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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Littlebn20 on Wednesday 20 November 24 12:04 GMT (UK)
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Good morning.
I have been doing some research into my 4 x G Grandfather Eliphalet Hill (previously a topic conversation here owing to his unusual name, none the wiser still)!
He is noted as a deceased Coffee Roaster on my 3 x Great-Grandparents (Ann Hill & Henry Weaver) marriage record in 1859, and all of the family were located in Shoreditch/Mile End/Whitechapel/Spitalfields, essentially in all directions directly off Brick Lane.
On Eliphaltet's birth record from 1805, his parents are John & Mary Hill. I have recently discovered a probate record from 1832, belonging to a John Hill from Shoreditch who was a Coffee House Keeper at 189 Church Street, Shoreditch (now Fournier Street). I have lost my Ancestry subscription and access to the records, but from memory, the address on Eliphalet's birth record (or some other record) tally with what is in John Hill's will.
I wondered if anyone had any knowledge or records of coffee houses in the area at this time? This John Hill appears to have been pretty wealthy, leaving lots of cash and items I think to a sister & brother, but no mention of a wife or children. I think that Eliphalet and family must have lived in relative poverty as they are found in the slum district of Flower & Dean St on 1841 census, which makes me wonder if the names and occupations are a coincidence?
Coffee House Keeper and Coffee Roaster seem to be unusual-ish jobs at the time, in a small area, with the same (albeit) highly common surname. Just wondered if anyone had any knowledge/opinions on the above? Grateful, as always.
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Sorry, Mother Susannah (Saddler) - Not Mary. Mary was Eliphalet's spouse.
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Have just discovered this https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/z1TC3fE1Nd3GIJ2Ng/2/6/3159202?RECORD&UNION=Y&URLMARKER=STARTREQUEST
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Have just discovered this https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/z1TC3fE1Nd3GIJ2Ng/2/6/3159202?RECORD&UNION=Y&URLMARKER=STARTREQUEST
This link has timed out
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Oh that is annoying. It was an insurance document for John Hill, Coffee House Keeper at 189 Church Street, Shoreditch. It also referred to an additional property at Garden Terrace and both of these addresses are mentioned in the Will, so it is the same John Hill. I can't view the insurance document online so I just got the 'headlines' from it.
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Listed in Holden's Annual London and Country Directory (1811)
Hill John, the Cross Keys Inn & Coffee House, 109, St. John's-st.
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Incredible work, thank you!
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Found a possible reference to it... https://londonwiki.co.uk/LondonPubs/StSepulchre/CrossKeys.shtml
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Found a possible reference to it... https://londonwiki.co.uk/LondonPubs/StSepulchre/CrossKeys.shtml
Definitely the right place - right address, and John Hill even has two mentions as the patron in 1822 and 1825.
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Yes, I agree. Thank you again. I just need to try and find out if he is anything to do with my Eliphalet Hill. Needle + Haystack = the rest of my afternoon ;D
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Local area in 1746
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It is fascinating. I note that the street was re-numbered at some point, I wonder why?
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re: the initial post
How did you decide that the Church Street location is the Spitalfields Church Street, now Fournier Street? There was another Church Street a little to the north which is perhaps a better candidate, particularly if it has to accommodate addresses including number 189.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/229949405#zoom=5.9&lat=1587&lon=4812&layers=BT
This Church Street seems to correspond in part to the modern Redchurch Street, running east from Shoreditch High Street but it continued further. By the time of the 1876 large scale town plan it isn't labelled as separate from Bethnal Green Road.
added: I should have said, the map is the large scale town plan of 1856.
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I just had a look at the 1910 valuation survey map, hoping to find some hints.. The section of the road running from Shoreditch High Street as far as the modern junction with Bethnal Green Road is still labelled as Church Road at that time, with addresses up into the 90s. This end point corresponds approximately to the junction with Rose Street/Swan Street on the older map that I linked to above, so presumably #189 was further east.
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@AlanBoyd - I think that I researched it on Google to match Church St with Fournier St. I would say that I found it a bit tricky to understand the logistics though and probably lazily accepted the first answer.
I do remember looking at the map and thinking that the location was extremely close to New Castle Street, which was the address on my Eliphalet's baptism records. I am trying very hard not to 'make it fit'. There is some logic to it, but some of the elements are questionable re John Hill and no wife/children named in the will.
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In case this helps
Northampton Mercury 31 December 1825
BEDFORDSHIRE
MAGPIE INN, WOBURN
John Hill, of the Cross Keys Inn, Saint John Street, London, begs leave most respectfully to inform the Public and particularly Commercial Gentlemen, that he has purchased and entered upon those commodious premises known as the Magpie Inn, at Woburn, long established as a most respectable commercial Inn and Travellers' House, in which , by strict attention and supplying Articles of the very best Quality, he trusts he shall merit a Continuation of their Favor and Support.
John Hill cannot omit the present Opportunity of offering to his numerous Friends and Customers at the Cross Keys Inn his unfeigned Thanks for their Favors and hopes to receive the same during the Remainder of his Time in that House.
N.B. John HIll intending to remove from the Cross Keys to the Magpie his extensive Stock of [unreadable] flavoured old Wines, of very superiour uality, he will be enabled to supply his Friends and the Public upon moderate Terms.
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Thank you for sharing this. How interesting, his will definitely paints him as a Coffee House Keeper, but seems more like an Inn Keeper really?
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Having said that, his will was from 1832, so had perhaps moved about a bit!
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Coffee House Keeper and Coffee Roaster seem to be unusual-ish jobs at the time, in a small area, with the same (albeit) highly common surname. Just wondered if anyone had any knowledge/opinions on the above? Grateful, as always.
From my copy of "Consuming Passion" by Judith Flanders...
"They were on to a winning thing, for over the next five years [following 1657] another 83 coffee houses appeared; by 1801 there were over 500 in London alone, and they had developed as places to drink coffee and meet friends, and, equally importantly, as places to conduct business.
"Outside London, much social life was maintained in these coffee rooms; they were centres of information and news, and they served a wide range of readers, from the whitesmith to the idle dandy. By 1833 the Manchester Coffee and Newsroom took 96 papers a week, plus several periodicals and reviews; it cost 1d. to sit and read, 2d. with coffee thrown in. The Exchange Coffee House, also in Manchester, riposted with 130 papers a week, 186 on Saturdays, as well as a range of foreign papers. The upper classes had their own coffee houses, particularly in the spa and resort towns. In 1739 Tunbridge Wells had three coffee houses that we know of, perhaps more, where for 5s. visitors could have 'the use of pens, ink, paper &c.' "
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Oh, to be a fly on the wall! I had no idea that coffee was such a big commodity back then. Learning new things on this journey all the time!
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Wow, I couldn't get on with only a few posts earlier...now 3 pages of replies!!!
***adding: yes, Dave, I was taken back by the amount of coffee houses as well, but also saw that taverns & brandy-houses and coffee-houses could all be in one place.
Noting that Pepys met with many people at his coffee houses...
Publications:
The Lay-man's sermon upon the late storm; held forth at an honest Coffee-House-Conventicle
The Character of a coffee-house with the symptomes of a town-wit: April 11th, 1673
By the King. A proclamation for the suppression of coffee-houses published 1675
(probably to stop the gabbers from putting down leaders...as in this one:)
The Usurpers: or The coffee-house politicians. A farce [electronic resource] 1749
This one may just be coincidence but you never know...
Letter to Captain Edwards from the Chief and factors at Mocha requesting that nothing be carried on board ship which might adversely affect the coffee through its smell. The letter is dated 15 July 1719 from John Hill and Edward Say, on behalf of Court of Directors of the East India Company. Date: 13 Jun 1720 It was received via the ship Susannah, on 17 June 1720.
All, or only the one? Maybe the will below will help solve? Records: Sun Fire Insurance, London:
John Hill, 189 Church Street, Shoreditch, coffee house keeper -24 May 1832
John Hill 3 Albemarle Street Clerkenwell coffee house keeper -18 March 1829
John Hill 4 Commercial Place City Road coffee house keeper -25 February 1830
Other property or occupiers: Wadding manufacturer
John Hill, 12 Vittoria Street White Conduit Fields, gent -15 Dec 1830
Other property/occupiers: 3 Albermarle Street Clerkenwell (coffee house keeper)
* John Hill, "189 Church Street" , Shoreditch, coffee house keeper
Other property or occupiers: Garden Terrace, City Road 24 May 1832
* by 1834 a Francis Gostelow is paying insurance at 189 Church Street
p.s. The same address was insured by a butcher at turn of the century!!!
also:
Will of John Hill, Coffee House Keeper of Saint Mary Lambeth , Surrey Date: 24 May 1852
Old Bailey Proceedings 1795- a Thomas Hill was keep of the Fountain Coffee house,
Addle-street near Aldermanbury (which, according to the hearing also served beer)
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Thanks, this is a lot of really interesting information. I need to see if I can establish a family link, or disprove it now. You have all been really helpful, thank you. @J.J Do you happen to have access to the particulars of the 1852 will. I am pretty sure that my Eliphalet died in 1848, but I would be interested to learn if there were any references to a wife Susannah, or any other potential children.
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;D Might be the only one on the post who doesn't! ;D I see that poor Susanah appears to have given birth to a baker's dozen! What was the father's occupation on all these births?
Also, since you have posted John Hill Coffee House & named it as such, you'll be getting posts about both. The proximity of these John Hills still could mean relatives were employing them... The fact that they were in my ancestors old stomping grounds has peaked my interest. They'd have likely visited several!
Further to Bbart's find, this fellow was born out of London, and we don't know if your John was born in London, either, or do we? Some of mine went a long way to marry & also sometimes to bear children.
Owners of the The Magpie, John Hill 1828-1886
Age 65 Birth 1772-1776 "Bedford Street" (will 1853)
1841 census Woburn, Bedfordshire, Eng
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQRS-H8V
John Hill 76 years Birth 1775 Newport, Buckinghamshire
-wife Sarah in 1851 census Woburn, Bedfordshire, Eng
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGCH-48D
still owned by a John B. hill in 1881 at sale of the Inn
If this one, born 1847 Clapton, Middlesex, England
https://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/CommunityHistories/Woburn/LongsHotelWoburn.aspx
Place still looked the same in the listing photo
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1146456
Also found a John Hill of Wooburn, Bedford Widowed - Banns & marriages 5 Sept 1794
married Jane Hull, also widowed, of Wavendon at Wavendon, Buckinghamshire
and a John Hill Birth 1815 Birthplace Potsgrove, Bedfordshire
"Bedford Street" 1861 Woburn, Bedfordshire, England, United Kingdom
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Still all very speculative as to whether or not he is actually my John Hill or not and the more I hear about him, the less likely I think it is as my Hill's don't appear to have come from money at all. What I know for certain is that Eliphalet Hill was born in 1805 to John Hill and Susannah, address on baptism given as New Castle Street in Shoreditch. It is not clear from my research if John and Susannah had any other children. The Witnesses on Eliphalet's marriage record to Mary Wright are William and Sarah Sadler. There was a Susannah Sadler born to William & Sarah Sadler in 1773 in Shoreditch, so have established that this likely the Susannah that was Eliphalet's mother. That's basically all I have got. Eliphalet Hill is seemingly the only Eliphalet in London in that period. I have been pondering on the unusual name for years. I have no Jewish ancestry, but it is very much a Hebrew name, pronounced Ihl-ah-falet.
UPDATE: Sophia Hill - Born to John & Susannah, Whitechapel 1798
Sarah Hill - Born to John & Susannah, Whitechapel 1802
John Hill - Born to John & Susannah, Whitechapel 1803
Does anyone have access to birth records to check these records for address/father occupation?
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Perhaps someone might be kind enough to look into these for you, to see if they have an occupation for John ...not sure if all yours, but consecutive, so, perhaps.
Parents John Hill, Susanna (or Susan)
-George Hill Birth 2 Jan 1794 Bapt 26 Jan 1794 St Leonard's, Shoreditch, M
-Sarah Hill Chr 13 September 1795 Saint Mary Matfelon, Stepney, Middlesex, Eng
-Sophia Hill Bapt 15 April 1798 Whitechapel, Middlesex, Eng
-William Hill Birth 17 Jan 1800 Bapt 11 January 1801 Saint Mary Matfelon...
-John Hill Chris 2 October 1803 Saint Mary Matfelon...
-Sarah Hill Birth 29 March 1802 Christ 6 Jan 1803 Saint Mary Matfelon...
-Eliphalet Hill Baptism 15 Dec 805 Whitechapel, Middlesex, Eng
-William Hill Birth 22 August 1809 Bapt 10 Sept 1809 Shoreditch, Middlesex,Eng
-Mary Ann Hill Birth Feb 23 Bapt 29 March 1812 Shoreditch...
-William Hill Birth 18 March 1814 Bapti 17 April 1814 Shoreditch....
-John Marcus Hill Birth 21 Feb 1815 Bapt 12 March 1815 Shoreditch...
-Hannah Hill Birth 3 Nov 1816 Bapt 25 Nov 1816 Shoreditch...
-Alfred Irvine Hill Birth 21 Dec 1817 Bapt 8 Feb 1818 Shoreditch...
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Parents John Hill, Susanna (or Susan) (written as recorded)
-George Hill Birth 2 Jan 1794 Bapt 26 Jan 1794 St Leonard's, Shoreditch, M
John and Susanna of Smith Buildings, no occupation
-Sarah Hill Chr 13 September 1795 Saint Mary Matfelon, Stepney, Middlesex, Eng
John and Susannah, Castle Alley, no occupations
-Sophia Hill Bapt 15 April 1798 Whitechapel, Middlesex, Eng
John and Susan, Castle Street, no occupations given
-William Hill Birth 17 Jan 1800 Bapt 11 January 1801 Saint Mary Matfelon...
John and Susan, Castle Street, no occupations given
-John Hill Chris 2 October 1803 Saint Mary Matfelon...
John and Susanna, Castle Street, no occupations listed (St Mary, Whitechapel)
-Sarah Hill Birth 29 March 1802 Christ 6 Jan 1803 Saint Mary Matfelon...
John and Susannah, New Castle Street, no occupations given
-Eliphalet Hill Baptism 15 Dec 805 Whitechapel, Middlesex, Eng
John and Susanna, New Castle Street, no occupations given
-William Hill Birth 22 August 1809 Bapt 10 Sept 1809 Shoreditch, Middlesex,Eng
John and Susanna, Union Walk, no occupations given
-Mary Ann Hill Birth Feb 23 Bapt 29 March 1812 Shoreditch...
John and Susanna, Swan Yard, no occupations listed
-William Hill Birth 18 March 1814 Bapti 17 April 1814 Shoreditch....
John and Susannah, New Inn Yard, twine spinner
-John Marcus Hill Birth 21 Feb 1815 Bapt 12 March 1815 Shoreditch...
father John, a carpenter, and mother Susannah, Hoxton Town
-Hannah Hill Birth 3 Nov 1816 Bapt 25 Nov 1816 Shoreditch...
John and Susanna, New Inn yard, ropemaker
-Alfred Irvine Hill Birth 21 Dec 1817 Bapt 8 Feb 1818 Shoreditch...
Father John is a silversmith, mother Susan, abode New Inn Yard
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Immediately under the marriage of Eliphalet , is a marriage, on the same day, for a William Hill marrying Charlotte Turner, in which Sophia Hill was a witness; matching the Castle Street Hill baptisms.
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So nice of you to do all that, bbart!
Sadly, I was hoping it might be the same family, moving up in the world, but appears not...as I looked for many various spellings & just found these...a son for and death of your ancestor. Sadly, in a workhouse.
- John Lifelet Hill b. 1833, Middlesex
- 1841 as Liflett Hill - Mary & 3 children https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQV7-MWH
- Death HILL, LIFELET age 43 GRO Ref : 1848 Dec Quarter WHITECHAPEL UNION
- a John Lifelet Hill (GRO-mother Mdn name Watkins) Birth Reg 1864 Whitechapel, London, Eng
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It was a good thought, JJ. The vast number of Hills is not helping!
Highlights of the will of John Hill, died 1932
John was a coffee house keeper
His sister, Elizabeth Mary Hill, was given all interests in the business at 189 Church St., Shoreditch
His mother is ...Ann Hill got the Garden Terrace... see clip now which is the next part, and has addresses and a Hannah Matilda (is that her last name at the start of the next line, which looks like "Warrant"?)
After the clip, it goes on to:
Sister Mary Ann Hill also got interests in Garden Terrace, but no idea of this is the same home as his mother (I think it is)
He has a brother Charles that got some kind of apparel.
Any residuals went to his mother, Ann.
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In 1838, Albion Coffee house, a "Superior Ale House" to be let as there was a sudden death in last tenant's family. No names were given, so not sure if still with Elizabeth Hill.
Source: Morning Herald (London) 04 October 1838
In 1840, 189 Church St, Shoreditch was the Albion Coffee House, run by George Martin and his wife.
Source: Bell's New Weekly Messenger 01 March 1840 plus many other papers as someone tried to murder them....
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Thank you SO much! This is so amazing. I genuinely appreciate your interest and work on this. You know what it is like to find out new information when you have been researching for years.
There are definitely some siblings of Eliphalet here as the addresses match. Very interesting on the Sophia marriage record too. Sophia is not someone that I have heard of before, so this is incredibly useful.
I am pretty confident now that Mr Coffee House Keeper is nothing to do with my family, although as some point Eliphalet was a Coffee Roaster, he was also a Bricklayer, how bizarre.
I would have thanked you earlier, but i suspect that we may be on separate time zones. :)
Please know that I have so much gratitude for all that have helped xx
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Where was the Albion Coffee House, 189 Church Street, Shoreditch?
This continues from my replies #12 and #13.
We know (reply #28) that John Hill's will of 1832 refers to 189 Church Street. We also know that newspaper items from 1838 and 1840 refer to 189 Church Street as the Albion Coffee House. The 1840 item relates to the attempted murder of George Martin of the Albion Coffee House, and it is clear from reading the account of the case that he lived on the premises.
In the 1841 census there is a George Martin, coffee house keeper at Church Street in the parish of St Leonards, Shoreditch (this is Shoreditch/Holywell and Moorfields/ED1). This entry is embedded amongst entries in High Street, Shoreditch and Old Cock Lane (renamed to Boundary Street by 1876) and including places just off High Street that are labelled on the map linked below (Jane Shore Court, New Inn Passage, Byde's Place) or are present in that same area on John Rocque's map of 1747 (Hare Court/Hair Alley, and Cock Alley).
Also note that on the linked map a boundary (dashed line) runs down the centre of Boundary Street until it reaches Church Road/Bethnal Green Road where it dog legs into York Street. I think this must mean that the Albion Coffee House was likely located somewhere at the western end of Church Road. I was tempted to suggest that it might correspond to the PH marked on the corner with Shoreditch High Street on the linked map: however in the 1910 valuation survey this is a public house at 64 Shoreditch High Street but there is nothing in the description to suggest that it might be a particularly old building. Also there are newspaper items that refer to Church Road addresses up to 195 and 196, so the coffee house was presumably not at the very end of Church Road.
Finally, I suggested in my reply #13 that the Albion would have been located at the eastern end of Church Street based upon the fact that the numbering in 1910 runs from west to east. If #189 was actually at the western end as I am suggesting here, then there must have been a renumbering. Related to this, John Roque's map shows that at that time (1747) the Church Street on the 1856 Town Plan (see link in reply #12), starting at High Street, consisted of: Canning Alley running as far as Cock Lane [Boundary Street]; then was a continuation of Cock Lane up to Club Row; then New Cock Lane as far as Tyssen Street/Brick Lane; then Church Street for a short distance up to the junction with Satchwell Rents when it ran into open countryside. Thus it is possible that, as the whole stretch to the west became part of Church Street, the numbering ran from the original Church Street in the east all the way to Shoreditch High Street. Perhaps when Church Street was truncated by Bethnal Green Road it was renumbered from the High Street end. And then at some point it became Redchurch Street.
This is a link to the 1876 25 inch OS map:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313000#zoom=5.6&lat=2126&lon=6803&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313000#zoom=5.6&lat=2126&lon=6803&layers=BT)
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Sorry, AlanBoyd, that we made it such a long read since your last posts...Although I have been mapping many coffee houses, locations etc. from several replies, and they are a pretty walkable circle of just 1.5 hrs...We are pretty sure now that there is no direct family line link to the coffee house owners. He was in the trade, though...so you never know if a kind relative may have helped him out by giving him a job as coffee roaster. Times were so tough back then, and lives were short. Sadly, having died in a workhouse, he would have nothing to leave & no will to trace family.
Map of some approx. locations mentioned in posts
(w. approx. Flower & Dean & Castle Place on right near their church)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xxKk3BLwyaoKpFbC6
Littlebn20, missing something...when was he a bricklayer?
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Well, hopefully, in some distant future, someone else will be interested in the Albion Coffee House.
Added: I’m too late to modify #30, but I now realise that the boundary for which Boundary Street (formerly Cock Lane) was named and as shown on the linked map is the parish boundary between Shoreditch (to the west) and Bethnal Green (to the east). Thus references to Albion Coffee House, Shoreditch mean that it would be expected to lie to the west of the boundary, which is what I concluded from other evidence.
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Sorry, AlanBoyd, that we made it such a long read since your last posts...Although I have been mapping many coffee houses, locations etc. from several replies, and they are a pretty walkable circle of just 1.5 hrs...We are pretty sure now that there is no direct family line link to the coffee house owners. He was in the trade, though...so you never know if a kind relative may have helped him out by giving him a job as coffee roaster. Times were so tough back then, and lives were short. Sadly, having died in a workhouse, he would have nothing to leave & no will to trace family.
Map of some approx. locations mentioned in posts
(w. approx. Flower & Dean & Castle Place on right near their church)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xxKk3BLwyaoKpFbC6
Littlebn20, missing something...when was he a bricklayer?
I think that he was a bricklayer on the 1841 census in Flower & Dean Street. He was certainly a Coffee Roaster on a marriage certificate. I will try to track it down!
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Well, hopefully, in some distant future, someone else will be interested in the Albion Coffee House.
Such excellent research and I feel as if I have learned something :)
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You aren't really a beginner on the site anymore, so you could be posting in the known regions. Also I note you've have had help on some this family on other posts as well, which isn't a sin, as we all forget...but a simple use of the "search" in the header panel above using your username & surnames to be searched would find an appropriate thread on which to continue to post for more information
There's also very little old information left on Google anymore that you could also use the same keywords for results on Rootschat as it's always been a very popular site (as are most genealogy sites, thank goodness!)
Queries re: Eliphalet, etc
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866609.0
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I did caveat on my very first entry on this thread that I had asked about Eliphalet on a previous chat some time ago.
I came here to ask about John Hill and the Coffee House and not Eliphalet, it has just evovled in to that and I had no idea that would be frowned upon. I am desperate to learn more about my family history and have asked for help from people who are much more knowledgeable about these subjects than I am. I was very open about my Ancestry subscription lapsing and asking for help to learn more.
I am clearly not au fait with the roots chat/etiquette and I now feel suitably scolded for that. I shall find a more relaxed place to ask for help in the future. Thanks to all who contributed. :(
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No, No! I was in a hurry as I am not the only one on this computer... I was informing, not meaning to scold. What I had meant to add was please refer to older threads with a url as I did...which is posted again, below.
(also... I felt scolded by you earlier on in this thread as well, but continued regardless, as it is hard to read feelings from the written word)
Queries re: Eliphalet, etc
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866609.0
BTW, I posted a hint on that query if you'd looked ...(re: your DNA match)
adding: the other query re: Eliphalet that I didn't have time to search for & add
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866568.0
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"I came here to ask about John Hill and the Coffee House and not Eliphalet"
Sound more as though you are scolding us. We did well, with many of us devoting a great deal of our time and hopefully some other descendants might appreciate it somewhere down the road.
from top of page 2 of replies...
Yes, I agree. Thank you again. I just need to try and find out if he is anything to do with my Eliphalet Hill. Needle + Haystack = the rest of my afternoon ;D
Middle of page 3 replies:
Thanks, this is a lot of really interesting information. I need to see if I can establish a family link, or disprove it now. You have all been really helpful, thank you. @J.J Do you happen to have access to the particulars of the 1852 will. I am pretty sure that my Eliphalet died in 1848, but I would be interested to learn if there were any references to a wife Susannah, or any other potential children.
Again on page 3Still all very speculative as to whether or not he is actually my John Hill or not and the more I hear about him, the less likely I think it is as my Hill's don't appear to have come from money at all. What I know for certain is that Eliphalet Hill was born in 1805 to John Hill and Susannah, address on baptism given as New Castle Street in Shoreditch. It is not clear from my research if John and Susannah had any other children. The Witnesses on Eliphalet's marriage record to Mary Wright are William and Sarah Sadler. There was a Susannah Sadler born to William & Sarah Sadler in 1773 in Shoreditch, so have established that this likely the Susannah that was Eliphalet's mother. That's basically all I have got. Eliphalet Hill is seemingly the only Eliphalet in London in that period. I have been pondering on the unusual name for years. I have no Jewish ancestry, but it is very much a Hebrew name, pronounced Ihl-ah-falet.
UPDATE: Sophia Hill - Born to John & Susannah, Whitechapel 1798
Sarah Hill - Born to John & Susannah, Whitechapel 1802
John Hill - Born to John & Susannah, Whitechapel 1803
Does anyone have access to birth records to check these records for address/father occupation?
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Back to the original topic of the thread.
Just to summarise: in 1841 Eliphalet Hill is a bricklayer living in Flower and Dean Street. He is described as a deceased coffee roaster at the time of his daughter's marriage in 1859.
In A Dictionary of Old Trades etc. by Colin Waters there is this entry:
coffee roaster. Though this can be a shopkeeper who sells coffee, it is more likely to indicate one of many workers in a large coffee-producing factory
In Robson's London Directory of 1842 there are only nineteen listings under the heading of Coffee and Cocoa-Nut Roasters from which I conclude that these are significant businesses (not shopkeepers!) One of these is:
Gummer, Thos. 5 Flower & Dean st. Spitalfields, & 56 & 57 High st., Mile end new town
Thus I think the conclusion must be that Eliphalet Hill at some time after 1841 began to work at Thomas Gummer’s establishment as a coffee roaster.
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Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. :)
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This is a confusing family to be sure, but JJ and I were on the right track in trying to sort out the occupation problem.
For example, Ann Elizabeth Hill's baptism (1830?*) shows her parents as JOHN and Mary Hill, of New Castle St., JOHN being a coffee roaster.
Her marriage in 1859 to Henry Weaver puts her father as "Liflett" Hill, a coffee roaster.
John Lifelet Hill, assumably Ann's brother: his baptism gives this:
May 26, 1833 John Lifelet Hill, son of Lifelet and Mary, Crispin st, coffee roaster
His marriage states his father was a coffee roaster.
I cannot find a baptism for Ann's brother Joseph, but his marriage also states father was a coffee roaster.
The 1841 census shows bricklayer for Lifelet Hill.
The 1848 death for Lifelet Hill shows an address in Mile End New Town, occupation BRICKLAYER, and wife Mary Ann. EDIT: occupation is bricklayer's labourer.
I really think a good look is needed for Eliphalet's brother John, b 1803, to see if he may have had a middle name of Lifelet, and a coffee roaster, OR his father, John (did he remarry?) and that for whatever reason, Eliphalet was raising his children.
There is also a Mary ANN Hill, widow, remarrying in 1850, living on Church St, Shoreditch that should be ruled in or out.
* This baptismal book has the years scattered all over the place, the transcription says 1830, which could be right, but very hard to tell from the actual image.
Edited to add snip