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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: SplanK on Saturday 30 November 24 21:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
A little help in finding a death record, please!
The person im looking for is Alma Blanche Kelly (nee Lukey/Luke) great-great grandmother to my wife.
Alma, born 1867 in Cornwall to parents Nicholas and Mary Ann Lukey (nee Cornish).
She married Patrick Kelly (b. Ireland ~1859) in 1890 in Newton in Makerfield, Warrington. Between them, they had 8 children.
John b1890
William b1893
James Robert b1894
Thomas b1897
Mary Ann b1899
Winifred b1901
Patrick b1904
Lily Elizabeth b1907
In 1902, Alma was charged and sentenced to 3 months hard labour for 'unlawfully wounding'
In 1911 census, Alma is documented as being a widow living in Earlestown
In 1921, 1 of her children, Lily, being under 15 is documented that her parents are "both dead" and is living with her uncle and aunt in Wigan.
Despite having a narrowed 10-year window of when to look, I have yet to find anything about her passing! Every search I've done seems to lead to 0 results, be it GRO, FreeBMD, CheshireBMD, Family Search, LancsOPC, probate, find a grave, billion graves, BNA.... Alma just seems to just vanish! I have considered that Alma may have re-married but again, I've not found a record that suggests this either!
I have also yet to find Patrick's death, however, the name Patrick Kelly is rather popular so I have hit a brick wall just through sheer numbers! I was hoping to find Alma, which may point me in the direction of a grave where he might also be buried..... maybe! Some Ancestry trees suggest he passed in 1908 in Bolton, however, I never been able to firm that up myself.
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It appears from a newspaper article in 1906 that Patrick kelly was dead. Hopefully that will narrow down a search for his death. The article states that Alma Blanche Kelly of suez street, Earlestown was charged with neglecting her children and suggests she was living off immoral earnings.
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Her husband was still alive in September 1902.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/2aa2444a-b36f-4b9f-a1c4-45f852068fdb
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Thanks for finding that article!!
That certainly helps and disproves the 1908 death of Patrick in Bolton some others had, as well as narrowing down his passing to between 1902 and 1906!
There are 2 death records of interest for Patrick then, 1902 aged 40, and 1903 aged 49 (with the latter being closer to his estimated DoB in 1891 and 1901 censuses). Will do some digging!
The BNA search is frustrating! Using keywords +alma +blanche +kelly and limiting the search to 1906 brings the article straight up, doing it without a date filter doesn't seem to return it, or at least within the first 5 pages!. Forcing it to find the exact wording "alma blanche kelly"- again, only the 1902 articles despite it clearly existing with the correct spelling.
Mind if I ask, given my frustrations, how you manage to locate it?
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Her husband was still alive in September 1902.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/2aa2444a-b36f-4b9f-a1c4-45f852068fdb
Thanks for the link :) I should have clocked that he was named in these articles
Thinking about it and the previously mentioned 2x death records of interest, the 1902 death record was in 'Jul-Aug-Sep', so it's highly likely that with him being named in the Oct-1902 newspaper article, it should mean the 1902 death record of interest can be removed from interest and I can focus on 1903!
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quick update... thanks to GRO making the death certs available as a download image, I have an answer for Patrick's death...
Patrick died 17th Aug 1903. The giveaway/evidence that it's him is that the informant was Alma, at address Hazel Grove, matching that of the newspaper article
One step closer at least (and I must get back to doing some work ;D ;D)
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There are 4 newspaper reports for 1906. I have found these on find my past and all are free to view. The first one is the Runcorn examiner 7/4/1906
Second is from the warrington examiner, again 7th April 1906.
Third is from St Helen's examiner 7th April 1906.
Fourth is from the Widnes examiner 7th April 1906.
I always use the advanced search. You should be able to view these at the BNA as well as at find my past.
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Here's a clip of the 1906 Runcorn Examiner report
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/2f161256-aec2-423c-abed-4aca2209c0e4
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Thanks
I did stumble across the free view on FindMyPast over lunch - quite a story it paints of Alma's situation! I will play around with the search function because something squiffy for me is happening here and it is likely im missing out on useful information!
Although one thing I have taken away from this after finding Patrick's death is that he could not have fathered Lily Elizabeth Kelly in 1907 (wife's great grandmother) which explains why there was no father listed on her birth certificate. It's plausible her son, Patrick Kelly in 1904 might be similar.
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There are WW1 army service/pension records for a William Kelley born Earlestown.
Could he be relevant?
Attested Army Service Corps at Warrington in 1914
Reg number 029239
Age 19 / 19 yrs 4 months
Occupation Driver
Next of kin, mother Alma Cross, 2 Hunsworth? Yard, Newton le Willows
There is this death
March 1920 Warrington 8c 198
Cross, Alma
Age 46
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Thanks :)
In 1911 Alma was living at 117 Crow Lane, (West) Earlestown.
I have not seen Hunsworth Yard before for any of the family, although given the news article from 1906 states that the NSPCC inspector had visited Alma at three different houses within a ~6 month window, anything is possible at this point!
I must have overlooked this in the past or not found a record, but I am missing a child from my tree who must have passed in infancy (1911 states 9 children total, 7 alive... I have 8 children in my tree)! There might be a clue there as given I still cant find a burial record for either Patrick or Alma, there maybe one for one or both dead children.
William is listed as living with her, 18 (so in 1914 would be ~21) and is documented as being a Coal Miner / Pony Driver. Will have to double-check on William as I may have only got his DOB year from a census rather than GRO. I will check on that record though as I only have records 1901 and 1911 for him and nothing else!
Whoever filled this 1911, also noted down all of the living children that were living elsewhere and as such crossed out. One thing I note is, that James Kelly, son documented as a soldier.
I can't find a marriage that immediately jumps out, however, it would not be the first time ive seen a sudden surname change to try and go into hiding.
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To be honest, I'm not sure if the name of that yard is right (or if I've got it right!)
There's a burial at Newton le Willows Cemetery, 22 August 1903
Patrick Kelly, age 49 years
Register number 1723
Also buried at that cemetery was Alma Cross, 8 March 1920.
Age 46 years
Register number 4749
http://crem.oltps.sthelens.gov.uk/
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Hunsworth? Yard
Possibly a misheard Unsworths Yard
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SplanK, are you wanting any details about James Kelly c1894
SS
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Possibly a misheard Unsworths Yard
Good call!
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SplanK, are you wanting any details about James Kelly c1894
SS
Looking at this record on my tree, I have the bases covered (BMD + FaG).... looks like he married Teresa Ann Longshaw in 1922..... but if you have found anything else than I would appreciate the pointers :)
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Ok.
SS
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To be honest, I'm not sure if the name of that yard is right (or if I've got it right!)
There's a burial at Newton le Willows Cemetery, 22 August 1903
Patrick Kelly, age 49 years
Register number 1723
Also buried at that cemetery was Alma Cross, 8 March 1920.
Age 46 years
Register number 4749
http://crem.oltps.sthelens.gov.uk/
aah - see I was looking at Warrington Burial index rather than anywhere else! Thanks!
That indeed looks like 'our' Patrick for sure - dates line up with his death cert and very interesting that that this Alma Cross has also appeared.
Only downside is that Alma B Lukey was born ~1866 making her around 54 in 1920 BUT worth digging into further as it would seem
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The burial record for Alma Cross - jury still out.
I noted that the record was twinned with a 2nd burial for a George cross who passed ~1 month later with a burial date of 16/04/1920....
the William Kelly WW1 pension record document also sparked an interest - in the grand scheme of things, not many people with Alma as the first name, and the chances of having a son with the same name and estimated DoB as the one I'm looking for, in roughly the right place......
When doing a search for a marriage, I could not find anything which immediately jumped out, although I did limit my search to between 1911 and 1920. I also note I could not immediately find a 1911 record for an Alma Cross... but I've seen name changes before without marriage so I didn't add too much weight to it.
I took a punt on ordering the death cert for Alma Cross in the hope the informant maybe of use/give a clue - unfortunately, it's inconclusive as it lists the informant as George Cross, husband.
Alma Cross passed 4-Mar-1920 at 84 Mercer Street, Newton, aged 46. Wife of George Cross, she is listed as being a Labourer at Calico Print Works. Cause of death Malignant disease of the liver, and the informant was George Cross (husband) who was present at death.
One thing that stood out here is the bit I have highlighted. It suggested Alma was working. Whilst liver disease is a tick 'in the right direction of what we know about her upbringing, working at a print works seems a bit of a stretch given all of the censuses I have found for her either lists Housekeeper, or nothing at all.....
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Hi
William Kelly again, this time in the Newton and Earlestown Guardian, 21 June 1918
From free ocr text (all I have)
Two missing Newton soldiers have written home to say that they are prisoners of war, viz.: Pte Wm. Kelly, of 84 Mercer Street, and...
There is also a story in the same newspaper, 28 August 1914
A fine was imposed on George Cross, of the Hand and Banner Yard, for not sending his seven-year old daughter to school....
Mentions his wife as well, but neither she nor the daughter were named as far as I could tell. I don't know how close Hand and Banner Yard was to Unsworths Yard, hopefully not far.
Could that seven year old have been your Lily Elizabeth? :-\ It's possible at least.
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Thanks - Just managed to get access to those articles in full... as you say not fully conclusive but the dots are 100% there
It's just joining them up with the 'smoking gun' evidence, or at least being able to prove the other way!
There is something itching my brain about the William Kelly/Alma pension notes and then sending a letter to an address listed on Alma's death cert!!! I note FindMyPast has WW1 PoW records, I did do a search last night which did some results of potential interest, however as I don't have a FindMyPast sub, I can't access the full details other than name and record type :( I might have to await a free weekend or just sub for a month to see if there is anything of interest there.
If I get time later, I might see if I can crawl through the 1911 and 1921 censuses for some of the addresses listed to see if any clues are hiding there.
Still looking for a marriage between a George Cross and an 'Alma' or 'Blanche'. The school attendance article may have helped narrow the range to look through, although I do have to keep in mind that the 7 year old and mother might be somebody else completely and it just be a coincidence!
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It's very possible that Alma just adopted George Cross's name without marrying him. I have ancestors who have done this. I found George in the 1911 census living with family. He is listed as single so I think you can rule out a case of bigamy! I have full subscription to find my past, please feel free to private message me if I can be of help.
Jo
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It's very possible that Alma just adopted George Cross's name without marrying him. I have ancestors who have done this. I found George in the 1911 census living with family. He is listed as single so I think you can rule out a case of bigamy! I have full subscription to find my past, please feel free to private message me if I can be of help.
Jo
PM sent :)
Would you mind sharing where he was living please in the 1911 record you have found? Been up to my eyeballs with work so not had a chance to take a look at this myself yet!
Edit: 84 Mercer Street in:
1911 census appears to be occupied by a Travers family
1921 census appears to be occupied by a Huges family.
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George Cross in 1911 is living at 3 Nelson Street, Earlestown. His year of birth is given as 1873. His occupation is Vulcan foundry labourer. He was born in East Butterwick, lincolnshire. Also present at the address are:
Household members (6 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Carlin Head Married Male 34 1877 Blast furnace man St Helens Lancashire
Mary Ann Carlin Wife Married Female 26 1885 Housewife Newton Le Willows Lancashire
Thomas Carlin Son - Male 4 1907 - Earlestown Lancashire
Elizabeth Carlin Daughter - Female 0 1911 - Earlestown Lancashire
Arthur Henry Faulkner Relative Single Male 21 1890 Sugar works labour Lincoln City of Lincolnshire
I would question whether George is really related to the Carlin family, they were all born locally however George and Arthur Faulkner were not.
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Thanks Jo! I think we may have glimped at that one last night but figured the DoB was 6 years out compared to DoB the death index give us, and we had nothing else to go on so left it.
Lookup up addresses and their proximity to one another from the various sources:
1871: Alma: Cornwall
1881: Alma: Mercers Row, Newton
1890: Alma: Gas Street (no reference as to exactly where, but marriage was registered in Warrington so I assume Newton still)
1891: Alma: Mount Tabor, Leigh
1901: Alma: 17 Vista Road, Newton
1902: Alma: Reportedly wounding neighbour Marie Kenny at Hazel-Grove, Newton
1903: Patrick Kelly: Death cert 17 Aug 1903 - 17 Hazel Grove, Newton
1906: Alma: Suez Street, Newton
1911: Alma: 117 Crow Lane, Newton
1914: Alma: Cross/William Kelly WW1 pension: Hunsworth/Unsworth Yard
1914: George Cross with 'mother and 7 year old': Hand and Banner Yard
1920: Alma Cross: 84 Mercer Street
1911 for Alma: 117 Crow Lane
Suggested death location 84 Mercer Street.
Mercer Street is off Crow Lane
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.0&lat=53.45788&lon=-2.62348&layers=168&b=ESRIWorld&o=100&marker=53.45788,-2.62348
Vista road and Hazel Grove:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.4&lat=53.45893&lon=-2.64490&layers=6&b=ESRIWorld&o=100&marker=53.45897,-2.64442
Seuz Street is a bit further away - although the absolute irony is Suez Street is off Alma Street ;D
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.6&lat=53.45103&lon=-2.64125&layers=168&b=ESRIWorld&o=100&marker=53.45103,-2.64059
The Hand and Banner Yard, I cant immediately find it on the map, however looking on BNA for the yard name returns quite a few results, but these caught my eye:
DEATH OF MRS. bAGNILL
... T. J. Gillespie, Sarah Jane Shaw, a married woman,living apart from her husband,was charged with being drunk in the Hand and Banner yard, High-st., Newton, atl2 20, on Spnday morning last. She was fined 2s. 6J. and costs. The evidence disclosed a shocking ...
Published: Saturday 02 July 1892
Newspaper: St. Helens Examiner
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 720 | Page: 5 | Tags: none
Sales by Auction. yae ypw folio° . WeetiP regy r S a° (Jai ' ut wh ics. R nd S,
... RENT, £3 16s. 6d. a THOSE SIX LEASEHOLD MESSU'Nos-•0 or DWELLING-HOCSES situate and being rt e „ A 2,3 , 4, 5 and 6 Hand and Banner Yard. High-14,7t, Newton-le-Willows, in the occupation of Messrs. etl, Howell, Singleton and others. c'ss Annual Rents £53 ...
Published: Saturday 12 March 1910
Newspaper: St. Helens Examiner
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 3171 | Page: 4, 5 | Tags: none
WATER CDMMITTEE,
... granted to (a) Mr Richard Jones, of 6, Bridge-street, Earlestown, for the use and occupation of premises situate at the Hand and Banner-yard, High-street, Newton-le-Willows ; (b) Mr George Wilde, of 52, Legh-street, Earlestown, for premises situate at the ...
Published: Friday 07 November 1902
Newspaper: St. Helens Examiner
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 1002 | Page: 5 | Tags: none
I think those samples above are enough to show that this Hand and Banner Yard is off High Street, which is right next to Mercer Street! Its the same with Unsworth Yard...
It happened 50 years ago
... following properties for human habitation until in the judgment of the council they were made fit: three cottages in Unsworth’s yard, off High Street, Newton; two cottages in Brown’s yard, off High Street; one cottage in Gee's yard, off High Street; one ...
Published: Friday 08 June 1962
Newspaper: Newton and Earlestown Guardian
County: Lancashire, England
Type: Article | Words: 177 | Page: 6 | Tags: none
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I missed this :(
Newton and Earlestown Guardian, 31 May 1918 (tidied up free text)
MISSING. PTE. W. KELLY. Mr. and Mrs. Kelly, of Mercer Street, Newton, have received word officially that their son, Pte. W. Kelly,of the 6th Connaught Rangers, has been posted as missing gince the 21st March last. Pte. Kelly, who was educated at the Catholic School, and is 22 years of age next month, has been in the Army since the outbreak of war, and has been, wounded three times. He formerly worked at the Collieries of Messrs Richd. Evans and Co (is this the end of it?)
So Mr and Mrs Kelly isn't right, or is it just a mistake?
Possible birth? This would make him the right age for the William who was in the ASC for a very short period in 1914. But would be 23, not 22, on his birthday in 1918!
KELLY, WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: LUKE
GRO Reference: 1895 S Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 198
Couple of records for William Kelly, 2610, of the Connaught Rangers / 6th Conn Rangers, in the free index to Prisoners of War on findmypast.
ADDED
Link to medal index card, which is free on ancestry (need to be registered)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1262/records/70992
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Yep, that his birth record I have attributed to William on my tree, son of Alma + Patrick.
The text in the article says "Mr and Mrs Kelly" - no W Kelly other than when referring to William?
However an oddity im looking at is that GRO has his birth registered in 1895, and a transcription of the PoW record shows a birth date of 1897. 1901 census suggests 1896 and 1911 suggests 1893! It's likely a mistake either in documentation or more than likely, simply not known - given the massive variation of DoB's we have seen for this family so far, im very much leaning the way of 'its about right!
I have also found who I think William might be in 1939, DoB the same given on the PoW notes (23rd July 1897 in 1939 vs 27th July 1897 in PoW), marriage to a Mary (possibly nee Higham), documented as working in a colliery but moved over to Yorkshire!
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I wouldn't worry about year of birth being a few years out, in my experience it's quite common. Quite often people didn't know for sure themselves! And it suited them to add or deduct a few years for work or other such reasons. I had one ancestor who knocked 20 years off when marrying a much younger woman :P
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The text in the article says "Mr and Mrs Kelly" - no W Kelly other than when referring to William
Yes, my mistake when originally typing it up.
Coverage of that newspaper available on BNA (and findmypast), and nothing for 1920 at the moment
https://britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/titles/newton-and-earlestown-guardian
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A quick Friday morning update on this! First, we want to thank everybody who has helped/contributed in any way to unpick Alma's story! I think we would have been perpetually stuck with this one given the potential unofficial surname change!
The crucial link which binds Alma to the Cross name is the WW1 pension records, but somewhat more importantly the PoW information for her son William, which gave a DoB of 23 Jul 1897 (officially, the year is wrong by 2 years, but given the variety of years we have been looking at ;D....)
This DoB in this PoW document perfectly ties to a 1939 record where we find a William Kelly of the same DoB with Margaret Gertrude Higham and a number of children, and tracing backwards located their marriage in 1919, Wigan.
However, the curveball is this marriage shows William as "William Joseph Kelly" - Pre marriage, there is no suggestion he ever had a middle name and when researching some 6 months ago, we originally discounted this pairing as the wrong William!
With this new information I needed access to this marriage certificate to see what was on it, but I remained on the fence about ordering, I generally only order paper certs where there is an almost certainty that it's the correct person.
I happened to be looking at Ancestry Thrulines for my wife's DNA and stumbled across a suggestion of a match that routed through Alma and then William Kelly - why we didn't explorer this earlier I don't know! The tree appeared to be good and detailed enough tree, so I started doing my due diligence to verify the information. A few things stuck out - IE very specific dates for BMD's. I decided to reach out to the creator of the tree and manager of the DNA record, explaining the position and the information found so far.
This morning, they sent me a number of certificates, including William and Mary's marriage (4th Aug 1919) which shows William as a coal hewer, and his father Patrick Kelly (deceased - coal hewer)
Bingo! A marriage certificate and a verified family path down to the DNA match via William Kelly confirms that the uncovered story of Alma post 1911 and that she at some point she became Alma Cross and partnered with George Cross!!
As for her daughter Lily Elizabeth, born 1907, she 100% won't be Patrick's, and I suspect that George Cross won't be her father either, although clearly had a hand in looking after her (although using the term loosely based on the news articles!). Speaking with my mother in law, she explained how the neglect article 'rang true' with Lily as she was always precious about making sure that no food was ever wasted and it was always known that the family line had a rough upbringing.
I am sure there might be a handful of new finds as we continue to dig and I will 100% share them here as appropriate. Chances are myself and my wife will take a trip down to Newton Cemetery in the coming months as its not too far away, to see if (and it's a big if!!) there is a headstone for Alma and George, as well to see if we can locate the communal resting place/marker of Patrick.
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Congratulations! I am so pleased this has come together for you. Yes, please keep us posted, I would love to know more :)
We rootchatters are a tenacious lot and never give up so feel free to post again if you need any further help.
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Further evidence!
Curiosity got the better of me, but I wanted to know who registered George Cross death.... I'm glad I did!
George Cross - Died 11th Apr 1920 at infirmary, Warrington.
Last address 84 Mercer Street, Newton, and he was a bricklayers labourer.
Died of Acute pulmonary pneumonia
Reported by P Kelly, stepson, 84 Mercer Street, Newton on the 12th Apr.
P Kelly, I will assume to be Patrick Kelly, b 1904
Patrick Kelly is found in 1921 with Lily Elizabeth, both living with their brother John, his wife and children at 26 Orchard Street, Wigan
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Bingo! I think that concludes what happened to Alma Kelly and you can safely say that she and Alma Cross are one and the same person :)
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Yes, I agree, that's excellent news.
Well done for getting George's death certificate, and for tracking - and pinning! - down Willliam Kelly.
Wishing you luck when you get to Newton cemetery, and do let us know how you get on.
John
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the Mrs and I had a free day yesterday so went on the hunt for Alma's burial location (its a 30 minute drive, and a chance to nip into ikea was too tempting ;D), along with 2 of her first husband Patrick (1854-1903) children (Patrick 1892-1894) and Thomas (1897-1897)
We didn't expect to find a marker, many people don't have them and knowing the family background there wasn't likely the money to pay for one.
In terms of her first husband and her children - we could not identify the areas at all! Im awaiting a response from the council to see if they can help identify the location and chances are we will nip in the future.
Alma and George, again unmarked, appear to be in a location with other unmarked stones.... Using the few marked graves as a reference, we identified the rough areas where they are located.
Documented on FaG
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/277124435/alma-cross