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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Oscar91 on Thursday 28 November 24 23:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking for more information about Grace O'Brien, wife of Canadian senator and businessman Michael John O'Brien (1851-1940). Grace was born on either 19 July 1885 or 1886. Her full maiden name appears to have been Grace Cecilia Robertson. She was born in Scotland (but died in Canada in 1995), but I'm not sure where exactly. Nor do I know who her parents were, but I'm hoping that there are only a limited amount of people born with that exact name in one of the two birth dates.
None of FamilySearch, Ancestry or FindMyPast seem to have her birth record, so I am a bit confused about where she could be. In the past, I have successfully found English birth record citations, but it seems that Scottish ones are more difficult.
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None of FamilySearch, Ancestry or FindMyPast seem to have her birth record, so I am a bit confused about where she could be. In the past, I have successfully found English birth record citations, but it seems that Scottish ones are more difficult.
Not so; in general they're actually more informative if you look in the right place, which is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, and they are available to view instantly online at modest cost.
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
Are you sure about her approximate year of birth, because if she was born in 1886 and died in 1995 she was 109 years old?
It appears that the marriage was in El Paso, Texas in 1925, and in the original document (available on FamilySearch) her name is Mrs Grace C Robertson. That suggests that Robertson was not her maiden surname. What is your source suggesting that it was?
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Welcome to Rootschat
Yes she was a grand age - according to her obituary
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-toronto-star/159672854/
More info
https://the110club.com/grace-o-brien-1885-1886-1995-of-uk-canada-t31611.html
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Good find, Heywood.
I suspect there had been a little bit of massaging of the truth. Maybe a middle name acquired in later life (not uncommon)?
I see that nephew George was said to be 16 and John 13 in the 1921 census, and that they immigrated in 1907. If so, John must have been a babe in arms, and he must have been born in 1907 if the information in the 1921 census has not been tweaked a little.
There's no record of a marriage in Scotland of a Mary Bean to a John Robertson. There is a marriage of a Mary Bain to a George Robertson in Aberdeenshire in 1869. Also a birth of plain John Robertson, mother's maiden surname Bain, in the same area in 1887, but there's no record of a John Robertson with middle name Fernie.
Quite a conundrum, altogether.
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Scotland Select Births and Baptisms has this - a relative?
John Fairnie Thompson Robertson
Birth: 18th October, 1857,Perth,Scotland
Father John Robertson
Mother Isabella Scott
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Thanks so much for your replies, everyone. That thread on 110 Club is actually mine (I'm an administrator on the forum for supercentenarians). I didn't get any help or feedback there, so I thought I'd ask people are well-versed with Scottish documents. From the looks of it, the case is more complicated than I had thought. If some of the biographical information is inaccurate, then I'm afraid we'll never find out the truth. My experience with Swedish birth registration index on Ancestry is that you can search by exact date of birth and get a list of every single individual of a certain name who was born on that date. I know that Grace is a very common first name, but is it at least possible to narrow down to the number of Graces who were born on 19 July 1885 or 1886? Again, thank you very much for helping out. British (super)centenarians are usually easily verifiable, even those who emigrated. As a matter of fact, British supercentenarian emigrants to Canada has played an important part in building up lists related to Canadian longevity since the 1970s.
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1911 Canada census for Grace Robertson gives immigration in 1907.
1921 Canada census Grace Robertson gives immigration in 1906, and the nephews George (b 1905) and John (born 1907) immigration in 1907.
Passenger List for Ionian arrival 28 July 1907 Canada
Grace Robertson, 21, single, born Scotland, domestic servant, destination Toronto
Passenger List for Ionian arrival 2 Aug 1908 Canada (4 people on same ticket)
Mrs Jessie Robertson 30 widow, born Scotland, domestic servant, destination Toronto (to brothers & sisters, mechanic? do..?)
George Robertson 3 child, born Scotland
John Robertson 8 month infant, born Scotland,
Mrs Mary Cooper, 58 , born Scotland, widow house keeper, destination Toronto (to live with sons who are clerks)
Mary Sullivan Cooper, age 58yrs & 8 months, widow, born Scotland,
Died 28 Dec 1908 York, Ontario Canada
Next of kin – John Robertson, rear 96 William Street
Burial 30 Dec Mount Pleasant Cemetery
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Jessie A. COOPER married a George ROBERTSON in 1902 St Clement (Dundee).
George McLean ROBERTSON (age 32) died in Errol in 1908
Scotland Birth 1905 St Mary
George McLean ROBERTSON (Mmn Cooper)
Scotland Birth 1907 Errol
John Fairny Tho.. ROBERTSON (Mmn – Cowper)
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Another possibility worth investigating?
SP index lists the birth of Grace Robertson Cooper in 1886 in St Clement (Dundee) 282/3/616
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A nice tidy bit of work Neale1961!
Following on from George McClean Robertson
Whose birth might be
ROBERTSON
GEORGE MCLEAN
MCLAREN
M
1875
363 / 22
Kilspindie
There is also an interesting marriage
MCLAREN
GRACE
ROBERTSON
JAMES
1871
644 / 8 / 182
Anderston
But OP will need to do the hard yards and buy some of those certs in the correct working back order. See Forfarian’s link in reply #1
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I looked at a Peter Robertson to Grace McLean marriage in 1861, but didn’t see a child named Grace.
So haven’t found the link yet, but we are getting closer :)
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Another possibility worth investigating?
SP index lists the birth of Grace Robertson Cooper in 1886 in St Clement (Dundee) 282/3/616
Yes, well worth considering. Her birth may have been registered like that, but she was known as Grace Cooper Robertson. Grace C. Robertson, …. And she decided to make the “C” stand for Cecilia, to hide an illegitimate birth. Speculation at the moment, but quite possible.
You would need to look at the birth certificate.
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Brilliant stuff! You've all been very busy while I've been asleep.
1881 Census in Dundee: John M Cowper, 49; wife Mary, 33, born Arbroath; daughter Eliza, 12; son Samuel, 5; daughter Jessie A, 3, father-in-law Samuel Sullivan, 59, born Ireland.
1891 Census in Dundee: Mary Cooper, 42, widow, born Forfar; Samuel, son, 17; Jessie, daughter, 13; John, son, 6; Grace, daughter 4; all born Dundee.
1901: Mary Cooper, 56, born Arbroath; daughter Jessie, 23; son John, 17; daughter Grace, 15; all born Dundee.
Births in Dundee, father Co*per, mother Sullivan
John 1870, died 1873
Mary 1872, died 1873
Samuel 1874
Jessie Alexander 1877
Alexander Speed 1881, died 1884
John Matthewson Cooper married Mary Sullivan in 1867 in Arbroath. John Matthewson Cooper died in Rhynd in 1882 aged 50. (Rhynd is a parish just south of Perth, between the River Tay and the River Earn.)
No death of a Mary Sullivan or Co*per indexed at Scotland's People, which is consistent with Mary having died in Canada.
So it looks as if John and Grace were both illegitimate, born after the death of their mother's husband. Grace's birth certificate will clarify this. It's also indexed as Grace Robertson Sullivan. See screenshot. If it says she was born on 19 July, I think that would nail it.
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That all looks good Forfarian. You’ve tied all the loose ends together. All makes sense.
After hours searching through shipping records, my eyes were blurry, and I could no longer think straight.
Isn’t it good that we can “pass the baton” onto the next shift. :)
Hopefully Oscar will do his part and post the birth record.
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A George McLean ROBERTSON (age 32) died in Errol in 1908.
If that is the husband of Jessie, half sister of Grace, she must have emigrated leaving her husband behind if she arrived in Canada in 1907?
I'm waiting with bated breath for Oscar to post Grace's birth certificate. (I had run out of SP credits and for reasons I fail to understand my credit card has been blocked ???)
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Jessie with 2 sons and mother arrived in Canada in Aug 1908, not 1907.
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I had a couple of credits.
SS
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A George McLean ROBERTSON (age 32) died in Errol in 1908.
If that is the husband of Jessie, half sister of Grace, she must have emigrated leaving her husband behind if she arrived in Canada in 1907?
I'm waiting with bated breath for Oscar to post Grace's birth certificate. (I had run out of SP credits and for reasons I fail to understand my credit card has been blocked ???)
No it’s OK Forfarian, they arrived Canada 2 August 1908
He must have died before they left.
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George McLean Robertson labourer (married to Jessie Cowper) died on 23 January 1908 at Carse Grange Errol
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I had a couple of credits.
SS
Generous S.S. 19th July!
I see the registrar wasn’t satisfied with just writing illegitimate, he also had to say John Cooper “died four years ago” to remove all doubt ;D
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Oooh, thanks to the generous people who have posted the certificates.
Birth 19 July 1886; case solved!
And Grace's brother - named John Fernie Thompson ROBERTSON. His birth is also registered under the names Cooper and Sullivan in 1884. See clip.
So the surname of his mother on his marriage certificate was either an error, or pure fiction.
ADDED - I would hazard a guess that the father may have been the John Fairnie Thompson Robertson born 18th October 1857 Perth. (or at least from that family line.) See reply #4 by Heywood.
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Have you noticed replies are getting held up in the ether?
Hence my repetition of info re Jessie’s arrival (sorry Neale)
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Grace’s nephew named Billy Robertson, was the son of John Robertson and his wife Ada. They had a boy named William Lynn Robertson in 1916.
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Wow, incredible job by everyone, I'm impressed that you collectively managed to solve it. So it means she really was born in 1886, and thus 109 at the time of her death in 1995.
By the way, since my posts have to be approved, there is a delay which makes it difficult to communicate in real-time. I'm not Scottish and don't know how the Scottish people site works, but I am immensely grateful to those who spent credits on this case.
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Grace's brother, John Fernie Thompson Robertson, appears to have confused his mother's maiden name with that of his grandmother. When Mary Sullivan married John Matthewson Cooper in 1867 in Arbroath (see reply#12), she named her parents as Samuel Sullivan and Mary Sullivan m.s. BEAN.
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By the way, since my posts have to be approved, there is a delay which makes it difficult to communicate in real-time.
You are communicating in real time now. It was only your initial response that was delayed because you were new to the forum. Yes, I agree, that delay can be frustrating for everyone.
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I'm not Scottish and don't know how the Scottish people site works
It's quite simple. You register, and all searches are free. Some items, for example the Kirk Session records, are free to view, and others, for example birth, marriage and death certificates, are pay-per-view, but the cost is modest. If you want to see a document, you buy some credits and then use them to view and download the document you want.
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I see the registrar wasn’t satisfied with just writing illegitimate, he also had to say John Cooper “died four years ago” to remove all doubt
That's actually pretty well standard practice when a widow has a child.
I suppose it's because the law assumes that the mother's husband is the father of a child, so to be absolutely clear it needed to be spelled out.
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A search of the Scotland's People for deaths where the deceased's age was 110 to 120 produces 88 results. However the majority are married women indexed under both their maiden and their married surnames, so the actual number of individuals is probably about 50.
All but two of those allegedly aged over 113 are from the Hebrides in the first few decades of registration so would be difficult if not impossible to verify, but there are many more recent ones whose age it should be possible to check against a birth record.
Removing duplicates and those born before the start of civil registration in 1855 leaves 26 people who have died in Scotland and whose age was recorded as 110 or more.