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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: haney on Monday 21 October 24 01:42 BST (UK)

Title: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Monday 21 October 24 01:42 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone
    I am trying to find more information on my ancestors in Kincardinshire.  John CHARLES and Margaret CADENHEAD who were married July 14 Kinneff and Catterline.  John was from the Parish of GARVOCK and Margaret was in the Parish of Kineff and Catterline.

3 Children found for the above couple

1)  ALEXANDER CHARLES b June 7, 1787 at Mill of Garvock
3) JAMES CHARLES b December 6, 1789 at Mill of Garvock
2)  JANE CHARLES b April, 24, 1791 at Mill of Garvock

I am descended from James Charles who ended up in Woodend Farnell from 1812.  He died at a ripe old age of 91.

I do not have any other records for either John CHARLES OR Margaret CADENHEAD. No deaths seem to be recorded for them in Garvock,  could have moved though of course or their deaths occured near by/buried in an ajoining county/town etc.

I am hoping to expand on both ALEXANDER and/or JANE CHARLES to see if they may have married/1841 Census etc.

I'm also very interested in this MILL OF GARVOCK.  Perhaps the Charles' worked there!  Could have been a private property owned by ???  Any help adding some possible information would be most appreciated.  Kindest regards Dianna from Aus
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: ColC on Tuesday 22 October 24 18:31 BST (UK)
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk


JOHN CHARLES to MARGARET CADENHEAD
14/07/1786 Kinneff and Catterline

Garvock church deaths are listed on SP 1732 – 1853, however no deaths recorded for the family.
They may have moved to a parish where no deaths were recorded but I do not see a likely death for John or Margaret in the County.

There a 3 possible marriages for Alexander in Scotland but all quite distant from Garvock, no deaths that I can see in Scotland, 1841/1851 census?


JANE CHARLES to DAVID CRAIG, possible marriage 19/02/1814 Bervie

Bervie, Kincardineshire is 4 miles E of Garvock, Kincardineshire 

One baptism in the County. None elsewhere in Scotland. No death records Bervie 1700-1855, no 1841/1851 census?

ELIZABETH CRAIG parents DAVID CRAIG/JANE CHARLES 10/11/1816 Bervie

Colin
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 23 October 24 01:22 BST (UK)
Hi Colin
   I just replied to your reply and it disappeared.  Anway many thanks for your input and I will follow up on this.  Kindest regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: ColC on Wednesday 23 October 24 11:11 BST (UK)
There is this John Charles at Garvock, his parents marriage below. I doubt he is your John he would likely be a little too young. (about 16 when married)?
However there may be a link but John appears to be their only son.

Marriage: JOHN CHARLES to CHRISTIAN JAMIE 6/11/1762 Benholm
Banns read at Garvock 30/09/1762

Baptism: JOHN CHARLES 30/01/1770 Garvock
JOHN CHARLES/CHRISTIAN JAMIE

He appears on the 1841 – 1861 census returns at Garvock the 51/61 state born there, the Eliza/Elizabeth about the same age is a Servant. You would need to look at the original on SP to see his marital status, if any.

Valuation Rolls 1855/1865

JOHN CHARLES REVEREND Proprietor/Occupier GARVOCK
PARISH MANSE GARDEN AND GLEBE LANDS OF ARBUTHNOTT

Death: JOHN CHARLES age 98 mother JAMIE 1868 Abode Garvock

Will: John Charles 14 / 5 / 1869
Revd, minister of the parish of Garvock at the Manse of Garvock
Stonehaven Sheriff Court

Regards Colin
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 23 October 24 20:20 BST (UK)
Hi Col
   Thanks for that.  Its difficult isn't it!!  I know of that John CHARLES the reverend, I did a lot of research on him decades ago as I thought he was part of my group.

He was not married I believe.  There is quite a bit on him in the Kirk sessions though, doesn't help with any connections.

I thought he had a sister Mary???  I did not pursue that line as I did not think it connected with my lot.

I will look at the Alexander Charles marriage you found (3) to see if I get anywhere

Also with JANE CHARLES/DAVID CRAIG.  Her name is spelt JEAN as well for a couple of baptisms.

I think I had a lead on them years ago in England?? from memory possibly!  Somewhere in Kent perhaps.  Anyway will carry on and see where it all leads (if anywhere) thanks so much for your time.  Regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 23 October 24 20:43 BST (UK)
Hi Again
  One day I will go through the Garvock Kirk sessions!  Will be a task but it is on my list just to see if any of the family are mentioned there possibly or just out of interest I guess.

I did find one Mort cloth for this particular John Charles in 1745 in Sootie Walls.

Wish I could just go over there to Scotland myself to look around LOL.  Many thanks Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: David Nicoll on Wednesday 23 October 24 22:17 BST (UK)
Hi, Ancestry has an Alexander born about 1786 dies about 1853 in Aberdeen burial 7 Dec 1853.
Allegedly Extracted Parish records, but not in SP unless mort cloth or misindexed.
They of course could be anywhere in the world! 1800’s is the start of the Scottish exodus, or he could have joined the army.
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 23 October 24 22:24 BST (UK)
Hi David
  Thanks for that!  I will try and follow up on this as I would really love to find some others in my group.  So this record you found was on Ancestry!!

  It pays to look everywhere doesn't it not just SP.  Yes of course they could have ended up anywhere with all the Clearances etc.

I am just starting to read the Scottish Clearances now.  Will be interesting I think.  Thanks very much for your input.  Regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 23 October 24 22:46 BST (UK)
Hi again David
   What I may need to find is a death certificate for this Alexander Charles who died in 1853, if one exists of course.  May contact the archives too in Aberdeen to check any details.  Such a long process isn't it.

 Thanks Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 24 October 24 00:07 BST (UK)
   What I may need to find is a death certificate for this Alexander Charles who died in 1853, if one exists of course. 

1853 is before civil registration in Scotland, so death certificate will not exist.

I think this is probably the record that was referred to by David ....

Nellfield Cemetery: Lair Register
Lair 1082

Alex Charles 7 Dec 1853   Age 76
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Thursday 24 October 24 00:18 BST (UK)
Hi Neale 1961
  Thank you!  I should have remembered that re civil registration.  Such a shame I may have been able to eliminate him.  He should still have been on two census! 1841 and 1851.

Perhaps is Gavock was mentioned as his birth place on the 1851! That would be something I guess.

Grateful for the help.  Kindest regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: David Nicoll on Thursday 24 October 24 07:37 BST (UK)
Neale1961,

    Thanks, I had not got that far. I wondered if it was something like that given it gave burial date.

@Haney, not necessarily “The Clearences” a lot of people left for a better life, the Scottish population increased fairly rapidly at this time and there was more opportunity overseas.

The are also unindexed and very badly misindexed records on SP. It may be worth having a trawl.
SP found one for me that was on Ancestry, but Fletcher had been turned in to a Germanic name somehow in SP. I don’t think I would ever have found it!
Being fixed now!
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: ColC on Thursday 24 October 24 11:14 BST (UK)
This looks likely to be the Alexander who died in 1853, no record on SP 1851 – 1861, might be worth contacting SP to check if necessary.

Marriage.
ALEXANDER CHARLES to ISABELLA FINDLAY 5/02/1831 Aberdeen.

1851 Hutcheon Street,  West Parish,  Aberdeen
Alexander CHARLES Head 71 Mason born Aberdeen
Isabella CHARLES Wife 65 Aberdeen

1861 Hutcheon Street,  West Parish,  Aberdeen
Ann PIRIE Head W 81 Aberdeen - 1 room

Isaballa CHARLES W 75 Aberdeen

The nearest baptism in Scotland to the age at burial in 1853 and 1851 census is Alexander at Garvock.

Colin
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: ColC on Thursday 24 October 24 12:04 BST (UK)
1851 Mill Of Garvock, Kincardineshire
Michael FARRELL Head M 36 Sheep farm Factor For Proptrix England
385 Arable Acres 300 Waste Employs 12 Men
He is there with his wife and two servants. See the 1881 census in Garvock,
still in the area but not the Mill.

Valuation Rolls on SP 1855-1940 - 
Location: Davo Mains; Garvock; KINCARDINESHIRE.

MRS FARRELL Proprietor FARM MILL OF GARVOCK LANDS OF DAVO GARVOCK 1855

MICHAEL FARRELL ESQUIRE Proprietor
FARM OF MILL OF GARVOCK LANDS OF DAVO GARVOCK 1865/1875/1876

JAMES ROBERTSON Tenant/Occupier FARM OF MILL OF GARVOCK LANDS OF DAVO
GARVOCK 1865/1875/1876

Still listed on the Valuation Rolls until the last Roll in 1940. More information to the present time on Google.

Colin
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Saturday 26 October 24 21:13 BST (UK)
Hi Col
    Thanks very much for the information on Mill of Garvock also for the Alexander Charles who it seems was actually born in Aberdeen!  So most probably not mine.

Some where down the track I will do some more research on the family of course as suggested previously a lot of them may have emigrated as my Alexander Charles did in 1854.

Coincidentally he was a Stonemason as was the Alexander you discovered in Aberdeen.

Anyway the search will continue and many thanks for your time.  Kindest regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: David Nicoll on Monday 28 October 24 22:58 GMT (UK)
Dianna,

     A couple of things to bear in mind.
     Place of birth may not be place of baptism.
     At Mill of Garvock suggest he was working there, they could have moved, you have to be a bit flexible some times.
     I use Ancestry quite a lot to do suggestions and then fact check, you could use any of the sites in a similar way. I have found quite a lot of people in places I would not expect, Minister from near Carlisle, England getting married in Dundee, Scotland. But it was definitely him, was recorded as such.
   Have you tried building a tree back from them? There seem to be a few Charles families in Garvock, you might find Alexander that way.
   Also John’s father should be an Alexander, and there is an Alexander baptized in Garvock at about the right time?
  Or John to Alexander in Insch.
  It can bc a case of building a lot of mini trees!
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Monday 28 October 24 23:57 GMT (UK)
Hi David
    Thanks for that!  It is complicated research as the records just don't have enough information unfortunatley unless your lucky enough to find family with the old bible records, I could only hope.

You are right when you say that the family could come from other areas other than Mill of Garvock, be born one place baptised another.

I have print outs for all of the GARVOCK Charles'.  More than likely there is a connection but too hard to tell.  If I use the naming system as you have suggested I do see an Alexander CHARLES b 1744 in Garvock son of GEORGE CHARLES/JEAN SADLER.  Possible I guess

The only one I know for sure is the JOHN CHARLES b 30/01/1770. He was the minister in Garvock.  Son of John Charles and Christina JAMIE. 

The other is possibly the JOHN CHARLES b 1755 in Garvock to WILLIAM CHARLES and Ann CRAIK? and a JAMES CHARLES b 1750 to same parents (brothers).


Again only speculation and I would have to check in other area's as well.  Seems to be a very difficult task.  If the family had of done something note worthy/bad or other there may have been mention of them.  LOL

I have all of the available BDM'S for Garvock as I was trying to put them in groups.  I'm just sorting all of the CHARLES documents at the moment to see where I can go from here.

Many thanks Regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Tuesday 29 October 24 00:49 GMT (UK)
Hi again David
   I'm just looking at my James CHARLES baptismal record 6 December 1789 at Mill of Garvock and I found two more children also baptised at the same place.
1) May 13th 1790 Elizabeth Fettes daughter to George and Elizabeth Shepherd
2) June 25th 1790 David Milne son of John Miln Farmer in? Mill of Garvock and Ann Pirie

So a few families perhaps employed by the owners of Mill or Garvock.


I did have in my records!!! a snippet re the owner I think Of Mill of Garvock re him paying tax could have been carriage/horse tax something like that.  I will have to find that again

And of course there are the Mort Cloths that aren't included on Scotland's people as being searchable are they???  I have found Mort cloths and NO death registered/entered anywhere.  Regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: David Nicoll on Tuesday 29 October 24 06:10 GMT (UK)
Dianna,
     Hi, yes it is complicated, do you have them or their family turning up in later census documents. If you are lucky you might get some visitors.
     Yes, if you don’t already know the three words, of, in, at tell you a lot.

     Of - usually the owner
    In - tenant
    At - worker

    So the Milne’s should be the tenants..

    Yes I have a few who only appear in Mort cloth records at their death. It depends on the record keeping. It’s worth researching what the quality of the parish records are, where there are gaps etc. the are a few who I have found who have fallen in those gaps.
    Also as you say the session records, they can be quite informative.
   
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Tuesday 29 October 24 06:59 GMT (UK)
Hi here is the record I have been looking for.  Maybe this John Mill was the Owner, not sure.  Thanks Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 29 October 24 08:42 GMT (UK)
That is a transcript from the Horse Tax rolls which are searchable online at www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk
See https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/horse-tax-rolls-1785-1798/horse-tax-volume-29/163
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: David Nicoll on Tuesday 29 October 24 17:23 GMT (UK)
Thanks Forfarian,
that gives a nice coverage of the use of, at, in and other with theDoctor being of Balmakewan, and John Mill being at Mill of Garvock in 1797.

Interesting difference with the 1790 baptism, had he lost the tenancy, or is it just a descriptive difference.
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 29 October 24 17:34 GMT (UK)
that gives a nice coverage of the use of, at, in and other
I did rather wonder about that, because most of the names listed were 'at' and I'd have expected more of the horse owners to be 'in' rather than 'at'.
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Tuesday 29 October 24 17:51 GMT (UK)
HI David and Forfarian
    Thanks both for your replies.  It's interesting to find where our ancestors lived at least even though we cannot find too many details of them.

    I imagine that my Charles family could have very well moved from the area of Garvock as James b 1789 went to Farnell, may have been better work opportunites I guess.

 He, James seems to have been employed in Woodend Farnell from 1812 to nearly his death age 90 (as a pauper) in 1879, as an Ag Labourer/Forrester's labourer. 

  I'm still hoping to track down some books on the Forfar/Angus area to get a better feel of their home.  Obviously changed over the years though.  Many thanks and kind regards Dianna

   Seems to have been employed by the Carnegie family who had Kinnaird Castle/Estate. 

    It's wonderful finding information about where they lived in Farnell it's seems so beautiful there.

Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: David Nicoll on Tuesday 29 October 24 18:00 GMT (UK)
Dianna,

   Hi, have you looked at the Statistical Accounts for Scotland. The give a fascinating picture of each parish, written by the local minister.

There are a few more interesting books that are now freely available online that cover the parishes and counties.
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Tuesday 29 October 24 18:06 GMT (UK)
Hi again
   I hope this is okay to ask a bit of help with a translation please.  I have attached the document and included what I think it say's.

My James and wife Helen Lows first child Jean was born/baptised 19 July 1812 and James and Helen were married in Laurencekirk in 17th May 1812.

I did not find any Kirk sessions for them in Laurencekirk where they were married.  I thought that would have been where they got into trouble with the church if Helen was obviously expecting, LOL unless I've missed something.  Regards Dianna

CHURCH FARNELL 19TH OF JULY 1812
 
THE SESSION BEING MET AND CONST???TED BY PRAYER SE??? THE REVEREND MR WILSON MODERATOR ROBERT WEBSTER ELDER AND ANDREW KINNEAR SESSION CLERK – COMPEARED JAMES CHARLES A MARRIED MAN AND CONFESSED HIMSELF GUILTY OF ANTINUPTIAL FORNICATION WITH HELEN LOW HIS WIFE AND HAVING MADE HIS APPEARANCES AND SATISFIED THE DISCIPLINE OF THE CHURCH HE WAS ABSOLVED FROM THE SCANDAL AND DISMISSED
 
S??T CLOSED WITH PRAYERS
 
It looks like the last word in the first line could be the same as the first word in the last line.

Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Tuesday 29 October 24 18:09 GMT (UK)
Hi David
    I have heard of the Statistical Accounts thanks will look into it especially if they are written by the local minister, that could prove interesting.

Can't wait until I update my computer and then I can really have a good look for everything.  Thanks
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 29 October 24 22:09 GMT (UK)
THE SESSION BEING MET AND CONSTITUTED BY PRAYER SEDERUNT

Sederunt is Latin and literally means 'they sat down' but it is used in the context of a formal meeting. It is also used as a noun, as in the last line.
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Tuesday 29 October 24 22:25 GMT (UK)
HI Forfarian
     Thanks so much for that.  I now have a complete document for my records.  Kindest regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 09 April 25 01:04 BST (UK)
Hi all!  I would just like to add an update to my intial enquiry on the above couple after going through the GARVOCK Kirk/Accounts

I hope I have this correct though. I seem to have come across a PALL??? is it?? record for a JOHN CHARLES in Garvock 13 March 1791.

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/virtual-volumes/volume-images/volume_data-CH2-655-3/GAZ00559?image_number=140

THEN much to my surprise 4 records come up after this for a MARGARET CADANHEAD!!

From Garvock Kirk sessions accounts 1769-1814.

30 July 1792 to Margt. CADANHEAD on behoof?? of her family 8 shillings (is it?0
21 July 1793 to Margaret CADENHEAD on behoof of her children 10 shillings
3 August 1794 to Margaret CADENHEAD 4 shillings
31 August 1794 to Margaret CADENHEAD 5 shillings.

Margaret may have remarried as there are no more records for her on the Kirk sessions receiving money

I believe it was practice for a women to not only retain her maiden name BUT to revert to it when she became a widow.

I was so happy to find this record.  Even though my eyes are falling OUT.

I found one very early record also back in the 1730's for a JOHN CHARLES being the Session Clerk!!  Don't know if it all connects though.  Time may tell.  Regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 09 April 25 08:46 BST (UK)
I seem to have come across a PALL??? is it?? record for a JOHN CHARLES in Garvock 13 March 1791.
Yes - though it's more usual to find it called a mortcloth. It is the cloth that is draped over the coffin during the burial service. The fees for hire of it went into parish funds for the poor.

Quote
THEN much to my surprise 4 records come up after this for a MARGARET CADANHEAD!!
From Garvock Kirk sessions accounts 1769-1814.
A widow was often given support from parish funds if she had no means of earning or support, especially if she had dependent children.

Quote
8 shillings (is it?0
Yes. Eight shillings is £0.40. Converting for inflation, it was worth about £50 in today's terms.

Quote
Margaret may have remarried as there are no more records for her on the Kirk sessions receiving money
Or she might have died, or the children may have grown up, got employment, and supported their mother and younger siblings if any.

Quote
I believe it was practice for a women to not only retain her maiden name BUT to revert to it when she became a widow.
Yes.
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 09 April 25 09:00 BST (UK)
Hi another little piece in the zigsaw puzzle.  At least I know what happened now to my John Charles. 

I searched up to 1814 for a mention of Margaret (re death/cloth) but maybe she lived a long happy life I hope.

She may have ended up with one of the children!!!

I'd never heard of a Pall, you learn something everyday.

8 shillings doesn't sound much but I guess she made do with it.  Lucky to receive it at all I guess.

Many thanks hopefully may find more!!  Regards Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 28 May 25 00:42 BST (UK)
Hi again everyone
    I am just doing a bit more research on my Margaret CHARLES nee CADENHEAD (many variants)
and I am double checking for deaths/burials after 1794.

I found this one this morning and found it interesting as the mort cloth record is for the same place she was from?? Or married at least.

Could anyone decipher the place she died looks like G???N.  I will have to go back now to the Kinneff and Catterline Kirk sessions just in case her children are mentioned or ??? anything relevant.

Many thanks Dianna
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 28 May 25 06:29 BST (UK)
Gurdon i.e. Gourdon.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO8270
Title: Re: JOHN CHARLES and MARGARET CADENHEAD
Post by: haney on Wednesday 28 May 25 06:41 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian
     Thanks very much for that.  Regards Dianna