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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: St Gregory on Wednesday 20 November 24 00:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi. I’m new here. From his gravestone I know that my great great grandfather was born in 1820 and died of consumption in 1863 when he was buried in Newtown.
I also know that his son Edward Morris Morgan was born in 1862 at Cwmdu, Dolfor where Thomas was a farmer.
I haven’t however been able to trace his birth. Of course this may not have been in Dolfor. And Thomas Morgan is not exactly a rare name in the Newtown area!
Can anyone help at all please?
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Found it, I think. A mix of variable versions of surnames and using a previous married surname as a maiden name
Here's his birth registration
MORGANS, EDWARD MORRIS
mmn MORRIS
Q1 1862
NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 216
I worked this out from Edward Morgan b Kerry in Newtown on the 1881 census. He's with his mother Jane and stepfather John Hamer
1871 Jane Morgan is widowed with sons Edward, 9 b Kerry and George 12 b Bettws
John Hamer marries Jane Morgan in 1873 - her father's name is John Denley
June 1859 there's a baptism of George Denley Morgan, son of Thomas and Jane. Thomas is a farmer, of Walk Mill
George is also registered as Morgans
Jane Denley marries Edward Morris in 1844
There's a potential Thomas Morgan - Jane Morris marriage in Q4 1851
What I do find odd is Jane seemingly naming her son after her first husband!
There was also this birth
MORGANS, THOMAS RICHARD
mmn DENLEY
Q1 1857
NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 215
Plus daughters Ann Elizabeth (1852 - Morgans) and Margaret (1854 - Morgan)
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Many thanks for your efforts. :) :)
I knew quite a lot of what you had there, but there is some new information - though not TRM's birth? George Denley Morgan (born in Bettws which is not Dolfor or Kerry) is new to me, as is Ann Elizabeth Morgans and Walk Mill - wherever that is!*
After some effort I had worked out that Jane was nee Denley, married a Morris, was widowed, married a Morgan, was widowed again, then married a Hamer! For a long time I had assumed her birth name was Morris.
Anyway its midnight and I must look again tomorrow.
*there seems to be one at Mochdre which is certainly in the same vicinity.
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There is no Thomas Richard Morgan death in 1863. This is the death reg matching an 1820 birth
MORGAN, THOMAS 43
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 147
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There is no Thomas Richard Morgan death in 1863. This is the death reg matching an 1820 birth
MORGAN, THOMAS 43
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 147
Yes, that will be him. The grave inscription just has Thomas Morgan.
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Where did the name Richard come from?
Is there other documentation to support a middle name?
Reason I ask is there is an 1851 entry for a Thomas Morgan aged 30 - unmarried - farmers son - & his father is Richard - farmer
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Where did the name Richard come from?
Is there other documentation to support a middle name?
Reason I ask is there is an 1851 entry for a Thomas Morgan aged 30 - unmarried - farmers son - & his father is Richard - farmer
Yes there is. It’s from his son’s marriage certificate (Edward Morris Morgan) which I have saved.
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I’m no further forward with this yet, in case anybody has any ideas?
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If you look at the top of the page you will see your post has been read 120 times so if anybody was able to help - they would have.
Looking at your opening post - the only info given is from a gravestone & the name etc of his son.
You presumably have Thomas on the 1851 & possibly 1861 censuses (a lot of the Welsh 1861 is missing) so should have his actual birthplace.
Have you purchased a copy of his marriage cert to establish his fathers name & occupation?
You say Edward Morris Morgan was b Cwmdu 1862- that was in Glamorgan & the Reg district was Bridgend - see link below. I cannot see an 1871 or 1881 entry with that birthplace & it seems strange that Edward would be b Glamorgan in 1862 & his father Thomas dies Montgomeryshire the following year?
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/places/regindex2-2.pdf
Do you have Edwards birth cert confirming his mothers christian name & maiden name?
Have you found Edward on the 1871 or 1881 census - please post full details
An Edward Morris Morgan aged 42 died Newtown 1904 - presumably the Edward you are researching
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The 1901 for Edward M Morgan shows his birthplace as Kerry & the 1891 Dolfor then 1881 as Kerry living as stepson - See earlier reply from Mabel
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Carole, your tone seems rather impatient and combative. I’m not sure why.
I have no shortage of information about Edward Morris Morgan, my great grandfather. My issue with his father, Thomas Richard Morgan.
I know his dates/years from his gravestone. EMM was his third child, born in Dolfor, a small village near Newtown, which was in the parish of Kerry. Cwmdu is not in Glamorgan; it is, I assume, a house name or farm in Dolfor. As Cwmdu simply means black valley, I imagine it is not an uncommon name.
EMM’s older brother was born in 1859 in Bettws Cedewain, another village near Newtown. I infer from this that Thomas was a tenant farmer who moved around. He’s not described as an Ag Lab but as a farmer. I don’t, however have the details of his marriage, so cannot get a certificate. Nevertheless, his wife was married to Mr Morris until he died in 1850, and she and Thomas had a daughter Margaret in 1854 (she dies in 1867). So the marriage was - probably - between 1850 and 1854.
I haven’t found Thomas on any census either - not knowingly anyway. The problem is his common name. There are any number chaps called Thomas Morgan in mid Wales and of course I don’t know his whereabouts at all before 1859 at the age of 39. He was presumably single before 1854, so the 1841 and 1851 census won’t help much in terms of relatives with identifiable names.
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Margaret b 1854 & George b 1859 - have you found them on the 1861 census. I'm not having any luck. I can find one Thomas & Jane - childless & Thomas was b 1834
There is a Thomas & Jane Morgans but wrong children & birthyears
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Looking at the missing Welsh 1861 shows the following pieces are missing for Montgomeryshire
4256
4261-4263
4265
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
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Thanks again. This is why I'm stuck.
In a previous reply, Mabel said
"There's a potential Thomas Morgan - Jane Morris marriage in Q4 1851"
...which sounds promising, but I haven't found that. At least the names and date all fit.
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Marriage is on freebmd - www.freebmd.org.uk
Thomas Morgan Dec qtr 1851 Newtown 27 239
There are several entries on the same page - one of which is Jane Morris. Unfortunately they won't appear on the 1851 as the marriage was after the census. There is also no guarantee that Thomas married Jane Morris as there are 4 male & 4 female names but no way of knowing from that entry who married who
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1851 has 4 entries for a Thomas Morgan in the age range. The only one unmarried was aged 30 - father Richard aged 63 is a farmer. Mother is Anne
Both b Aberhale
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This is a longshot. The marriage wasn’t that long after the 1851 census. You could chance buying the 1851 cert & put a condition on it that you only want it if marriage was to Jane Morris.
If his address is shown on the cert you can compare it with the Thomas I found above.
If not - if you have a FindMyPast sub you can search the 1851 by address
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Thank you. It seems very likely that this is the correct marriage, so I will certainly try that.
I suppose it’s certain there is a certificate? I’m surprised it hasn’t come up on Ancestry, but I’m no expert on how all the sources work.
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There is a GRO index number so yes - there is a certificate.
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I've taken a flyer and ordered it - I couldn't see anywhere to put a condition specifying it had to be a Morgan-Morris union, but the facts do seem to suggest it is. The order form asks for both names, so I don't know what GRO would do if they found each had married someone else?
It does seem odd that the records don't show who married whom, but I suppose there was some reason.
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The spouse surname only appears against entries from March qtr 1912
I am guessing that if you put Jane Morris as the spouse & it doesn’t match - no cert will be issued but they may charge a small admin fee - ?? £4
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I've now received the Thomas Morgan/Jane Morris marriage certificate from 1851 and am pleased to report it establishes some excellent information. :)
So thanks to those of you who pointed me in the right direction!
In 1851 Thomas was 31, still single and living with his parents. The certificate names his father as Richard Morgan(s) and confirms he was a farmer living in Tregynon. I have the name of the farm - which still exists - and this has enabled me to pick the family up on the censuses of 1841 and 1851, with the usual numerous children, which I can now research.
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Just as an update, this post has moved me on significantly. I've been in touch with the current farmer at Bronhafod in Tregynon via the village Facebook group and now have photos of the house. I've also moved back a couple of generations to the early 1700s where the family seem to have moved from Clun.