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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: penstemon5 on Monday 21 October 24 21:50 BST (UK)
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Can anyone look up if there was a plane crash near Le Grand Luce? There are 4 unidentified graves in the cemetery at Le Grand Luce, 3 of whom were RAF ORs. Money was given to locals to bury them as the allied hospital was evacuating
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Cemetery Search 1940 RAF
On Schedule 1
Two RAF on 6th May 1940,
No. 88 Sqn.
Sgt Norman Frederick Fiddler Giddings 564658, 26 yrs.
LAC Cyril James Goddard 551885, 19 yrs.
Crashed near Grand Luce (Sarthe), 23 km SE of Le Mans, France
One RAF on 23rd May 1940
No Unit given
Harry Lawton, 636183, 22 yrs.
"There are There are 42 Commonwealth burials of the 1939-45 war here, 4 of which are unidentified."
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6th May 1940
No. 88 Squadron
Aircraft type - Battle Mk I.
Sgt N F F Giddings
LAC C J Goddard
Training
Aircraft RH-
Aircraft letter not given when published by Bill Chorley 1992.
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Can anyone look up if there was a plane crash near Le Grand Luce? There are 4 unidentified graves in the cemetery at Le Grand Luce, 3 of whom were RAF ORs. Money was given to locals to bury them as the allied hospital was evacuating
Only 4 are listed unidentified at the Cemetery.
Row C
However, three of those unidentified in June 1940 were officially recorded as British Soldiers on Schedule No. 4, Grave No. 12, 15 & 16, with one of those identified as Royal Artillery Grave No. 12, buried at Le Grand Luce (Sarthe).
"Graves 13 and 14 are Vacant"
"N C" written in pencil, against two Unknown British Soldiers June 1940 for their Unit, Graves No. 15 & 16.
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Graves 1 to 9 in Row C (on Schedule 3) are all identified RAF who died 1946, 525 Sqn and Row C, Graves 10 & 11, on (Schedule No. 4).
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Where did you get the info from re locals being given money to bury them.
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The other Unknown British Soldier 1940, is listed on Schedule No. 2, in Row B, Grave 2.
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My late wife’s grandfather Signalman Edmund Roberts died in France on 13th June 1940. Until recently we had no knowledge of where he died or where he was buried. It was always assumed he died at Dunkirk. His only memorial is his name on the columns at Dunkirk cemetery.
I established that he died in General Hospital No: 9 which was at Le Grand Luce on that date. I researched the records for General Hospital No:9 held at National Archives – specifically WO.222-719, which is mostly the accounts of nurses regarding the evacuation of the hospital to England, but does include some brief notes by the Commanding Surgeon, and WO.177-1170 which diary pages for each day. WO.177-1170 does include some names of patients who died in hospital or were received, deceased, into the mortuary attached to the hospital. I was able to reconcile many names from the hospital records to the names in the CWGC cemetery at Le Grand Luce. In communication with CWGC they have conceded that the grave at Row B No: 2 is likely to be that of Major R. Cooper-White. His body was received into the mortuary on 12th June along with that of Pte Allison, who is buried in Row B No: 1. The hospital records state “the former (Cooper-White) appears to have shot himself, latter (Allison) was electrocuted.” The graves were exhumed in 1946. The CWGC stated:-
You have clearly located some very detailed records for the casualties admitted to 9 General Hospital at Le Grand Luce in June 1940, which certainly provides evidence that Signalman Roberts was likely buried nearby. I have checked the records we hold for the four unidentified graves in what is now Le Grand-Luce War Cemetery, which were prepared in Sept 1946. It clear from those that, as you have ascertained from your own research, the hospital was evacuated with no time to finalise arrangements. Our records speculate that the local people may have buried the final few casualties after the hospital staff had departed. Sadly due to the environmental conditions in the cemetery when they were examined in 1946, it proved impossible to find any evidence as to the identity of four of those found buried there. The cases were closed in 1952-3.
In the intervening decades we now have limited opportunities to revisit such investigations - you will find more information on Identification Cases at War Commemorations: Commonwealth Casualties | CWGC
Our exhumation records are limited and remain confidential but we do have reports for the four graves in question. I've checked each one on your behalf and made a little progress:
One casualty had some uniform items including buttons, which allowed the authorities to confirm the casualty had been serving with the Royal Artillery, hence we can exclude him as being Edmund.
• I'm afraid that two other others were found in an extremely poor condition and without any items, uniform or insignia at all. Neither are recorded as having the injuries that Edmund is reported to have suffered from, which were distinctive and might have helped with identification. However, because of their condition they may not have been visible. However, we do have information about the dental condition of both men. It is rare for dental records to survive in the service files of Second World War casualties but if you have any information at all, either from family sources or indeed his service records, then we could see if there is any chance of comparing them against the exhumation report.
• The fourth casualty is certainly not Edmund, but an initial review of the exhumation reports suggests a potential match to the details you have discovered for Major White-Cooper.
I would be most grateful if you could share with us the documents you have for all the casualties. Having the full picture of who was admitted to the hospital and when would certainly help us to see if we can make any progress with any of the graves.
Edmund Roberts is not named in the hospital records, but each day the hospital diary included a table of casualties. The table for 13th June 1940 shows 1 Army OR died that day. If the CWGC records are correct, and it is assumed that Edmund Roberts was placed in one of the “Unknown” graves that still leaves 1 “Unknown” grave unaccounted for and the 2 plots CWGC say are vacant. Photographs of the cemetery taken in 1946, at the time of the burial of those from 525 Squadron, clearly show crosses on the “vacant” plots. No markers are on those vacant plots now.
The hospital records of 15th June show that it was evacuated back to England. It is assumed there was insufficient time to properly administer and record Edmund’s burial, and that such arrangements were left to the local people.
The hospital records (WO.177-1170) for 14th June record:-
“During the day the bodies of 3 RAF OR were brought in at about 21.15 hours & placed in the mortuary. Arrangements for their burial by the local ….(unsure word)… were made late that night & money to cover the cost of coffins & burial. Two of these were identified & one unknown”.
If these 3 RAF OR’s were included, along with Edmund Roberts, the body count would tally with the number of graves in the cemetery at Le Grand Luce, including the vacant plots.
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The third menber of the crew Sgt G. W. Acock (Observer) survived the crash and was admitted to hospital dangerously ill.
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Cemetery Search 1940 RAF
On Schedule 1
Two RAF on 6th May 1940,
No. 88 Sqn.
Sgt Norman Frederick Fiddler Giddings 564658, 26 yrs.
LAC Cyril James Goddard 551885, 19 yrs.
Crashed near Grand Luce (Sarthe), 23 km SE of Le Mans, France
One RAF on 23rd May 1940
No Unit given
Harry Lawton, 636183, 22 yrs.
"There are There are 42 Commonwealth burials of the 1939-45 war here, 4 of which are unidentified."
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6th May 1940
No. 88 Squadron
Aircraft type - Battle Mk I.
Sgt N F F Giddings
LAC C J Goddard
Training
Aircraft RH-
Aircraft letter not given when published by Bill Chorley 1992.
The third menber of the crew Sgt G. W. Acock (Observer) survived the crash and was admitted to hospital dangerously ill.
We can match Sgt Acock and the two No.88 Squadron Aircrew to the Battle aircraft L5243, which took off at 1125 on a Fuel Consumption Test and crashed South-east of Laval at about 1550 hours on 6th May 1940.
The Route to be taken was also given in letter, by Low Flying Area No.1 and thence by corridor to Low Flying Area No.2 to Chateau Gontier and back by the same route.
Some Routeing /Routing documents with maps S.D. 158 / SD158 and these for 1940 are in AIR 10.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=SD158&_cr=AIR%2010&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv
Seven other AIR Routeing files for 1940
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=Routeing&_cr=AIR&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv
Including one A.A.S.F. over French Territory 1940 in AIR 35/86
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2458509
The letter from No.88 Squadron RAF to No.75 Wing RAF, letter reference 88S/21/9/AIR and dated 12th May 1940 (which appears to have come from the Casualty File in AIR 81 at TNA, Kew) mentions the reference to No. 9 General Hospital in this No. 88 Squadron letter.
The accident investigation came under the B.A.F.F., according to the same letter.
General Hospital No: 9 also mentioned in John Hawthorn reply.
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Do you have a report of an air crash?
They were bombing the retreating RAF too.
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The retreating RAF at nearby Sougé (about 19 miles away) on the 14 & 15 June 1940 were being bombed.
103 Squadron
AIR 27/813/15
There is a reference to No.12 Squadron and No.226 Squadron.
Arrived at Sougé 12 Battle & 2 Magister aircraft.
14th June 1940 bombed.
15th June 1940 bombed again.
Casualties were placed into ambulances and orders given for their evacuation to the nearest civil hospital. Those killed were buried.
Sgt Bone, wounded.
AIR 27/818
At Folio 132
Believe four killed and six injured on the 15th June 1940 and apart from Sgt Bone, wounded, only one of the four killed was named as Sgt Dowling.
Because RAF Squadrons and Units were on the move, they were unable to ascertain those situated at Sougé.
CWGC
Sgt Dowling was buried at Sougé-sur-Braye.
There are three others named as lost on 15th June 1940.
No 226 Squadron
No. 226 Squadron were at Faux Villecerf in May 1940 and some sources say Sougé for June 1940. However, their ORB referring to the evacuation of France says the last aerodrome occupied by the Squadron was at Arting [probably Artins Landing Ground] and on the night of Friday 14th June 1940 an order to move immediately to Rennes.
AIR 27/1406/9
Says all the records of the Squadron were left behind and their historical record briefly put together after.
AIR 27/1408
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penstemon5, if you 'Sign in' for free you can download the relevant Squadron ORBs covering the month of June 1940 ...
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search
Exact Word or ... search box e.g. 226 Squadron
AIR 27 in the Any of these References box.
Dates 1940 in both.
Or you can put the full AIR catalogue reference given, straight into the Any of these References box.
There are some files in AIR 35 dealing with France in 1940
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=AIR%2035&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv
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My late wife's grandfather Signalman Edmund Roberts died in France on 13th June 1940. Until recently we had no knowledge of where he died or where he was buried. It was always assumed he died at Dunkirk. His only memorial is his name on the columns at Dunkirk cemetery.
John, first of all, welcome to the forum. And secondly, I'm sorry that no-one has so far acknowledged your posting. Clearly your research is relevant to the main subject of this thread.
I assume that your wife's grandfather was 2572212 Sig Edmund Roberts, born 1912 in Northumberland and living in Essex prior to joining the Army.
Have you contacted the MOD for a copy of his service record? I can't imagine that you haven't, given the amount of research you've done so far, but if not that might provide some additional details of the unit he was serving with at the time of his death. I note that there is no casualty report for him, but there are two for a 2575457 Sig EG Roberts R SIGNALS serving with 53 Div Sigs and attached to the Royal Artillery. He was reported as wounded and prisoner of war in Cas Report No 283, and then in Cas Report No 560, as having died of wounds while a prisoner of war on 7 Aug 1940. I assume this is just a bizarre coincidence.
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Thank you for all this information. It appears that after such extensive record searching, there is no record of a plane crashing on the 13/14 June, to account for the 3 RAF ORs whose bodies were brought to the field hospital in the evening of 14 June.
This may then mean that they were ground crew or there is no record of the crash.
It may be a naive question, but when things were so fraught as the Germans were advancing, were bodies always recovered quickly? Could the bodies have been from an earlier crash?
Thanks for the detailed pointers to records which I need some time to absorb.
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My reply 7 to John's very detailed reply 5 was too brief, regarding his search for Signalman Edmund Roberts who died 13th June 1940.
Quote from John
I researched the records for General Hospital No:9 held at National Archives – specifically WO.222-719
WO 222/719
Reports and Returns.
General Hospitals.
9 Gen. Hosp.
1939 Sept.-1940 May
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2695865
John also mentioned WO.177-1170
WO 177/1170
13 Gen. Hosp.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2737467
John has kindly mentioned these file numbers possibly from notes made, whilst looking for someone else?
Without looking at the files I don't think you can say who two of those RAF identified were, as they might have been named in the Hospital file?
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There are also three 1940 search returns for
9 Gen. Hosp
Under the WO Reference
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=9%20Gen.%20Hosp&_ep=Gen.%20Hosp&_cr=WO&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv
WO 177/1147
1940 Jan.- Dec.
WO 222/719
1939 Sept.-1940 May
WO 222/720
1939 Dec.-1944 Sept.
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According to claims on a website (which has a warning triangle) so not copying & pasting.
No. 9 British General Hospital
Whilst at Le Grande Luce until 16th June 1940.
Seemed to have a detachment at Pacy.
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Thanks. Another avenue to investigate!
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Not checked 1940 Squadron ORBs so these RAF aircraft are unconfirmed, but reputed to be linked to the Low Countries / France.
13 June, 142 Sqn, Battle.
13 June, 82 Sqn, Blenheim.
14 June, 226, Battle.
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Added:
12 Squadron
14 June, Battle L5383
Sgt R J Willcox, Sgt J Hislop, Sgt G H Emery, crashed during operational flight at Pacy-sur-Eure, France.
21 Squadron
14 June, Blenheim Mk IV.
Seems to say two aircraft (note the Serial numbers of the aircraft are missing their letter prefix).
3742, P/O Saunders ; Sgt Eden ; Sgt Webb - Fate unknown.
88 Squadron
13 June, Sgt Haywood ; Sgt Jones, shot down and both admitted to SENS Hospital.
103 Squadron
14 June, Sgt Brumby ; Sgt Hedley ; LAC Werner.
Shot down in an Orchard, near
Laval.
RAF Squadrons mentioned in France in 1940
1 ; 12 ; 21; 73 ; 88 ; 98 ; 103 ; 226 ; 242.
9 ; 17 ; 40 ; 150 ; 501 (from internet)
From memory 114 or 116 in an ORB?
As you go through the ORBs, note any
other Sqns mentioned.
67 Wing and 76 Wing are mentioned in Squadron ORBs whilst in France in 1940
67 Wing
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4097480
There are some references to Wing, Aircraft BAAF AASF some telephone Logs, etc., in files in AIR 35
RAF Wing ORBs are usually in AIR 26
Don't forget the Army and RNAS (Royal Naval Air Service) have aircraft too and their own back-up staff.
A lot of personnel evacuating went by road and once evacuating the aircraft they flew back, would have been in front.
The Service Record, or correspondence sent after the loss occurred will have reference to Units.
My Grandfather's RAF Certificate of Discharge (sent about 3 months after his death in WW 2), has the Units he was attached to, with dates.
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These cover the RAF Casualty Files released into AIR 81 so far for 13 June 1940
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=13%20June%201940&_cr=AIR%2081&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv
14 June
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=14%20June%201940&_cr=AIR%2081&_dss=range&_sd=1940&_ed=1940&_ro=any&_st=adv
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Thank you for all your attention. Pentemon5 originally posted this thread on my behalf. My prime objective is to identify the grave of Signalman Edmund Roberts, who died 13th June 1940 in General Hospital No: 9, which was in Le Grand Luce. The detachment hospital at Pacy Sur Eure had evacuated to Le Grand Luce by 10th June 1940. The hospital evacuated to UK on 15th June 1940. My focus is the graves of unknown servicemen (including the vacant plots) in Le Grand Luce CWGC cemetery.
At present I can only narrow down to the likely plot(s) Edmund is buried in by process of deduction and elimination. I attach my diagram of the graves with footnotes. The key document I rely on (although not the only one) is at National Archives WO.117-1147, which has diary pages for the hospital. Many of the men buried in the cemetery are named in those hospital records.
Previous communication with CWGC included some detail about the exhumation of the graves of unknown servicemen, which took place in 1946. The CWGC described Row C 14 & 15 as vacant plots. After viewing WO.117-1147 I was in contention with CWGC as to whether they should be vacant. My body count from WO.117-1147 matched the number of grave plots (including vacant ones). This included Sgn. E. Roberts and three RAF OR's brought into the mortuary on 14th June. Also photographs taken at the time of the burial of the 11 airmen in 1946 clearly show crosses on the “vacant” graves, although there are no markers today. CWGC tally is that there are four graves of Unknown servicemen and two vacant plots. Hospital diary says that two of the RAF OR's brought in on 14th June were identified (but not named in the record) and one was unidentified.
The CWGC said that the body in Row B. 2 had injuries that would be consistent with those likely Major Cooper-White had received; and, that the body in Row C. 12 was buried with a button from the uniform of the Royal Artillery. So, I have eliminated those graves from being Sgn. E. Robert’s resting place. But there was not only Sgn. E. Roberts, but also 3 RAF OR’s to find. We now have 2 “Unknown” graves and 2 vacant plots. A coincidence? No.
I am disappointed to say that only on Monday 28th October the CWGC informed me for the first time “we know that two airmen who were initially buried there, were later removed to be re-buried with other members of their crew. This is the reason for the documentation describing the graves as vacant and the gap in the headstones which you can see today”.
So, that leaves only two graves in consideration; and it is almost certain one is that of Sgn. E. Roberts and the other is that of the unidentified RAF OR brought into the mortuary on 14th June. If three RAF OR’s were brought in together what is the likelihood they were together when they died? Did the CWGC move two to be with the rest of their crew in another place because they could be identified. If the third was not identified there would have been the risk that it was Sgn. E. Robert’s remains they moved. But if two RAF OR’s were identified, and the three had been together, is it not possible to hazard who the third is by process of elimination? At present I am confident that Edmund Roberts in is one of the two graves. I would like to think that some effort could be made to identify the unknown airman in the other one. Somewhere a family may be researching a similar trail to the one I am on. The CWGC did not give me the names/details of the RAF OR’s they moved. Carole W – you asked how I knew money was given to the locals to bury them. It is detailed in WO.117-1147 date 14th June, attached.
Again thank you all for your efforts. The research will continue.
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Sorry I cannot get any attachments to load to the thread.
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A new attempt to post my diagram of the graves at Le Grand Luce.
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I have been advised that this method should provide a link to the WO.117-1147 diary pages of General Hospital 9 - dates 12th - 15 June 1940, which I referred to in my post above.
https://imgur.com/a/EipOeWX
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Hello John
The original IWGC Crosses had the crew names on, that we have for an RAF burial in England in 1940.
In the pdf you attached ...
Graves showing cross markers in photo taken at burial of RAF crew 30/01/1946
I think you are saying two identified RAF OR (other Ranks) were moved and one unidentified you feel might still be buried at Le Grand Luce and you want to know who the identified were?
Not sure if any of those cover your loss, or if all Casualty Lists are on the catalogue?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=Casualty%20List&_ep=Casualty&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1950&_ro=any&_st=adv
Missing Personnel investigations went on after WW 2.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=Missing&_ep=Missing%20Personnel&_dss=range&_sd=1939&_ed=1960&_ro=any&_st=adv
I would be inclined to contact a Local Research Society / Museum, over the years some have appeared TV?
What does it say in the records sent to your family and Service Record?
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Bushinn1746 - Many thanks for your post. To reiterate:- my objective is to find the grave of Signalman Edmund Roberts (Service No:- 2572212). A number of records confirm that he died in General Hospital N0: 9 on 13th June 1940 from gunshot wounds.He was a Despatch Rider. He suffered g/s wounds to both legs and was amputated before he died. We speculate that he might have been strafed by enemy plane. My research confirms that one Army OR died in hospital 13th June and 3 RAF OR were brought into the mortuary on 14th June. With regards to the RAF personnel the records say that arrangements were made for the locals to bury them as the hospital was evacuating. This is almost certainly the case with regard to Edmund Roberts as well. Until recently I believed the 2 "vacant" graves and the two "Unknown" graves would account for the four in the hospital records. Therefore, I believed Edmund Roberts could be in one of four plots. Last week I learnt for the first time that the "vacant" plots HAD contained RAF personnel, but their bodies had been removed to be buried along with the rest of their crew. CWGC did not give me any further details (no names, no new burial site). Do I understand from your post you do have these details. In some respects the new information does move me forward a small step. I can eliminate the two "vacant" plots as being Edmund Roberts resting place. This leaves a conclusion that of the two remaining "Unknown" graves one is Edmund and the other the third RAF OR brought into the mortuary on 14th June. What is the likelihood a family is searching for a missing RAF OR who was in fact from the same crew as the two RAF OR who were moved? AS that person was unidentified, as was Edmund, they would not know which body to move IF they knew that three RAF OR's were once together.
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The Chateau du Grand-Luce (now a luxury hotel), following a direct approach by e-mail, have provided the attached copy of a page from a book "Les Jardins du Luce" by Pierrick Bourgault. I am advised that part translates to "on a night in June the Germans arrived and took away lots of medical equipment and the municipality was charged with burying the dead who had been left behind". Copy of page attached.
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John, I appreciate that the original purpose of this thread was to find more details of the RAF aircrew and how they came to die. But since Signalman Roberts's story seems to be inextricably tied to their deaths, or at least their burials, it seems to me to be sensible not to split the thread at this stage.
I am confused as to why Sig Roberts's remains are so hard to identify. If he had both legs amputated, his remains would be very different to the unknown airman, whose body was presumably fairly intact at the time of his death. I appreciate that you may have no more knowledge about this aspect than I do, but surely when Roberts was buried he should have still had his dog tags on his body, since he had already be admitted to hospital. Even given the haste in which the British medical staff had to leave, I can't believe that adequate identification was not left with the bodies. I am convinced that the CWGC can and should do more to positively identify Roberts, and by extension the remains of the missing airman, and mark their respective last resting places in a fitting manner.
Added. I agree with your translation of the relevant passage from the book.
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AndyJ2022 - Thank you. It is not my intention to suggest splitting the thread, merely to emphasise that it is in my interests to research the fate of the three RAF OR airmen as their resting places seems to be so closely linked to that of Sig. Edmund Roberts. I realise that I made a typing mistake; Edmund had ONE leg amputated. Which I would have thought still significant, but CWGC said that at the exhumation the bodies were very badly decomposed. ID tags??? I would have expected these to have been found. One "unknown" body in the cemetery was eliminated from my enquiry because a Royal Artillery button was found, again no ID tag?. Presumably this poor sole was killed and brought to the mortuary, then buried in his uniform. Whereas, Sig. Edmund Roberts had been in hospital for two weeks before his death and will presumably be in hospital gowns. He was originally in Hospital No:13 before being transferred to hospital No:9. So I would imagine his uniform would not have been with him. Who knows what state the unidentified RAF OR was in when admitted to the mortuary? I will keep plugging to establish who and where re resting places for both.
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Hello John
The only information about the burials I had was from the CWGC website.
Lincolnshire Echo, 15 September 1988 published this appeal ...
DO you have a friend or relative buried in a war grave in the village of Le Grand Luce near Le Mans in France?
If so then a group of people from Cherry Willingham would be only too pleased to put a wreath on the grave when they go there next month.
Or they will even take a photograph of the grave for you.
....
We don't put names of those alive online.
See pm.
https://cherrywillingham.parish.lincolnshire.gov.uk/council-business/2024-fundraising-sub-committee-minutes/5
Someone of that name looks to have an active public role in village life according to the Parish Council website link.
They would likely have had some public and official Council contacts there at Le Grand Luce 36 years ago, possibly even Associations made contact with the English village?
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I would be trying to track down that Author by writing to the Publisher (with a letter they can forward), if no public details about the author are available.
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I wonder if this Museum can offer any contacts, there are local people about who are interested in War events and losses
The Musée des Blindés
1043 Rte de Fontevraud,
49400 Saumur
France
Tank museum located in the Loire Valley of France, in the town of Saumur.
https://museedesblindes.fr/
Not sure if they have an Aviation Archive?
Paris Airport – Le Bourget
3, Air and Space esplanade
BP 173 – 93352 Le Bourget CEDEX
https://www.museeairespace.fr/en/collections/
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Hello John
... 3 RAF OR were brought in at about 21.15 hours ...
Arrangements for their burial by the Local Curi were made ...
Burial was by the Local Curi or Curé
This would be a Local Official, esp., Church Official and Undertaker to supply coffins.
Contact the Village Church. I would have thought the burials would be recorded in the Register of the church of the person officiating at the funeral?
And
Contact the local Le Grand Luce Catholic Church for their Burial records? I think the Catholic area / Diocese Office might be Le Mans?
Church of St. Facil and St. Aurelia
The Grand-Lucé, Sarthe, Pays-de-la-Loire , France
https://gcatholic.org/churches/france/54583.htm
A local Undertaker would have supplied the coffins and they might still be in business?
An Example of a curi or curé
In most French country villages you will find a village church although attendance is less regular than before. In our village the local curé or priest runs a rota and conducts a service in one of four different churches each Sunday
CWGC by Cemetery
https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/2090501/le-grand-luce-war-cemetery/
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Andy J2022 I thought you would like to know that there has been significant progress on the search for Edmund Roberts grave. Recap: He died 13 June 1940 in the Gen. Hospital No:9 at Le Grand Luce. There are 4 unidentified graves and 2 vacant plots in the CWGC cemetery at Le Gran Luce. The hospital records said that 3 RAF OR were brought into the mortuary late on 14 June - 2 identified & 1 unknown. I had already establishe that 1 unidentified grave was almost certainly Major Richard Cooper-White; 1 was Edmund Roberts; & 1 contained a button from the uniform of the Royal Atillery. I contended with CWGC that the body count from hospital records correlated to the number of the graves in the cemetery, including the RAF OR's. They responded that 2 RAF OR's were exhumed and relocated with their other crew colleagues elsewhere (no names, squadren or details provided despite my request for these). So we now had 2 unidentified graves and 2 people, Edmund Roberts and the unidentified RAF OR. I have now been informed that the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre (JCCC) have accepted that Major Cooper-White is in a specific grave; that Gunner Joseph Humphries is in the grave where the Royal Artillery button was found; that Edmund Roberts is in 1 of the 2 other graves; and, Private William Falconer (service number 2976134 - Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders) is in the other. There will be a rededication ceremoney on 24 June 2025, at the cemetery in Le Grand Luce, to confirm this. I and a few other family members will be there. I have tried to engage with the Royal Signals Museum to see if they are interested, but have had absolutely no response. I have not been able to square off the hospital records suggesting the third, unidentified RAF OR with the JCCC establishing it is Private William Falconer in the 4th grave. Interestingly he appeared in casualty list 236 as "died" and again in casualty list 352 corrected to "died as a result of an accident 14 June 1940".
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Hi John,
Thanks for the update. I'm pleased you have finally solved this problem. Very disappointing that you haven't received a response from the Royal Signals. Rather than the Museum, I would suggest contacting the Secretary (Col (Retd) D A Craft) of the Royal Signals Association: rsa@royalsignals.org Office Tel: 01258 482130 or 0300 1632365
You will probably receive a reply from the Assistant Secretary, Lt Col (Retd) SM Lockwood.
I feel sure he will arrange for the Corps to be represented at the re-dedication ceremony.
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Andy - Many thanks
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I have contacted the Joint Casualty & Compassionate Centre regarding the matter as to whether Edmund's regiment, Royal Corps Of Signals, were aware of the Rededication Service and received this response:-
"I have been in contact with The Royal Corps of Signals. The service will be attended by 2 of their soldiers, a Padre from The Royal Regiment of Artillery, a trumpeter from The Royal Welsh and a soldier from The Royal Armoured Corps. We have 7 soldiers we will be holding rededication services for that week, 4 at Le Grand-Luce and 3 in Normandy. These regiments represent nearly all of the regiments who the soldiers we are commemorated belonged to."
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That's a bit disappointing. I'm sure there would be no shortage of volunteers to go and represent their Corps.
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Superb detective work, very well done.
Enthusiasts succeed where officialdom was too lazy - and no I don't mean CWGC, that honour should remain with MOD Historical branches, and an honour it is to try, yet alone succeed. A duty which should not go away while lads lie unidentified.
Wonderful work by gifted researchers.
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With regard to the Dedication Service of the four graves, as yet, with no names; I have now found out from Joint Compassion and Casualty Centre (JCCC of the MOD) that there will be representatives of Edmund Roberts' regiment, Royal Corps of Signals, in attendance, among others. 6 members of Edmunds family will also be there, including 1 grandson, 2 great grand children and 1 great great grandson. Edmund died in the Chateau at Le Grand Luce, which was being used as a military hospital at the time, 48 hours before the Germans arrived - the hospital having been evacuated. I hope that we might be able to visit the place he actually died. However, it is a very, very exclusive hotel (and very expensive). And of course it will not look anything like it did in 1940.
I had not previously heard of the JCCC. Clearly they do a lot of marvellous work researching and finding lost fallen heros.