RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: grahamd15 on Monday 07 October 24 04:09 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone,
I'm trying to track down a French ship that one of my ancestors may have deserted, named "Corneille" or "La Corneille".
I have found this Australian newspaper article that lists men who deserted the ship in Nov 1861 at Sydney here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252046271?searchTerm=Corneille
and a NZ newspaper article that details its arrival in Auckland in Dec 1861:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18611231.2.4.3?items_per_page=100&page=22&phrase=2&query=Cator&snippet=false
The NZ paper says that her captain was a man named L'Eveque of the French Imperial navy. In both articles "Corneille" is described as a corvette.
As it is a military ship would records survive of its crew members? I would also like to try to find its port of origin if possible.
My ancestor stated in his naturalisation that his ship sailed from Toulon and he arrived in Sydney in Dec 1864. As his naturalisation occurred decades later, I am entertaining the possibility that he may have arrived three years earlier than he stated.
Thanks for your help in advance!
-
Is your ancestor one of those named as deserters in the clip from Trove?
There are several more bits about La Corneille arriving in Auckland on paperspast, most of which don't add anything to the one you found.
But this one says the ship WAS built in Toulon.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZ18611225.2.4
(I think "Capitaine de Vaisseau" means 'Captain of the vessel'.)
-
My ancestor was named Charles Franks - which I believe was a name he took in Australia. This is his naturalisation document: https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11884
From his children's birth certificates and his own marriage and death certificate his age and birth place of Brest, France remained the same. However, I have been unable to track him down in the Brest baptismal records.
Thank you for finding that newspaper clip. It does seem if La Corneille remained in stock in Toulon until 1859 that it would be most likely it sailed from there.
-
No hint at his birth name? Birthdate is what (approximately, at least)?
-
No hint as to his birth name. His father was named John and worked as a baker, per Charles' marriage certificate (his mother's name was listed as unknown).
On his naturalisation application Charles stated that he was born on the 6 December 1839 in Brest, France. The 1839 date lines up with the ages he provided on his children's birth certificates and marriage certificate. If we take that date as the absolute then either Eugene Perrot or Ulyn Gantier Ferdinand would be our best bet if Charles was one of those deserters listed in the Police Gazette. I would say that with the poor record keeping at that time the others listed still could potentially be Charles (beside Jean Marie Brun who was 28).
I forgot to mention earlier, family stories from multiple branches relay that Charles jumped ship (some branches mention a brother, others do not) - which is why I think that one of these men who deserted the Corneille could be Charles as it fits with the ship name he gave on his naturalisation application.
Charles' sons' names, which could possibly be a hint, were:
John Charles
Edward
Louis
Charles Alexander
Ernest Victor William
Henry Murray
Leonard Charles
-
Trying to confirm the name of the ship - "Corneille" or "Cornelie"?
Article dated 1 Jan 1864 - note name of captain
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k54521788/f492.image.r=eveque
This records naval vessels up to 1933
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k9928595/f63.image.r=cornelie
-
28 May 1863 - see foot col 5
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4774044t/f1.item.r=eveque.zoom
-
Trying to confirm the name of the ship - "Corneille" or "Cornelie"?
I believe that they are interchangeable in English based papers, but I think that its actual name in French is La Cornelie.
Thank you for those clippings!
-
Not sure that they are interchangeable.
-
Have checked for births of the deserters between 1830 and 1840 in Finistère, including variations in names. Not come up with anything yet. At one stage, wondered about a Charles Francès, but eliminated him due to date of birth.
Will look again later when at home.
-
Not sure that they are interchangeable.
I'm basing my suspicion that they are interchangeable on these articles:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13064305?searchTerm=Corneille - here it is written as Corneille with a Captain Levegue
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28624905?searchTerm=Corneille - this article says the Corneille, a French frigate, arrived in Auckland from Sydney on the 29 December
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZ18620111.2.4?end_date=31-01-1862&items_per_page=100&query=Cornelie&snippet=true&start_date=20-12-1861 - this NZ writes it "La Cornelie" under Captain Leveque
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18620110.2.4.2?end_date=31-01-1862&items_per_page=100&query=Corneille&snippet=true&start_date=20-12-1861 - this NZ paper writes it "La Corneille" and departing the same day as above
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBT18620116.2.3?end_date=31-01-1862&items_per_page=100&query=Corneille&snippet=true&start_date=20-12-1861 - this article says that "La Corneille" under Captain L'eveque salied from Sydney for NZ on the 18th December
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60481548?searchTerm=Corneille - this confirms a departure of a Corneille on the 18th for NZ
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60483562?searchTerm=Cornelie - this says a "Cornelie" under Levique arrived in Sydney on the 20th November arrived from Port de France (now Noumea, New Caledonia)
-
Have checked for births of the deserters between 1830 and 1840 in Finistère, including variations in names. Not come up with anything yet. At one stage, wondered about a Charles Francès, but eliminated him due to date of birth.
Will look again later when at home.
Thank you very much for checking them out!
-
Any hints in his marriage certificate as to parents' names?
https://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2022/11/french-seamens-records-digitizing-project-an-update.html
- the French defense site isn't working for me right now but it seems there are some records online if not fully indexed.
-
Any hints in his marriage certificate as to parents' names?
On his marriage certificate it was recorded that Charles' father was John Franks who worked as a baker. His mother is listed as unknown.
-
Quite a few family trees have Charles Franks as born in Brest on 6 December 1839 with father Johann Jacob Frank (born in Speyer, Bavaria) and mother Maria Sybilla Heintz. Johann is of course German for John, so partly ties in with you knowing his father was called John.
I can't find a Charles William P Franks born in December in Brest. Have tried various permutations including French variants of name.
Do you know for sure that your Charles is a deserter from the French Navy or are you just trying to work out how he got to Australia? There are lot of other migration records for people called Charles Franks. Too common a name to be sure of any of them, I'm afraid.
-
Quite a few family trees have Charles Franks as born in Brest on 6 December 1839 with father Johann Jacob Frank (born in Speyer, Bavaria) and mother Maria Sybilla Heintz. Johann is of course German for John, so partly ties in with you knowing his father was called John.
Unfortunately that began with me. Charles' parents being Johann and Maria was a theory I had a while ago which I added to my tree so I could fill it out. Other people began copying it to their trees despite it only being a theory, so now it is present in many trees.
I can't find a Charles William P Franks born in December in Brest. Have tried various permutations including French variants of name.
Charles William P Franks came from an online cemetery register - I contacted the cemetery directly and they found that the register had been incorrectly transcribed. Charles Franks was what was in the register and "William P" part of the entry in the next register.
In saying that, Charles was referred to as Charles John Franks in his wife's death certificate - their son-in-law was informant.
Do you know for sure that your Charles is a deserter from the French Navy or are you just trying to work out how he got to Australia? There are lot of other migration records for people called Charles Franks. Too common a name to be sure of any of them, I'm afraid.
The family story is only that he jumped ship - it was never specified whether that be a Navy ship or a passenger ship. The Corneille fits as it comes from his own account in his naturalisation application. I've had a look at passenger ships that arrived in the 1860 - 1865 period but none have a name that resemble "Corneille".
There was a ship that arrived in 1862 called "Alfred the Great", three men deserted at Sydney - but I believe from the newspaper articles that they were apprehended.
They were:
Charles Frank, 25 from Lisbon
Manuel Domingo, Portugal
Francis Hanz (Also written Frank Hans), 22 from France
I think potentially Charles Frank or Francis Hanz could be my Charles Franks.
Unfortunately, I do think that for the most part these will only remain theories unless I get a DNA match that links to that side.
-
Thanks for clarifying. I, as I'm sure you do, would love to get to the bottom of this. If he did desert, or jump ship, it is possible that he covered his tracks and changed his date and place of birth. Of course that makes it so much more difficult to find him!
Keep us updated and let us know if you find any more leads that could help us track him down.
-
A related thread here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889052.0
-
http://www.mariusbarnumerique.fr/component/hikashop/product/176281-a11316-cornelie%20corvette%20%20france%201849-1879
a photograph of the corvette la Cornélie
http://www.dossiersmarine.fr/c-c1-a.htm
details about la Cornelie
CV Leveque = capitaine de vaisseau = captain Leveque
You are looking for the Corvette La Cornelie , not La Corneille ( typing mistake I think)
-
That's a great find joger, thank you!
I agree I think Australian newspaper mistyped La Cornelie as Corneille.
Do you know if there are any crewlists available online for French naval ships?
-
Could be possible at the Service Historique de la Defense but I haven't been able to access it the last days though I'm in France.
I' ll try again.
I tried to find your Charles Franck ( name which is probably not the right one) in Brest births registers without success but I found some families called Le Franc ( found no Charles though).
-
The SHD Brest gave this :
-
Sorry , the SHD Vincennes gave this
-
So if Charles enlisted in Brest he should be found at SHD Brest in the Roles d'équipage des batiments de guerre ( 1693-1961) in the sous-série 4E, but the research cannot be made on line. One has to go there and do the research .
And do the research in Toulon if Charles is not found in Brest.
Hard work.
-
Thanks for all your advice joger!
I believe that I have found the identity of Charles Franks. There was a Jean Cloarec born 6 Dec 1838 in Boudouguen in Hanvec to Joseph Cloarec and Marie Catherine Omnes. He had three siblings that I have found so far, Marie b. 1841, Jean Louis b. 1842, and Joseph b. 1845. I had a French DNA match that showed up as a potential 4th cousin and I successfully connected her to Marie Cloarec b. 1841. On his marriage certificate Charles listed his father as a baker named John Franks, whereas Joseph Cloarec was a farmer. I will have to investigate this further but I believe that the DNA does connect Charles Franks to Jean Cloarec.
I suspect that the Jean Clorie listed in the "Seamen Deserters" article was mistranscribed from Jean Cloarec as the note to the paper would have been handwritten as typewriters did not become common use until the mid 1880s. I can see from looking at the name in French birth records that if you were unfamiliar with the name you may mistake the "ec" as an "ie".
Thanks to everybody for their help!