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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: dippitybix on Saturday 07 December 24 11:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm looking for some help in regards to John James McDonald born Hoddom 15 Nov 1867 and his wife Jemima McDonald MS McDonald also, born 4 November 1865 Ecclefechan. Jemima's birth certificate has her name as "Jamsie" for some reason.
According to the birth certificate of 2 of their children I have, they married in Lockerbie 1892 29th November. However I cannot find any trace of this marriage - perhaps they didn't officially marry as I believe that they closely related.
I've worked out they had the following children but believe they had more than what I've determined correct so far.
The middle names names Graham, Carson, McKay and Muir all relate to the family.
William Graham McDonald Born 1893 St Rollox
Margaret Carson McDonald Born 1896-1899 St Rollox
Agnes McDonald Born 1896 St Rollox
Henry Muir McDonald Born 1901 St Rollox
Elizabeth McKay McDonald Born 1902 St Rollox
Margaret Carson McDonald Born 1904-1965
it's quite complicated but I believe Jemima is the daughter of John James McDonald's half brother, James McDonald born ABT 1838 Annan to William McDonald and and Jane/Jean Jardine. John James McDonald was born to William and his 2nd wife Margaret Graham.
John James, Jemima and their children are on the
1901 census here:
Their lodger John Inman is also a relative.
1901 census
31, Gourlay Street, Glasgow RD St Rollox
John James McDonald Head 32 Electrician b Ecclefechan Dumfriesshire
Jemima McDonald wife 33 b Ecclefechan, Dumfrisshire
William G McDonald son 7 b Glasgow
Agnes McDonald daughter 2 b Glasgow
John Inman Lodger 21 b Dumfriesshire
Ideally I'm looking for John James McDonald & Jemima's death and any other info.
Many thanks
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This this could be the death of Jemima/Jamsie
MCDONALD
JAMSIE
74
F
1940
644 / 11 / 307
Possilpark
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Order certificate
Edit: just purchased the certificate and it's correct
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You say that 2 of the birth certificates give as the date of marriage. What do the other birth certificates say?
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On Scotlands people there is a marriage in Dryfesdale in 1882 for John McDonald to Jemima Jamieson
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1911 census Springburn (Lanark) ref 644/6 5/ 15
• John James MacDONALD 43
• Jemima MacDONALD 45
• William Graham MacDONALD 17
• Agnes MacDONALD 12
• Elizabeth McKay MacDONALD 8
• Margaret Carson MacDONALD 6
• Effie Johnston MacDONALD 2
• John James MacDONALD 0
1921 census Possilpark (Lanark) ref 644/7 24/ 7 to 644/7 24/ 8
• John J MacDONALD 53
• Jemima MacDONALD 54
• William G MacDONALD 27
• Agnes MacDONALD 22
• Eliza M. MacDONALD 19
• Margaret C MacDONALD 16
• Effie J MacDONALD 13
• John J MacDONALD 10
Baby - Henry Muir McDonald died 1901 (Maryhill)
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Jemima's birth certificate has her name as "Jamsie" for some reason.
I suppose she was named "Jamsie" after her father James, who had just recently died.
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Edit: just purchased the certificate and it's correct
Good.
Does it confirm that her parents were William McD and J*an* Jardine?
And does it say whether she was married to, or the widow of, John James McD?
Have you checked the two deaths on SP of John James M*cDonald born 1867 plus or minus one year? I think the one in Milton (Glasgow) is more likely to be yours because https://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp says that the one who died in Burghead on 6 October 1932 was born 1 May 1867 and married in Elgin on 10 December 1887 to Margaret Ann Ogilvie.
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Edit: just purchased the certificate and it's correct
Good.
Does it confirm that her parents were William McD and J*an* Jardine?
And does it say whether she was married to, or the widow of, John James McD?
Have you checked the two deaths on SP of John James M*cDonald born 1867 plus or minus one year? I think the one in Milton (Glasgow) is more likely to be yours because https://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp says that the one who died in Burghead on 6 October 1932 was born 1 May 1867 and married in Elgin on 10 December 1887 to Margaret Ann Ogilvie.
Apologies for the late reply, we've had no electricity since the storm on Saturday!
Her death certificate confirms her parents were James McDonald and Margaret McDonald nee Carson. It also states she was married to John James McDonald - electrician. Their son John James McDonald Jr was present at her death.
I purchased the Milton death record for JJMC - electrician retired widow of Jemima McDonald. Adding more confusion into the mix it states his father was William McDonald - Horse Dealer (I have William's profession as a weaver, then later on he became a Carter) and Agnes McDonald nee dunlop. His son JJMC Jr also present at his death.
I believe his parents were actually William, correct, but his mother was Margaret McDonald nee Graham I don't know who Agnes Dunlop is I have not come across this name before.
If it is correct and he married his half brother's daughter I suppose it wouldn't have been talked about. Perhaps their children never knew? ???
William McDonald John James McDonald and James McDonald's father was married/partnered 3 times.
1st Wife Jane/Jean Jardine they had the following children:
Elizabeth McDonald 1828-1856
John McDonald 1831-1865
Jane McDonald 1833-1906
Mary McDonald 1835-1862
James McDonald 1838- 1865 Father of Jamsie/Jemima
Jane/Jean Jardine must have died - don't know the date.
He then married Margaret Graham when he was 59 years old 2 Dec 1863.
They had the following children - confirmed by birth certificates from SP
Agnes McDonald 1866-1889
John James McDonald 1867-1962 Married to Jamsie/Jemima
Margaret Graham died 1870.
He then married Elizabeth McKay 8 Nov 1870 and died (most probably) in Carlisle at the Fusehill Workhouse in 1873.
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Yes, I think you are correct. William’s mother was Margaret Graham – and of course the Graham name gets passed down and used for middle names in offspring.
Mistakes are commonly made by the informant on deaths, because they didn’t know, or got confused with some other family elder they heard stories about.
I also agree that John James and Jemima were related. She was his half- niece.
I believe this would have been a "prohibited marriage" - and explains why you have found no record. It may also explain why they moved away from their home town, and went to Glasgow where they would not be known.
Hope everything is safe and sound after the storm.
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Hmmm.
Took a while but I finally found an authoritative statement of the forbidden degrees of marriage (of all places, on the web site of His Majesty's Revenue and Customs! - https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/tax-credits-technical-manual/tctm09380 )
List of prohibited relationships for marriage and civil partnerships
Throughout the United Kingdom (UK), Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man, the law prohibits certain blood relatives, step relatives and relatives-in-law from getting married or registering as civil partners. Unless they fall within the exception below a person cannot marry or become civil partners with their:
child
adoptive or former adoptive child
child of former spouse or civil partner
parent
adoptive or former adoptive parent
former spouse or civil partner of parent
parent’s sibling
sibling or sibling’s child
grandparent
former spouse or civil partner of grandparent
grandchild
grandchild of former spouse or civil partner
In the above list “sibling” means a brother, sister, half-brother or half-sister.
Under these rules, John James and Jamsie would clearly not be allowed to marry (assuming that Agnes Dunlop really is a red herring of course).
What isn't absolutely clear (to me, at least) is whether this identical list of prohibitions applied in the 1890s.