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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Resources & Offers => Topic started by: pastrelatives on Monday 09 December 24 19:48 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I would like further information about CAROLINE ELIZABETH SIMPSON (later Yates).
Who were her parents
Was she British
Where was she born
If I obtain an Australian marriage certificate will it state who her parents were or where she was born?
Below I have listed FACTS, followed by 'POSSIBLES' and then 'INCORRECT'
FACTS
BORN: c1861
MARRIED; Victoria, Australia 1889 Ref: Australia Marriage Index 6552
to: Francesco Milano Yates (born 3 October 1861, Lancashire, England, UK)
note: mispelled names on the index: Milane and Carreeline
Married name: CAROLINE ELIZABETH YATES
Caroline and Francesco had three children:
Sydney Horace Yates - born: 22 July 1891 Melbourne, Australia
Frank Yates - born: 25 January 1893 Sydney, Australia
Elizabeth Yates - born: 23 September 1896 Haslingden, Lancashire, England, UK
DIED: 8 December 1897 Haslingden, Lancashire, England, UK. aged 36
POSSIBLES
BORN: (Arkendale?) Yorkshire, England, UK c1861
Sailed to Australia with her family WHEN?
Came back from Australia between 1893 and 1896
INCORRECT
The Caroline Elizabeth Yates who died in 1900 in Redfern, Sydney, Australia is NOT the C E Yates I am looking for.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you
Frances
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Hi Frances,
It has taken a little while for helpers to notice your request!
Next time Australian Board a bit further down to...-Subject "New Topic" is the spot. :D
On a Victorian Marriage Certificate you will find a lot of information and it is often thoroughly worth the cost. Not all our states have the same level of detail.
Victoria
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
Bride's mothers name
The witnesses to the ceremony may be relatives so that adds another helpful layer and there are sometimes other useful bits to see too.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history
Scroll to the bottom of the page and see how to purchase.
Choose the $22 option.
Downloads for viewing immediately. Online payment ;D
Please let us know your discoveries and we might be able to help.
I see Francesco back in Lancashire as a widower with his children in 1901. Did he remarry?
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Glancing at your Ancestry tree I see you do not have details for the son Sydney Horace
Maybe you need them.
Sydney was back in NSW by 1914 where he married Florence Ada BENTLEY
YATES Sydney H
BENTLEY Florence A
At ASHFIELD
They are present on the NSW electoral Rolls together for a long time in various suburbs of Sydney.
It looks as if he transferred his upholstery skill from furniture to the automotive industry as a car trimmer.
He died in 1965
YATES Sydney Horace
12222/1965
Father Francesco Milano
Caroline Elizabeth
At CAMPSIE
Sue
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Hello Sparrett, thank you soooo much for the information you have given me. I shall be ordering the marriage certificate asap. Thank you also for the extra information about Sydney Horace. I'll be adding that information to my Ancestry Tree. I'm really excited to be finally finding out about Caroline E Simpson/Yates especially as so many people have the incorrect one listed as dying in Redfern, Australia. Yes, Francesco Milano Yates (my G grandfather) did re marry twice. He married Elizabeth Langstaff 1859-1899 and had a child named Maggie 1898-1900 with. He then married Isabel Howard 1866-?
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Hi
If you are descended from Francesco's marriage with Caroline, it will be a great thing to be able to move back a generation when you see her parent's names on the marriage certificate.
The information was given by the participating parties, so is likely to be accurate (as long as they were being truthful of course). :o
Be sure to get the less expensive download copy as it contains all the same details as the "real thing" and is fine for family history purposes.
If you feel like sharing the findings, we would be interested to know about her.
I agree, it is frustrating when trees are published with erroneous information and then copied all over the place.
Good for you working to get it right.
Sue
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I had a look in newspapers to see if there was any mention of the family in Australia, but couldn't find anything definitive.
For interest, I see you don't have a death date for the 3rd wife Isabel nee HOWARD. She died 14 Feb 1935 - probate notes her address as 5 College St Accrington, the same as Fransesco's in 1922. Probate to Thomas William HOWARD. "Isabella YATES" on FreeBmd: Mar qtr 1935 Haslingden (8e/189) aged 71.
Modified to add:
Welcome to RootsChat from me too! And I wholeheartedly agree with Sue's comments - good on you doing the research. :)
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Hi Maddys52, many thanks for the extra information you have provided re Isabel Howard/Yates. This will also be added to my Ancestry Tree. She and Francesco didn't have any children so I suppose that Thomas William Howard could have been a brother. Something I can look into at a later date. When Francesco died in 1922 he left Isabel the sum of £163 19s 5d. In today's money that would equate to £11,678.91. Quite a considerable amount.
It is very exciting to find out more about Caroline Elizabeth Simpson/Yates. I'll be ordering the marriage certificate today. Thanking you again
Frances
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Hello sparrett and maddy52
Thought you may like an update as I have now received a copy of the marriage certificate for Caroline Elizabeth Simpson to Francesco Milano Yates
You were correct about the amount of very useful information on the Victoria certificate.
It turns out she had been married and widowed by 1885 so her birth name was:-
Caroline Elizabeth BRYANT
Born: Bathurst, New South Wales
Marriage date: 26 Sept 1889 (this was to Francesco Milano YATES)
Where living at the time: William Street, Melbourne (they were both living there)
Marriage location: Moor Street, Fitzroy and according to the rights of the Free Church of England
Age when married: 28
Witness1: Sarah Muleen
Witness 2: I can't read
Father: Thomas Bryant (Butcher)
Mother: Kate Bryant nee Quinn or Mc Quinn - It isn't very clear whether it reads nee or Mc
Previously married to: SIMPSON
Widowed by: 1885
Children with SIMPSON shows as 1 living - in the column for those dead there is either a tick rather than a number or something like a letter L - perhaps it's meant to be a dash?
The child from her marriage to SIMPSON doesn't seem to have arrived in the UK
I will now try to find out about her parents marriage to find out where they originated from.
Thank you so much for your previous help
Regards
Frances
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That's great Frances.
Caroline BRYANT married Charles E SIMPSON - registered in Bathurst NSW in 1879 (2497/1879).
There are 3 births in NSW with parents Charles (Edward) and Caroline SIMPSON:
1880 Edith Louise (Parramatta) - died 1881 (Parramatta)
1882 Charles Edward (Parramatta)
1884 Edith G (Newtown) - died 1884 (Newtown)
Not sure about Charles' death - there are a few possibilities, but possibly this one:
Charles E SIMPSON died 1886 - registered at Parramatta (8398/1886), parents John and Elizabeth.
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Here is a death notice for Charles Edward SIMPSON who died 2 January 1886 aged 27 - however it doesn't mention a wife or family, only that he died at his father's residence.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13608327
There is this advertisement for a benefit for the widow of Charles E SIMPSON and infant son in Feb 1886, so I think it probably is the correct family.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111190024
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This looks like Caroline's birth in 1859:
Caroline E BRYANT registered at Bathurst (4723/1859), parents- Thomas and Catherine.
Another child born to the couple at Bathurst (prior to registration - so most likely a baptism record)
1854 Rachel BRYANT (4705/1854 V18544705 42B) - the code on the Index is "CW" - C of E, Abercrombie District, Bathurst.
1855 Rachel BRYANT (2358/1855 V18552358 72) code "LG" - Roman Catholic, Bathurst; Kelso; St Michael's, Co. Bathurst
Not sure why there are the 2 registrations - I can't see a death for a Rachel BRYANT, unless it has something to do with baptisms in different denominations - not sure. :-\
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I have to go out now so can't continue looking, however there are some mentions of Thomas BRYANT in BAthurst on trove, including this notice in 1852 - mentions he is from "Kilfore", Co Clare and a sister Bridget and has a relation Darby BRYANT from Lisheen.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62519297 (4th column, near the top)
Also an advertisment as a butcher in 1854:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62054608 (3rd column, middle)
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Looks like the witness you have mentioned could be a sister to Caroline
Marriage
John MULEEN
Sarah A BRYANT
3428/1885
At Waterloo, New South Wales.
Sue
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Just in confirmation of my above post.
The marriage certificate is viewable at
Sydney Anglican Parish Records.
John MULLEEN was born either Tasmania or Scotland (!!) and aged 26. A brickmaker of Nth Willoughby His father was James and mother Mary MANNNING
Sarah Ann BRYANT was born in Bathurst and aged 21 of Summer Hill Her father was Thomas BRYANT a butcher and mother Kate MACQUIRE.
Sue
ADDING
Rachel BRYANT whom Maddy has mentioned, married William PARKER in Bathurst in 1873 (#1829)
On the certificate of marriage between Sarah and John MULEEN, Rachel PARKER is a witness.
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A disturbing mention of Thomas and 11 year old Sarah Ann BRYANT in 1876:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252088740 (near the bottom of the column)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18804165 (last paragraph)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18806271 (in the middle) - acquitted
If this is the correct family, it seems his wife had died before 1876.
Possibly this death registered at Bathurst:
Catherine BRYANT (4988/1875) aged 43 years. No parent's names given on the index.
Not sure who the step-daughter mentioned is - "Caroline YOW", possibly meant to be YEO.
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I'm not sure - there are birth registrations in Bathurst for children of Thomas and Catherine BRYANT:
1854/5 Rachel
1859 Caroline)
Then there is a marriage of Thomas BRYANT to Celia/Cecilia MAGUIRE at Bathurst in 1860.
Thomas and Celia have children at Bathurst:
1862 (unnamed male)
1864 Sarah A
1868 John H (died 1871)
1871 (unnamed) - possibly John Henry - died 1936
So are Catherine and Celia the same person, and they didn't marry until 1860 (interesting to see what the marriage certificate says). Or are they 2 different wives - though I can't see a death for "Catherine" and Sarah Ann says her mother's name is "Kate" and Caroline's mother's maiden name of Quinn or MacQuinn could conceivably be MAGUIRE :-\
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One Possibility -- May or may not be the same woman.
Celia MAGUIRE arrived in NSW as an assisted immigrant in 1850. per vessel Panama. Single.
She was b. County Mayo and aged 18. Could not R&W and was a house servant .
Her parents were Michael and Sarah both dead.
No relations in the Colony.
Her sister Jane aged 14 travelled with her and could read and write. Also a house servant.
** It would be good to see a clip of the bits of Caroline's certificate that you cannot read, Frances.
The names which are indecipherable. ;D
As a matter of interest. The other witness on the NSW marriage of Sarah Ann BRYANT to MULEEN, was William J . SOMERVILLE.
Rachel who was witness 1 and mentioned, married him in 1885.
930/1885
SOMERVILLE William j
PARKER Rachel
At SYDNEY
I have not quite found what happened to PARKER.
I think there were more chn.
Sue
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I think Thomas BRYANT died in Forbes.
1892. Reg 5203
BRYANT Thomas
F. George
M. Rachel
At Forbes
He is buried at Forbes Cemetery
Death 20 October 1892
Unmarked grave.
He had been in Forbes from at least 1886 and in that year attempted to contact two of his daughters through newspaper advertisement.
Sue
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That's a good find Sue. :D
There is this findagrave for Thomas BRYANT buried 20 October 1892.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/230341023
It says aged 44 so born c1848, probably a bit young to be having a child in 1859, but the age at burial could be inaccurate. :-\
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Yes, I saw that age at death but was persuaded by his mother's name and the advertisement.
No other identifiable relatives spotted.
Sue
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Hello Sue and maddy52,
Many thanks once again for the amazing amount of information you have forwarded to me.
Regards
Frances