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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: petey22 on Sunday 20 October 24 13:03 BST (UK)
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dear all,
I am having trouble reading the names of the witnesses on the marriage entry for James Bocking and Elizabeth Tiffen, 13-11-1820 at all Saints, Sudbury, Suffolk. I am hoping that one or more of the witnesses may help me discover the origins of Elizabeth Tiffen (or Tiffin).
I hope that someone has a better eye than myself ::)
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Not entirely sure ???
Third witness James Washington :-\
Second Lucy B..r
First Edward Johns :-\ edit or does it begin with a T
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Maybe Edward Johns
Lucy Bear and James ?ton
Not very helpful I'm afraid - sorry, but they really are difficult aren't they!
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Edward Rokes the k is like the end of mark and the es is like the end of James
Sorry, now the picture has vanished, I'll try again
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Lucy Bear was baptised in Sudbury in 1800
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Edward Rokes the k is like the end of mark and the es is like the end of James
Or Edward Fokes? Aka Foakes!
Maybe this one, bap All Saints in 1798
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5YP-779
Might the third witness be a regular? Everyone else marked.
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I had:
Edward Holmes
Lucy (now I agree with bear)
Edward Slaughter (only because Slaughter would fit like a proverbial key)
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Great baptism finds Shaun and jonwarrn.
I see that the Fokes parents Thomas and Eliza/Elizabeth had other children baptised in Sudbury as Fokes.
Thomas Fokes, widower, had married an Elizabeth Bacon at Sudbury in 1797.
So no surname connection with the couple originally being sought - yet!
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Have you checked other marriages either side of this one? The same names might keep appearing (in which case they may well have been connected with the church, not the couple). If they are common witnesses, you might be able to see their names more clearly in a different entry.
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@ Pennines, I haven't spotted any surname as of yet, Bear does rings a bell somewhere and I am currently putting that family together and hoping to find something to link them and then go onto the next possible witness name, and so on ::)
I am attempting to trace every Elizabeth Tiffen (or Tiffin) born in Essex or Sudbury to discover which Elizabeth Tiffen is my one ???
All I really know about her is that she marries James Bocking (in 1820) and thereafter marries William Rogers in 1830 as a widow. In the census records she constantly gives her place of birth as Middleton, Essex and was born somewhere between 1800 and 1806. Thus, I am hoping that one of the witnesses will offer a link to one of the possible Elizabeth's on my list :P A long shot I know, but after many years of searching its all I can think of to do,,,,,
@ Ayashi That is a good idea! not sure how to go about doing that but will give it some thought this evening after work ;D
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My sister has done her best to enhance the certificate, not sure it helps that much ???
Am trying to put the Bear family together and will post my results this weekend ;D
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enhanced version
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the results on tracking down Lucy Bear c1800 (witness 1)
Parents: John Bear and Mary (unknown) date of marriage unknown but before 1798.
Siblings: William 1798 († 1800), George 1803, Charles 1805 (†1806), Mary 1810 (marries William French), Rebbecca 1810, Thomas (Mortalman) 1814 and John 1819.
Census (parents): in 1841 they are living at Ballingdon Street. (Curiously enough there is an Elizabeth Bocking aged 35 and an Ann Bocking 3 months further down on the Middleton road, something that warrants further investigation).
In 1851 Mary (john is dead date unknown) is living with daughter Mary (French) and kids together with son Thomas (described as idiot/imbecile). (a few doors down there are: Samuel Bocking 57, wife Susan 62 kids William 23 and Samuel 20, so gotta look at the Bocking Families in the area)
Lucy Bear: bap 15-12-1800, all Saints, Sudbury
in the 1841 census she is in the Sudbury, Union workhouse aged 40, unmarried, not born in county. In 1851 she seems to be at Wickham, St. Paul, Suffolk living as a lodger with the Horsley family.
after that I cannot find her. There is a curious possible marriage to a Lydia Brown, Sudbury 1854, vol4a, p562.
Ok that all said the only link I can think of between Elizabeth Tiffen and Lucy Bear is that Lucy most probably lived on Ballingdon Street with her parents which is connected to the Middleton road which of course leads to Middleton where Elizabeth claims on her census records to have been born.
So, they lived close to each other sometime between being born and 1820 when Elizabeth marries James Bocking. Maybe they knew each other when they were young and grew up as best friends ??? ::) ???
Vague I know, but I cannot connect them in any other way and any connection would be between 1800 and 1820. I was hoping that Lucy would marry and have Elizabeth as a witness.
Oh well, Its time to move on and just keep on searching ;D
I'll try the next witness 8)
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Edward Rokes the k is like the end of mark and the es is like the end of James
Or Edward Fokes? Aka Foakes!
Maybe this one, bap All Saints in 1798
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5YP-779
Might the third witness be a regular? Everyone else marked.
Edward Fokes c1798 (witness 2)
Parents Thomas Fokes 1745 and Elizabeth Bacon 1767 married 09-04-1797, Sudbury, Suffolk.
Siblings Thomas 1797, William 1801, Mary 1804, James 1807.
marriage Edward marries Susan Roberts born c1800, Listen, Essex at all Saints, Sudbury 13-07-1823. They have children Pheobe chr. 04-02-1827 all Saints, Middleton, Edward chr. 12-07-1829, all Saints, Middleton and James c1834, Sudbury.
Census In 1841 they are living in Ballingdon Street, Essex a few doors down from Lucy Bears parents.
So, living in close proximity to Lucy Bears parents and also Edward Fokes and wife have at least 2 children born in Middleton (1827-29) Am I on the right road here or is it just chance ::)
I have now printed out the 1841 census for Ballingdon Street and Middleton road. It's only 9 pages and am trying to get a idea of how long these streets are and how many houses there are along them to assess the probability or chances of these 2 witnesses knowing each other and more importantly Elizabeth Tiffen/Bocking :P
It seems I must delve into the 1841 census of Middleton to see what names can be found there ;D
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Map some 40 years later still only shows a relatively small group of houses on Ballingdon Street
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101578553#zoom=3&lat=4756&lon=3783&layers=BT
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firstly thanks to mckha489 for the link to the map, absolutely fascinating :o Middleton looks to be a rectory and land house with anyone living there (or being born there,,, Elizabeth Tiffen) existing to serve either these places. I must do some more research into this lovely little village and Church. Any recommended reads for Middleton?
Secondly, and here it comes, as a desperate act I contacted the person who made copies of the wedding entry for me and they had made a note of the witnesses :o We had Lucy Bear correct, Edward unreadable (we think it was Fokes) and thirdly she wrote down James Must or Munt Snr. :o
This name also appears on the marriage entry of Elizabeth Bocking (widow) to William Rogers at All Saints, Sudbury 30-07-1830. So James Must snr. is either someone who can link these 2 marriages by being some kind of family member to Elizabeth Tiffen/Bocking/Rogers or is as 'Ayashi' suggested they may well have been connected with the church, not the couple, serial witnesses,,,,
The name Must does appear somewhere in my tree, so will attempt to track him down ::)
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The name Must does appear somewhere in my tree, so will attempt to track him down ::)
It is a vague link but:
William Rogers 1807 who marries Elizabeth Tiffen/Bocking in 1820 has brother George 1805, who in turn has a son George 1824. This George marries Charlotte Must 1828. Charlotte is daughter of James Must 1806, whose father is James Must 1781, whom I believe to be the James Must snr. Witness 3 ::)
I am sure if I search further there will be another link somewhere between the Rogers's and the Must's.
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The street to Middleton from Ballingdon would not have had many houses. There is now an estate of houses, the reason that Ballingdon Hall was moved up the hill away from the new houses in the 1970s. A medieval house on rollers, worth trying Mr Google to see more on this.
The name Beer is often found in the area.
Pat