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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Leith Lass on Sunday 24 November 24 15:39 GMT (UK)
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Hi Wondered if anyone could help. I have past relations in my family tree shown in the 1901 census on Ancestry as living at 78 Leith Walk but it also written as 78 Leith Walk or McNeill Hall. Does anyone know of McNeill Hall around this period. Thank you.
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Yes, I do. I found a connection to the family who owned MacNeil Hall according to the 1915 Valuation Roll. t was described as a house, with sixteen tenants identified on the record.
Nell
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I can't identify it on any map so far and I'm not sure how the numbering might have changed (if at all). It may have been on the west side of Leith Walk near Jane Street/Iona Street area.
Nell
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:-[
And I see that I was looking for a similarly named road back in 2011:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=532181.0
Nell
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Thank you Neil. It was maybe the spelling that got me i.e. Ancestry shows it as McNeill and you have it as MacNeill. Interesting you wouldn't have a link to the 1915 valuation roll would you. Much appreciated. Lorna
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It's on ScotlandsPeople.
The names listed as tenants at MacNeil Hall in 1915 are:
George Forrest, coachman
Martin Beskow, seaman,
Donaldson
Archibald Lawrie, carter
Alexander Taylor
Guilar,
Jane Brown, widow
Jessie Andrews, widow
William Flynn, seaman
Terence O'Toole, labourer
William Brown, labourer
Samuel Pollock, packer
plus two vacant numbers
I think it might have been located behind the buildings that fronted the street. I think i've seen both spellings.
Nell
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And I've just found the announcement of a marriage that took place at 9 MacNeil Hall in 1866.
Nell
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Very Interesting. I might just have a look at today's map as I have recollection of where the building might have been or still is. Thank you again.
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Was the area redeveloped as a Goods Yard just post 1900? https://maps.nls.uk/view/75512873#zoom=5.4&lat=5456&lon=5920&layers=BT
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I don't think so, since it was still recorded in the Valuation Roll of 1915 as MacNeil Hall and in 1940.
It is possible that part of it was used as warehouses or workshops with tenements and much later redeveloped, around the 1990s, judging from property adverts in the newspapers.
Nell
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It was maybe the spelling that got me i.e. Ancestry shows it as McNeill and you have it as MacNeill.
Don't get hung up on spelling. Both versions can be correct.
And especially don't trust Ancestry transcriptions to be accurate.
you wouldn't have a link to the 1915 valuation roll would you.
A selection of valuation rolls to 1940 is available at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk > Search the Records > People > Tax Records
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Hi
With the information given I just had a look on google maps and I noticed that at No. 80 is The Tattie Creel and at No.76 Kwick Claims. As such there is no 78 Leith Walk, only a gate and an alleyway. There appears to be a building at the back and I am not sure if it is modern or old but obviously 78 was known as MacNeill Hall. All the times I have walked up and down Leith Walk I never seen that !!!
I notice in the chain that Nell said there was a Valuation Roll for 1915 - do you have the name of the owner please.
Thanks to all
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With the information given I just had a look on google maps and I noticed that at No. 80 is The Tattie Creel and at No.76 Kwick Claims. As such there is no 78 Leith Walk, only a gate and an alleyway. There appears to be a building at the back and I am not sure if it is modern or old but obviously 78 was known as MacNeill Hall.
On Google streetview, the gate has the number 78 embedded in the ironwork, so that’s definitely the correct location.
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1 February 1893: Edinburgh Evening News
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Town Plan 1895 showing the passage way at 78
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74415651#zoom=4.8&lat=7815&lon=4012&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/74415651#zoom=4.8&lat=7815&lon=4012&layers=BT)
side-by-side view with modern 78a and 78b numbered (set back from Leith Walk) if the view has reverted to satellite, select Open Street Map on the right
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19.3&lat=55.96939&lon=-3.17328&layers=168&right=MapTiler (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19.3&lat=55.96939&lon=-3.17328&layers=168&right=MapTiler)
If you are a street view adept you can look at the rear of the buildings from Jane Street.
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https://maps.nls.uk/view/102190564#zoom=6.9&lat=6502&lon=6314&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102190564#zoom=6.9&lat=6502&lon=6314&layers=BT)
This Post Office map of 1840 has a McNeill Place in that vicinity, although perhaps on the east side of Leith Walk?
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Hi Alan
I cannot thank you enough for these links. Especially the newspaper cutting. Christina Gillespie is actually the grandmother of Margaret Davidson Gillespie who was born illegitimate on 18 May 1893. Someone I am trying to trace for a friend. I have posted another question on this person on RootsChat as I only have a birth certificate and her name on her brother's [William Henry Gillespie, also illegitimate] WWI enlistment papers as Margaret [Sister] 78 Leith Walk. I have no other records of her in censuses, marriages or deaths. Her mother was also Margaret and her grandmother Christina. Margaret [mother] died 1894. There are records of her son William living with Christina in 1901 and 1911 but no evidence of her daughter.
Anyway, well I never. I would just like to thank everyone for clearing the mystery of 78 Leith Walk and I am in awe of your skills especially on Maps. I would never know where to begin.
Now on to the mystery of Margaret Davidson Gillespie :'(
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You’re welcome. I did find one more snippet. This refers to a young woman, so possibly not Christina?
15 February 1894: Edinburgh Evening News
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Hi Alan
This is probably Christina again. Much appreciated.
Best Wishes
Lorna
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I begin to see some light.
In 1905 MacNeil Hall was let by to multiple tenants by Louis Gumley, a house agent who had offices at 84 Leith Walk. Nos 78 - 90 were owned by George Cruickshanks, a master cabinet maker and upholsterer.
By 1915, MacNeil Hall had became social housing, run by the Edinburgh Social Union, a philanthropic society. Mrs Helen Kerr's name appeared on the Valuation Roll of 1915, alongside the Edinburgh Social Union. The building seems to have occupied an area near the workshop, stable and yard of George Cruickshanks. These premises also had the address of 78 Leith Walk. Helen Kerr had a formidable reputation as a leading social worker of the day!
This link:
https://www.evoc.org.uk/blog/the-women-who-shaped-edinburghs-social-welfare/
gives some background information about her.
You can read about the beginnings of the Edinburgh Social Union on this site:
https://hodgers.com/mike/patrickgeddes/feature_six.html
Scroll down about half-way.
By this time (1889) the scale and activities of the ESU had arguably moved from Geddes's high-minded idealism of transforming place through beauty to a pragmatic property management company, operating within the discourse of late nineteenth century philanthropic capitalism. This arguably embraced many middle class assumptions regarding the poor and place and raises questions of whether social control or social reform had become the main driving force. The composition of the ESU by this time embraced ministers of religion, schoolteachers and professors with the rent collectors consisting primarily of young, unmarried women. There is little doubt that despite benevolent intimations the relationship between rent collector and tenant was conducted on strict business principles and in accordance with views of how the tenants should behave. Families who 'lowered the tone of a stair' were requested to leave and as one rent collector says: 'there seems no doubt that the tone of a stair does rise under our management. There was also a clear hierarchy by which tenants were deemed suitable for elevation to higher quality properties only if they had obeyed the rules: 'it still seems a dubious experiment to move a tenant to a superior type of house until he has learned to appreciate its authority.' However, as O'Day makes the point the social control argument cannot be stretched too far. Families voluntarily applied for the Society's houses and demand was greater than supply. The families who did live in ESU managed properties, largely chose to abide by the rules and it is interesting to note that rent defaults were minimal. There is also evidence that when tenants became unemployed, the rent collectors helped them in their search for work. Some families did move on to better accommodation: 'we find it an advantage to have properties of different grades and occasionally we have the great satisfaction of passing a family on from a lower to a higher-grade tenement. It is pleasant to find that our tenants as a rule prefer to move on to another of our properties and still be 'under the ladies'.
I also found this newspaper article :
The Scotsman 26 September 1901
extract from article entitled 'Cheap Dwellings Conference in Glasgow'
Mrs Helen Kerr stated that she was present as a member of the Edinburgh Social Union, and explained a system of managing cheap dwelling-houses that was in operation in Edinburgh. They collected the rents every Monday morning and were responsible to the Town Council in edinburgh for the management of the property, for the carrying out of repairs, keeping order, and seeing that the properties under their charge were kept clean, orderly and in decent occupation. Their great difficulty was with the class of tenants whom they should choose. .....
The article goes on to talk about the rents charged and how the Union wanted to provide more rented homes for different levels of affordability.
Returning to the 1895 Valuation Roll, James Gillespie, a labourer rented 11 MacNiel Hall, Christina Gillespie, a widow, can be found at No 13. Christina is still there at No 13 in 1905.
It would seem that MacNeil Hall had been one of the derelict buildings that Patrick Geddes, a notable botanist and town-planner, alongside the Edinburgh Social Union, had worked to rescue and turned into a liveable space.
Now it makes me wonder who MacNeil was.
Nell
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Thank you Nell. You have been very busy. I have never found out as much about Leith Walk than I do now. Nt sure if James Gillespie is a relation as my tree is not complete but definitely Christina. Unfortunately she passed in 1915. I am still on the hunt for her granddaughter.