Jane and infant daughter Elizabeth at 23 Wright Street.
He states born in Liverpool, Dock labourer.
RYAN, ELIZABETH JANE mms MELLOR
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in
OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 666
Sue
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Thank you! I do believe that Richard and James must be the same person. Richard was probably the baptismal name. Sue, thank for the information regarding their residence in 1881. You guys are super sleuths! I do believe I have the correct James/Richard in my tree, married to Jane Mellor. I deleted him and started from scratch. He does not match up with other spouses. I believe Michael Ryan sometimes went by John.
If anyone is able to find Mother Catherine Murray Ryan and her daughters Ellen and Catherine, I would be so grateful! I do believe Catherine Murray Ryan may have passed shortly after her husband Michael, but I cannot find any definitive documentation.
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In 1881 James RYAN is living with his wife Jane and infant daughter Elizabeth at 23 Wright Street.
He states born in Liverpool, Dock labourer.
RYAN, ELIZABETH JANE mms MELLOR
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in
OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 666
Sue
Sue,
May I just correct this please. It is a great find but the address is wrong.
1881 3599 /8/9
James and Jane are at 1 house, 13 Court which is the address that Jane gave on her marriage.
There are several people at that address including Mary J Ryan, 36 yrs, Hawker, b Birkenhead, Cheshire.
Too many Ryans.
Mark Ryan is at 23, Wright Street in 1881 as mentioned earlier.
Added
The baptism of Elizabeth in April 1879, has the Court address. There is only one Godparent, Maria O’Connor.
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There are baptisms for two other children to James and Jane.
Mary Jane, 1887
James Edward, 1889
Both with a Miller Godmother.
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Happy to be corrected so we have it right.
There was a marriage in Liverpool for a Catherine RYAN to James LOPDELL,
Same church as James was married. 1874
May be of interest
Sue
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Catherine Ryan of Vauxhall Road married Thomas Lopdell in 1870.
Her parents - John and Catherine Ryan and a witness Margaret Ryan.
1871 3761 /124/54
Catherine Lopdale , 23 yrs (abt 1848) b Liverpool.
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Yes. I saw the full record and the 1881 census which records her as a bit too old to be the right lass. :)
Sue
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I believe Michael Ryan sometimes went by John.
If anyone is able to find Mother Catherine Murray Ryan and her daughters Ellen and Catherine, I would be so grateful! I do believe Catherine Murray Ryan may have passed shortly after her husband Michael, but I cannot find any definitive documentation.
Do you have any records to show him as John?
The only Catholic burial, I can see, shortly after Michael’s is Catherine Ryan, 53 yrs (b abt 1812) in 1865 - address 9ct, Maghull Street.
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I believe Michael Ryan sometimes went by John.
If anyone is able to find Mother Catherine Murray Ryan and her daughters Ellen and Catherine, I would be so grateful! I do believe Catherine Murray Ryan may have passed shortly after her husband Michael, but I cannot find any definitive documentation.
Do you have any records to show him as John?
The only Catholic burial, I can see, shortly after Michael’s is Catherine Ryan, 53 yrs (b abt 1812) in 1865 - address 9ct, Maghull Street.
Hi there! I found that when they were in Ireland there was a John listed at his address in Cashel Tipperary, yet I cannot find any brother of his named John. His father was John and his son, my 2nd great grandfather was John. I am not sure if there were possible errors on the census or directories sometimes? I do know that one of my aunts said our Irish family would sometimes go by their middle name rather than their given name (I guess since they all had the same names ;D )
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Happy to be corrected so we have it right.
There was a marriage in Liverpool for a Catherine RYAN to James LOPDELL,
Same church as James was married. 1874
May be of interest
Sue
Thank you Sue! I am going to build out a test tree with this Catherine and see where it leads me.
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There are baptisms for two other children to James and Jane.
Mary Jane, 1887
James Edward, 1889
Both with a Miller Godmother.
I have been adding the godparents into the "comments" section of my ancestry trees. Thank you!
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Catherine Ryan who married Thomas Lopdell does not appear to be my Catherine unfortunately. That Catherine was born in Liverpool. Mine was born in Cashel Ireland. :(
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What documents show that she was born in Liverpool
There was a lot of prejudice against Irish people
Sometimes on censuses people lied about their birthplace or may not have
Known where they were born if parents died young so don't rule out this Catherine yet
Have you found common Irish ancestors to each other among your DNA matches ? RYAN is not an easy name to work with . Look at their wives surnames .
Good luck
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What documents show that she was born in Liverpool
There was a lot of prejudice against Irish people
Sometimes on censuses people lied about their birthplace or may not have
Known where they were born if parents died young so don't rule out this Catherine yet
Have you found common Irish ancestors to each other among your DNA matches ? RYAN is not an easy name to work with . Look at their wives surnames .
Good luck
Hi there! When i looked at census for Catherine Ryan Lopdell, it said she was born in Liverpool. I should probably take a second look, knowing that she might have just said that so as to not be discriminated against.
I have been able to locate DNA matches from descendants of James and Jane Ryan who have the surnames Leatherbarrow and Miley, and they are also in my tree. I am having difficulty figuring out James sisters, Ellen and Catherine, as well as his mother Catherine Murray Ryan. I only know their whereabouts in 1861, as they are all together on the census in Everton Liverpool.
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I found a Catherine Sweeney listed as James and Jane Ryan's son baptismal record as his godmother. Jane's side does not seem to have Catherine in their family at that time, so maybe this is my Catherine Ryan. John Joseph Ryan, James' son, was born in 1884. I am not yet finding a Catherine Sweeney living in the area at the time.