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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: FrancisGrn on Sunday 01 December 24 13:16 GMT (UK)
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Dear All,
I'm looking to establish what happened to two sibling relatives, William Hartley (1844-) and Elizabeth Crick Hartley (1838-). They were both born in London, the children of William Hartley (1806-1866) and Sarah Ann Crick (1807-1866). They emigrated to Queensland aboard the HMS Samarang in 1867, along with their sister Susan Wilson Antill (1839-1891) whom I am able to trace and know settled in Brisbane. Could someone have a look to see if they can find any marriage and death records for the two unaccounted for siblings; I would like to see if they had families of their own but haven't been able to find anything myself.
Best wishes,
Francis
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There is a marriage for a Elizabeth Crick Hartley
Marriage date 28 September 1867
Queensland
Spouse Joseph Webster
Rosie
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William Hartley (1806-1866) and Sarah Ann Crick (1807-1866).
Have the deaths for the parents been confirmed as both 1866?
Just going by the marriage announcement for Elizabeth Crick Hartley it sounds like her father is still alive in 1867.
The Brisbane Courier
Mon 30 Sep 1867
MARRIAGE.
WEBSTER—HARTLEY.—By special license, at St. John's Church, Brisbane, Queensland, Captain Joseph Webster, Yacht Courier, to Elizabeth C. Hartley, third daughter of Wm. Hartley Esq., of Royal Hospital, Chelsea. No cards. Home and Colonial papers please copy.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1287625
ALSO the mother Sarah Ann is on the passenger list with her kids aged 56 in 1867
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Susan Antill died in NSW in 1891
ANTILL SUSAN
10756/1891
father - WILLIAM
mother - SARAH A
district - NEWTOWN
Possible death for mother Sarah also in NSW
HARTLEY SARAH A
3811/1883
Father - WILLIAM
DIED NEWTOWN
NEWTOWN
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Probate record for father William Hartley died 14 December 1866
Address 6,Moore Place Fulham
William and Sarah was at that address 1861 Census
Rosie
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There’s this marriage for William Hartley image available on Anc*y
24 Nov 1865 All Saints, Fulham
William Hartley age 21, riding master
Father William Hartley, clerk
Mary Ann Madder age 26
father Samuel, tailor
one witness Susan Wilson Hartley
Added
Sarah Ann Hartley age 56, Elizabeth age 28, William age 22 Mary Ann age 30
Arrival 17 Aug 1867 Queensland, Australia Ship Samarang
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There is a death for a Mary A Hartley in Waterloo Sydney in 1875.
Father's first name is Samuel. No more information on the index - You would need to see the certificate to know if it is right.
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I have not checked any of this as yet but posting it anyway.
I found a funeral notice for Sarah Ann. Took me ages due to surname error in the papers.
SMH Fri 21 Dec 1883
THE FRIENDS of Mr. W. HANTLEY, of Woolloomooloo, are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of his late beloved MOTHER, Sarah Ann ; to move from her late residence, Hordern-street, Newtown, THIS (Friday) MORNING, at half-past 8 o'clock for the Necropolis. W. H. WOOD and SON.
Undertakers, Darling-street, Balmain, and 807, George-street.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28373439
Checked Rookwood cemetery and found her burial
Location
Plot: Presbyterian 6A_Zone A/#/2426
Full Name
Sarah Ann Hartley
Date of Birth Unknown
Age Unknown
Date of Death Unknown
Buried Date 21 Dec 1883
There are 2 others buried with her.
William Hartley
Date of Birth Unknown
Age Unknown
Date of Death Unknown
Buried Date 10 Jul 1880
Charlotte M. Hartley
Date of Birth Unknown
Age 4 months
Date of Death Unknown
Buried Date 7 Oct 1882
Death index
HARTLEY WILLIAM
1180/1880
mother CHARLOTTE
SYDNEY
HARTLEY CHARLOTTE M E
2057/1882
CHARLOTTE
SYDNEY
---------------------------------------------------
Births - no father noted
HARTLEY WILLIAM
1947/1880
CHARLOTTE
SYDNEY
HARTLEY CHARLOTTE M E
2334/1882
CHARLOTTE
SYDNEY
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SMH Mon 27 May 1907
HARTLEY -In loving memory of my dear mother Charlotte Hartley, who died May 26, 1902; also my
dear father, William Hartley, who died May 29, 1906. Both gone, but never to be forgotten. Inserted bv their loving daughter, Lily, and grandson, Edward Morris.
A few other names mentioned in the memorial notices.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14860379
HARTLEY WILLIAM
5006/1906
mother - SARAH
GLEBE
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Elizabeth Crick Hartley /Webster seems to have vanished ???
Several trees has a second marriage for her husband Joseph Webster
1875 Victoria Australia to Elizabeth Bruce Latta
But nothing on Elizabeth Crick Hartley
Rosie
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Wonderful work guys, thanks so much! That is definitely my man William Hartley. I've tracked the 'Lily Morris' mentioned in the article to be Lilian Juanita Hartley, who is fairly well documented. Still can't find anything on Elizabeth Crick Webster. I assume she must have died 1867-75, but no paper trail as of yet
FG
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Still can't find anything on Elizabeth Crick Webster. I assume she must have died 1867-75, but no paper trail as of yet
Sarah A death certificate IF filled out correctly should state all her children and if they are deceased it usually states that. Could be worth a try and see if anything is noted for Elizabeth C.
HARTLEY SARAH A
3811/1883
Father - WILLIAM
DIED NEWTOWN
NEWTOWN
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Still can't find anything on Elizabeth Crick Webster. I assume she must have died 1867-75, but no paper trail as of yet
Sarah A death certificate IF filled out correctly should state all her children and if they are deceased it usually states that. Could be worth a try and see if anything is noted for Elizabeth C.
HARTLEY SARAH A
3811/1883
Father - WILLIAM
DIED NEWTOWN
NEWTOWN
Think that would be the best thing to do
Rosie
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Will do this. Thanks again for the great work!
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Hi Francis.
I would like to mention that the marriage of Elizabeth HARTLEY to Joseph WEBSTER was extremely prompt after the arrival of the HARTLEY family in Australia. From what I can see, it was a matter of a few weeks.
It is therefore likely that it was arranged from/in England in advance and under the arrangement, took place immediately after they arrived in QLD. Probably Joseph came in advance.
I note after that date and the associated public announcements about it, there is a gap in sightings of Joseph WEBSTER until he turns up in Victoria in the mid 1870's and then has a married life and children with Elizabeth Bruce LATTA until his drowning death in 1906.
It is possible the Webster/Hartley couple left the country during that missing period and something happened to Elizabeth.
The WEBSTER/LATTA marriage certificate would tell a good deal about the man. $22 download upon electronic payment.
VIC :Marriage
LATTA Elizabeth Bruce
WEBSTER Joseph
748 / 1875
The HARTLEY clan seem to have all moved to NSW rom Brisbane within a year or two of their Australia arrival.
This includes the ANTILLs, John Gage ANTILL of St Andrew St signed a petition in Balmain in 1869.
Sue
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from Sparrett
'I note after that date and the associated public announcements about it, there is a gap in sightings of Joseph WEBSTER until he turns up in Victoria in the mid 1870's and then has a married life and children with Elizabeth Bruce LATTA until his drowning death in 1906.'
I noticed that the marriage announcment Hartley/Webster noted that he was a 'yacht courier'. If this is the same occupation as today these were sailors who moved yachts by sailing them (for other people) from summer moorings to winter hard or from place to place say in Australia if the yacht was sold or even across the world. if Elizabeth went with him she may have died in a place other than Australia or place other than NSW or Queensland in Australia.
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Yes, I have been thinking along those lines.
However the odd thing is that (if she died) there is no death notice for her in Australian papers. Not that I can see anyway.
The marriage was announced in may papers and over a few days, so one has the impression that it was much approved of by the family. You would think if there was a youthful death, wherever it took place, there would have been a notice placed by her siblings in Australia.
Anyhow, there might be clues in certifcates as mentioned.
Sue
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I can't find any births that appear to be from the Webster / Hartley marriage neither.
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I couldn't find any family either for Elizabeth and Joseph it's a possibility she did die elsewhere if they travelled a lot .But as Sue said you would have thought she would have been mentioned in Newspapers
Rosie
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No help just posting since i come across it.
Leader
Sat 27 Mar 1875
WEBSTER—LATTA - At the house of R. B. Lockhart (uncle to the bride), 21 St. Vincent-place south, Albert Park, Melbourne, on the 3rd March, by the Rev. D. S. M'Eachran, Captain J. Webster, late of the barque Birchgrove, to Miss E. B. Latta, eldest daughter of Alexander Latta, Esq., Ballinakill, near Ferns, county Wexford, Ireland.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197934547
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That is possibly a quite clever wording to describe the bridegroom's origins.
It is basically giving his origins as the last vessel he was on.
Do we get a hint of deception ;D
I wonder what the full certificate would give as marital status and his birthplace.
Sue
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I was hoping there might have been an obit for Joseph that would state his first marriage but nothing. Just articles on his death and his death is registered in NSW, there is a will / probate online in VIC archives. I had a quick read on the off chance it might have mentioned kids who may have been born from his first marriage but again nothing. I know it's not him we are looking for but most well post it as it could come in handy for someone else one day maybe.
Article about his death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12786587
Funeral notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14762830
Burial
https://rookwoodcemetery.discovereverafter.com/profile/26429942
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Here is some information about the barque 'Birchgrove'
https://www.environment.gov.au/shipwreck/public/wreck/wreck.do?key=6010
http://sunderlandships.com/view.php?a1PageSize=100&a1Order=Sorter_name&a1Dir=DESC&a1Page=86&ref=158036&vessel=BIRCH+GROVE
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST18781210.2.3.4?items_per_page=100&query=rignold&sort_by=byDA
On this latter, from 1878, the barque was in Bluff NZ bound for Malden island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malden_Island
Kiribati or part of the former Gilbert and Ellice Islands
It was the site of guano deposits
NB after the second marriage.
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Birchgrove was in the Cape (presumably Capetown) in 1872 reporting from the diamond fields
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WEST18720827.2.7?end_date=31-12-1878&items_per_page=100&query=barque+birchgrove&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1865.
I am sure back in the mists of time i searched a NZ Govt reference for a list of merchant marine staff...from the AJHR. Or a list of mariners anywhere? Does anyone know?
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AND finally got something ;) Tho not sure how to check if she infact died there or on the ship or she may not have died.
They married September so dates would fit.
The Queenslander
Sat 5 Oct 1867
CLEARANCES.
October I.—Courier, ketch, 34 tons, Captain Webster, for the South Sea Islands, in ballast. Passengers: Mrs. Webster, Messrs. B. Brubn and J. Pearson.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20315413
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Aha he wasn't a yacht courier but Master of the yacht 'Courier'
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Looks like the ketch Courier came from the South Sea islands to Brisbane on 3/9/1867
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1287069
I wonder if the Capt Webster and Elizabeth Hartley met somehow on the way out...ie a stop by HMS Samarang at the same time as the ketch Courier was in a port, or they met before the Samarang left for Australia.
The special licence could have been because there was no time for banns due to imminent departure of Capt Webster on the Courier in early October 1867.
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I'm not finding anything else that is of use. I'm assuming Elizabeth Crick died on the boat or on one of the islands?? Definitely no death notices that i can find.
Her mother's death certificate might state if she was deceased and or Joseph's second marriage cert. might state widower. Either one might give up something.
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OP
This suggestion from Sparrett could be the way forward. The marriage certicate should indicate if he was a widower or bachelor (!)
'The WEBSTER/LATTA marriage certificate would tell a good deal about the man. $22 download upon electronic payment.
VIC :Marriage
LATTA Elizabeth Bruce
WEBSTER Joseph
748 / 1875'