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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: KD146 on Friday 08 November 24 03:02 GMT (UK)
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I am interested in the second marriage record on the attached page from the Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI for Little Bray, no.195, Peter Kearney and Jane Toole.
There is a Dispensation note on columns 7 and 8 which is practically illegible. I wonder if anyone more familiar with these dispensations might make a good guess at what it says? Peter and Jane married late in life, and it seems that Peter emigrated to the US in 1850, but returned to Ireland, where he inherited his father's farm. His emigration led to him marrying late, and I wondered if the dispensation might offer any more information. Many thanks.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633819#page/24/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633819#page/24/mode/1up)
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I think he is born January
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I think he is born January
Umm, that is the date of the marriage! 19-Jan-1879.
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OP:
Where did Peter reside in the US - city? Catholic diocese?
Was Jane Protestant by any chance?
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Interesting historical document - you don't often encounter an action by a vicar capitular in Ireland.
Column 7
Disp(ensed)
?? McCabe
? Vic(arius) Capitular
Column 8
? ?
Disp. ?? McCabe ?
Vicarius Capitular
Note Paul Cardinal Cullen died in October 1878, and was succeeded as Archbishop of Dublin by Edward, later Cardinal MacCabe, in April 1879. During the interregnum, it would appear that the Most Rev. Dr. MacCabe was Vicar Capitular.
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Peter Kearney was baptised in Kingstown 1822, making him age 57 at marriage. Jane Toole was 55. She was a Catholic from Bray.
Peter Kearney appears in one US Census in 1850, in Northampton, Hampshire, Massachusetts. He is living at the same address as his brother Nicholas Kearney, and Nicholas's wife Sarah. However, he did inherit his father's farm in Shankill by 1870, so was back in Ireland by then. This temporary emigration may be why he married late, but I wondered if the marriage dispensation may have offered a clue to things.
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The observations in column 8 are mainly routine. To the effect that either the banns have been performed three times, or not. If not, there is a dispensation from the vicar general - often abbreviated V.G. The entry for Peter Kearney does not appear to relate to banns, but tells us that the dispensation is from the vicar capitular - which appears to be unique.
The vast majority of marriages have no entry in column 9, which is for "Impedimentum", that is, for actual impediments to a a marriage being performed. There is an entry for column 9 for Peter Kearney, and we can gather that it was a serious one, as it required dispensation at the level of the Archbishop of Dublin. The see being vacant at the time, the task of dispensation fell instead to the vicar capitular for the time being, Dr. MacCabe.
Unfortunately, the reason for the "impedimentum" - given in the first line of column 9 - is obscure, due to the handwriting.
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A suggestion for OP - if this is important, then the best course of action would be to view the original register.
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Peter Kearney was baptised in Kingstown 1787, making him age 57 at marriage. Jane Toole was 55. She was a Catholic from Bray.
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Kingstown didn't exist in 1787, it only came about after the harbour was built near the old village of Dun Leary and the new town was named Kingstown after a Royal visit in 1821. Before the Catholic church was built in the town the parish was much larger and the parish church or chapel was probably the one at Cabinteely.
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Peter Kearney was baptised in Kingstown 1787, making him age 57 at marriage. Jane Toole was 55. She was a Catholic from Bray.
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Kingstown didn't exist in 1787, it only came about after the harbour was built near the old village of Dun Leary and the new town was named Kingstown after a Royal visit in 1821. Before the Catholic church was built in the town the parish was much larger and the parish church or chapel was probably the one at Cabinteely.
There is a sketch of Cabinteely parish at the start of one of the earliest parts of the register
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633805?locale=en#page/4/mode/1up
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There was another Catholic chapel at Crinken also in this older parish - now long gone, right beside the village of Shankill where this Kearney/Carney family lived.
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I think if you cannot get a better copy then placing a request on the Handwriting, Deciphering board here might be a thought.
Expand the entry relating to the dispensation as much as you can. Then attach this and a copy at ordinary/original size of the entry from the register plus a link. I used to have a programme that let me blow up entries to pixel level and often was able to retore 'lost' letters. It is on another computer.
As Wexflyer says it is of significance the level of official who has approved this. This high level may be related to the type of dispensation sought or it might be related to say a friendship between the family/ies of the two getting married with the family of the VG.
The first section of the dispensation seemsm to have a word 'epi' XXXXX
'A Catholic who is marrying a non-Catholic must obtain a dispensation for the marriage to be valid. Without a dispensation, the marriage would be blocked by the mixed-marriage impediment". (from Wiki)
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The first section of the dispensation seems to have a word 'epi' XXXXX
Epi. is an abbreviation for Episcopus - Latin for bishop. Before being appointed as Archbishop of Dublin in 1879, Dr MacCabe was already the auxiliary archbishop, with a titular see as bishop of a location "In Partibus Infidelium" - presumably the location represented by XXXXX.
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There was another Catholic chapel at Crinken also in this older parish - now long gone, right beside the village of Shankill where this Kearney/Carney family lived.
The Catholic chapel at Crinken dated from 1810 to 1837, before being replaced by St.Peter's in Little Bray. In this case, it looks like Cabinteely was probably the chapel used.
*EDIT* I made a mistake, 1822 was Peter's baptism, his father was baptised in 1787, so Crinken could also have been the chapel.
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Thank you all so much for all this. It seems that Peter Kearney required very special dispensation since the Vicar Capitular got involved!
I would love to know why. I cannot find anything about his appearance in the US in 1850, or when he left or returned. All I have is one US Census, and that only because by chance his brother Nicholas is there too.
I wonder if his time in America influenced this, or something else? I haven't found any other marriage.
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Thank you all so much for all this. It seems that Peter Kearney required very special dispensation since the Vicar Capitular got involved!
You have assumed from the start that the issue was on Peter's side. Why?
Couldn't it equally have been on Jane's side?
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Thank you all so much for all this. It seems that Peter Kearney required very special dispensation since the Vicar Capitular got involved!
You have assumed from the start that the issue was on Peter's side. Why?
Couldn't it equally have been on Jane's side?
It could, of course. I have searched for other earlier marriages, but found none. I will keep looking. But thank you so much for your very useful input!
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It could, of course. I have searched for other earlier marriages, but found none. I will keep looking. But thank you so much for your very useful input!
Umm... An existing, previous marriage could not be dispensed with under any circumstance! [Except the Pauline exception, which obviously doesn't apply in this case].
So that is certainly not the issue.
More likely is a close relationship by blood or marriage.
See the following for an extended discussion of impediments,
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/canonical-impediments (https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/canonical-impediments)
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I just Googled Edward McCabe - apparently his parish was Monkstown/Glasthule from 1865-1879, so he was quite local, although the 1879 marriage was in Little Bray.
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*EDIT* I made a mistake, 1822 was Peter's baptism, his father was baptised in 1787, so Crinken could also have been the chapel.
Actually, that probably removes a possible reason for the dispensation. If Peter was born in 1787, then he would have been 91 years old in January, 1879, so capacity for proper consent might have been an issue.
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One thing I noticed about this marriage: the first witness is a regular - that is he appears as a witness on multiple marriages. I can only conceive of that happening where the parties being married did not have family and friends in attendance. Why would that be, given that both parties were local?
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It could, of course. I have searched for other earlier marriages, but found none. I will keep looking. But thank you so much for your very useful input!
Umm... An existing, previous marriage could not be dispensed with under any circumstance! [Except the Pauline exception, which obviously doesn't apply in this case].
So that is certainly not the issue.
More likely is a close relationship by blood or marriage.
See the following for an extended discussion of impediments,
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/canonical-impediments (https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/canonical-impediments)
Yes I was wondering it it was a relational issue. Were they related to each other to the degree that might have needed a dispensation? The other idea was that it was a mixed marriage though earlier on in this thread it says that Jane was also a Catholic. She may well have been a Catholic to those who followed because she 'turned' Catholic to marry but been a protestant before that.
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Jane Toole's parents names are Jacobi and Maria Lacey (I think)
perhaps her mothers name was Toole, so Jane Toole Lacey
or
Jane herself married a Toole so Jane Lacey Toole.
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I am interested in the second marriage record on the attached page from the Catholic Parish Registers at the NLI for Little Bray, no.195, Peter Kearney and Jane Toole.
There is a Dispensation note on columns 7 and 8 which is practically illegible. I wonder if anyone more familiar with these dispensations might make a good guess at what it says? Peter and Jane married late in life, and it seems that Peter emigrated to the US in 1850, but returned to Ireland, where he inherited his father's farm. His emigration led to him marrying late, and I wondered if the dispensation might offer any more information. Many thanks.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633819#page/24/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633819#page/24/mode/1up)
There is a census record in 1850 for Peter Carney, again with Nicholas Carney
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MD9Y-5CL
The census was taken in August 1850 so Peter would have arrived before then.
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Jane Toole's parents names are Jacobi and Maria Lacey (I think)
perhaps her mothers name was Toole, so Jane Toole Lacey
or
Jane herself married a Toole so Jane Lacey Toole.
No, you are misinterpreting the format of the register!
She is named as Joanna Toole, with parents Jacobi & Maria Lacy.
That translates to:
Joanna (Jane?) Toole, with father James Toole & mother Mary Lacy.
The surname of her father is implicit from her surname.
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Thanks. So if she was a widow would the format of the parents names change?
Most of the records I have seen do have the father's and mothers names clearer eg
Jacobi toole and Mary lacey
Here is the link to the civil registration copy and we can see she is a spinster so not married before. Her father's name is given as James.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11057/8045467.pdf
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Thanks. So if she was a widow would the format of the parents names change?
Most of the records I have seen do have the father's and mothers names clearer eg
Jacobi toole and Mary lacey
Here is the link to the civil registration copy and we can see she is a spinster so not married before. Her father's name is given as James.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11057/8045467.pdf
I can see why, if you look at just this particular register entry, you could easily interpret it the way you did - that her father was a Lacy, and that she was a widow of a man named Toole. I initially did the same myself. However, the format of the other entries is conclusive in favor of the alternative interpretation I put forward.
Also, the Christian names are in Latin, so you need to translate Jacobi to James, etc.
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I asked some cousins, and their best guess is that Peter and Jane were somehow related. Peter's grandparents were Nicholas Kearney and Bridget Gorman, married in 1780. Haven't found grandparents for Jane Toole. There were Tooles living at the foot of Carrickgollogan, near the Kearneys, but Jane appears to have come from Bray Town, and there is a James Toole, probably her father, living in a lane off the Main Street.
Another suggestion, grasping at straws: Peter's father, also Peter Kearney (1787-1870) received the lands of some other families who were evicted in 1862 by the notorious evicting landlord Charles Compton Domville. One of those evicted was a Molly Toole, who I am sure was Mary Neill, married to Morgan Toole, probably deceased by the time of the evictions. I wonder was there animosity at Peter Kearney for having received the Toole land? I can't find a likely connection. Morgan Toole had a brother James Toole born in 1806, a little too young to be the father of Jane Toole in 1823, whose sister was born in 1819.
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There might be a cousin connection, but the evidence is slight. Jane's mother Mary Lacey may have been the same Mary Leasy, sponsor at the 1816 baptism of Peter's sister Bridget Kearney. If so, Mary Lacey was probably connected, hence Peter and Jane may have been 2nd cousins. Probably won't find any registers early enough to verify it.