RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 00:06 BST (UK)

Title: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 00:06 BST (UK)
Could use some help.
I am Looking for a birth record for Enrico Pio born  22 Oct 1896 supposedly in Montorio Nei Frentani.
Father was Vincenzo Pio and mother Maria Aurco Dittici.
I cannot seem to get any traction  ???
Some have also suggested he was born in Collevecchio which is not close to Montorio Nei Frentani from what I can glean.
Anybody good at digging around for Italian records???
thank you
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 02 October 24 00:48 BST (UK)
From what source did you get his birthyear as 1896?  A tree on Ancestry has it as 1895?  Died 1989 Canada

Canadian 1931 census shows him as 28??  Obit refers to him as Enrico Richard Pio

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:655C-YQXN

What info re age & name is on his marriage cert?  How old is he on the 1921 census?

Where does he fit into your FH?
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 01:23 BST (UK)
I am working on the Tree for a friend
A g granddaughter of Enrico’s gave me the information on his birth.
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 08:35 BST (UK)
Had a look for birth records on https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/) but unfortunately it only shows marriage and citizenship records for Montorio Nei Frentani for 1896.

See this page:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tfw/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tfw/)

This is the only info I can find for Rieti, where records for Collevecchio should be, and can find nothing:

https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tfx/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tfx/)

Add:
Found more. PIO not listed in births for 1896;

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tfy/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tfy/)
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 02 October 24 09:37 BST (UK)
The 1931 census says he arrived in Canada in 1914.  Do you have his immigration records?

What document shows his actual birthdate apart from the obit notice?

How old is he on the 1921 census?  Aged 28 in 1931 so b about 1902/3  yet dies in 1989 aged 94

When did he marry Veronica Miller & what info is on his marriage cert re age or parents?

The Ancestry tree has obvious errors - wife b 1907 but a daughter Mary b 1915

If Enrico was b 1895 - he was 41 when son Louis was born in 1936 & 51 when son Dominic was b in 1946 - both deceased

There needs to be further investigation into his birthyear before looking at Italian records for his birth
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 14:40 BST (UK)
Morning
The G granddaughter has his passport. And apparently it has the same Oct 22 date but his birthyear 1896 and not 1895 as the trees at Ancestry and the obit indicate.
I have not been able to find Enrico on the 1921 Canadian Census :-\.
I did find his marriage in 1925 in Montreal to Vera Miller. That was extremely difficult as his surname looks more like Piel than Pio and so it was transcribed improperly online ::)
I have attached it but it gives no indication of his year of birth.  His parents are hard to decipher too.
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 15:19 BST (UK)
Interesting that death certificate gives date of birth as 22 October 1895 as well. However as so long after the event and in another country it is very possible that this is incorrect. Parents' details not known and place of birth only given as Italy.

Not managed to find anything in the Italian records yet  (and there are some gaps in what is available online).
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 16:26 BST (UK)
Morning
I have got a copy of his baptism and it says 22 Oct 1896  :)
His g granddaughter was kind enough to send me an actual photo of this document.
I am trying to attach it here but it will not attach?
I saved it in different formats and none will work :-\
It is very frustrating as I need help deciphering what is handwritten
The format goes:
Municipality, Province,
Next line Parish and Diocese 
Next line  Certificate of Baptism
all in Italian of course but those are easy to google translate the problem is here is in the handwriting  ???.
The Parish clearly says Collevecchio but I am unsure what the Municipality, Province and Diocese say.
The Municipality looks like Montorio  and the Province looks like Teramo
So regardless,  this is clearly not the "town" on Collevecchio in Reiti  but a rather a parish called Colleveccchio.
Does this help narrow it down for where I might look for his parents etc
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 17:01 BST (UK)
Thank you for the extra info, very helpful!

Have now looked through the records for 1896 for Montorio al Vomano, Teramo, but have not found anything. Will see if I can find anything for 1895.
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 17:26 BST (UK)
Thank you for the hand up Manukarik.
it is so appreciated
It is not clear yet how this Enrico Pio is related but his g grand daughter has a birth record for a Vincenzo Pio born November 1926 in Montorio Al Vomano -parents listed as a Ercole Pio and Luisa Coruzzi
Why this was with Enrico's papers here in Canada is weird?
As Enrico was in Montreal and married by 1925.
But the fact that Montorio Al Vamano is the place means this must be some of his family somehow we must be on the right track here
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 17:54 BST (UK)
Have found other PIO births but not Enrico's  :( Have even tried looking under mother's maiden name. There is a Collevecchio series of records but these only go up to 1865. Frustrating not to find him and be able to help! Have looked a few years either side of the date you have...

Did find a birth record for Luigi Ercole PIO. Possibly same family?
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 17:59 BST (UK)
Thank you for trying
Can you tell me the other births in case they were by chance siblings of his?
Father Vincenzo...I am having a hard time confirming that indeed I have his mother's maiden name correct.
Saw you found a possibly link with Luigi Ercole...what are the particulars of him (year of birth, parents etc.)  maybe he is the Ercole father of Vincenzo 1926
Susan
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 18:22 BST (UK)
Luigi Ercole PIO's birth certificate:
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35914827/LD3AWKO?lang=en (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35914827/LD3AWKO?lang=en)  Entry 217

Alfonso Giocondo PIO's birth certificate:
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35914942/5xlAQOo?lang=en (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35914942/5xlAQOo?lang=en) Entry 240

Not the same parents as your man's though as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 18:31 BST (UK)
Oh my I will have to do google translate just to follow these 2 documents!
Not sure where exactly the parents names even are on it...maybe I can ask someone here who reads Italian to interpret as the handwriting is something too  :-\
Thank you
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 19:21 BST (UK)
Think the father is Massimantonio PIO and the mother is Maria Domenica CORUZZI for both of the birth certificates I found…
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 02 October 24 19:26 BST (UK)
Both births
father: Massimantonio Pio
mother: Maria Domenica Coruzzi

EDIT: just like manukarik posted just before me
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 19:28 BST (UK)
I found that Massimo Pio and his son, a then 16 year old Alfonso Pio tried to come to Canada in 1914 but were detained and then deported.... they were headed to Hamilton to the home of Enrico Coruzzi.  Probably brother of Alfonso's mother....
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 19:29 BST (UK)
Still gets me no closer to the elusive Enrico Pio though but perhaps he left Italy under a cloud or  arrived here in Canada with secrets or something....
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 19:31 BST (UK)
Any luck for a birth certificate for their father Massimantonio Pio - thinking he might be a brother of my Enrico's father Vincenzo.... :-\
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 19:51 BST (UK)
Will have a look again.

Did you see this 1907 Migration record?

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tg0/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tg0/)

It shows a Vincenzo PIO and a Vincenzo RICCI (both from Montorio) planning to stay with Massimoantonio PIO at 460 St James Street, Montreal, Canada
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 20:04 BST (UK)
No I had not...great pick up!!!!!
 I think it is them  :o -
Vincenzo going to see his brother Massimoantonio!
As the arrival and then deportation in 1914 of Massimo and son Alfonso, it looks like Massimo says he had been to Canada before.
So then he came in 1907 and tried to come back in 1914...

Found from Family Search that Ercole Pio and Lucia Coruzzi married 30 Jan 1926 - father Vincenzo and mother Marianna D'Intino. I was given her maiden name as Dittici (could be transcribed wrong) but regardless someone found a record for that marriage in Montorio al Vomano, Teramo.   

So I am certain we have the right family and location just cannot put it all together!
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 20:10 BST (UK)
Think this might be Massimoantonio's birth certificate:
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35902410/5ggnn9p?lang=en (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35902410/5ggnn9p?lang=en)  Entry 12, page 9

You will see that there are other PIO's listed and can flick backwards and forwards through the register to see them. The Vincenzo PIO shown on the migration list of 1907 is also there. Looks like Massimoantonio and Vincenzo were twin brothers!

Here's a link to Vincenzo's birth certificate:
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35902410/LqZgg2P?lang=en (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35902410/LqZgg2P?lang=en) Entry 13, page 11

Struggling a little with the handwriting, but looks like father = Gaetano PIO and mother = Maria DI MARTINO
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 20:19 BST (UK)
TEAM WORK - or rather a huge thank you to you manukarik!
Wonderful!!!
For some reason I cannot upload anything here  :(
But from Family Search I got the marriage for Ercole Pio - if someone could look at it and tell me the name of his mother that would be great as I do not think it is Dittici  ;).

"Italia, Teramo, Teramo, Stato Civile (Tribunale), 1866-1940",
Event Type   Marriage
Event Date   30 Jan 1926
Event Place   Montorio al Vomano, Teramo, Abruzzo, Italia
Event Place (Original)   Montorio al Vomano
Certificate Number   6
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 02 October 24 20:29 BST (UK)
marriage for Massimantonio Pio
 https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35914807/LpeWbB1
his father: Gaetano
his mother: Maria Di Martino

So well done manukarik
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 20:37 BST (UK)
Have hopefully attached a blown up version of the name you were wanting help to decipher. and a link to the page it came from:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tg1/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tg1/)

Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 02 October 24 20:51 BST (UK)

But from Family Search I got the marriage for Ercole Pio - if someone could look at it and tell me the name of his mother that would be great as I do not think it is Dittici  ;).



Found from Family Search that Ercole Pio and Lucia Coruzzi married 30 Jan 1926 - father Vincenzo and mother Marianna D'Intino.

The blown up version shows Marianna D'Intino.
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 21:02 BST (UK)
Zefiro and his x-ray vision to the rescue again!  :) Kept seeing the n as cc!
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 21:03 BST (UK)
I cannot thank you both enough Zefiro and manukarik
Thank you for persevering when it looked like this was going nowhere.
Bits and pieces and with your help and it came together.

So I now have a family for my Enrico Pio born 1896.
Brother Ercole Pio - their father Vincenzo and their mother Marianna D'Intino. 
And I have Vincenzo's brother Massimoantonio and their father Gaetano and mother Marie De Martino!

And you both are great at interpreting the writing too!!!!


Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Wednesday 02 October 24 21:40 BST (UK)
I think I got Gaetano's parents from his death record at Family search:  Massimantonio and Celeste Ferretti
Says they were married in 1823 but does not provide a link to their marriage document.
Does have the link to Gaetano's death in 1912 and it alludes to his birth as being 1825 based on his age at the time of death as 87.

Too bad these records for Collevecchio are so hit and miss  :(

Could I ask if either of you could try for a birth for Marianna D'Intino?
Big ask after a long day  :)

Susan
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Wednesday 02 October 24 22:23 BST (UK)
Can't see a marriage in Collevecchio in 1823 for Massimantonio and Celeste Ferretti but could have been married in bride's home town?

Will look again tomorrow for Marianna D'Intino as it's bedtime here!
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Friday 04 October 24 08:49 BST (UK)
Sorry, have not had much time to research, with work and celebrating mum's 90th birthday.

Have found Gaetano PIO's birth certificate:

https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35896721/LN3a61O (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35896721/LN3a61O) Entry 11, page 9

Still looking for Marianna ...
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Friday 04 October 24 09:09 BST (UK)
Marriage Certificate of Massimantonio PIO and Maria Celeste FERRETTI:

https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35890892/LaYv9db?lang=en (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35890892/LaYv9db?lang=en) Entry 8, page 10
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Friday 04 October 24 12:17 BST (UK)
I cannot thank you enough manukarik
These are wonderful finds that have taken a very bare family tree into one getting fuller by the day!
You have a really great eye….as I look at these records and I have to look several times, over & over and really focus to just see their names  :o
You finding them in a sea of similar documents is really amazing
I am trying to make out parents for Massimantonio & Celeste - ideas?
Clearly this Pio family was in that area for at least a century  :) :)
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Friday 04 October 24 12:38 BST (UK)
PS- Wonderful that you Mom celebrated her 90th birthday!   My Mom will be turning 87 at the end of this month :)
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Friday 04 October 24 13:07 BST (UK)
I did try my hand perusing in the Collevecchio Birth records to find the wives of these Pio men....
Marianna D'Intino birth circa 1859-1865 (as sons born in the 1890s)
Maria Di Martino birth circa 1828
I came up empty  :-\ 
Thinking they probably were from another village/ area....probably where their wedding records are too...as you suggested.
Probably another village in the Province of Teramo though...I will maybe try my hand looking for those surnames online and see where they come from.
But there are a lot of PIOs in Collevecchio, Teramo so I think this was definitely the Mother land for them!!!!!
 
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Friday 04 October 24 17:04 BST (UK)
I was able to find Maria Celeste Feretti's death in 1858 in the Collevecchio register all by myself. ;D
But I cannot upload anything here...Something is off after I uploaded that initial marriage :-\
Anyway, I made out her age 66 and father Gregorio Ferretti.
But like with her marriage, I still cannot make out her mother's name.
Also the last line on the death record "domiciliata" mentions Massimantonio Pio but I cannot decipher whether the words suggest he is already dead or not.
I went backwards to 1830 and could not find his death
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Friday 04 October 24 18:51 BST (UK)
Well done, LUV!

This is the death certificate you referred to: https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35902443/wlV88A6 (https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12657/an_ua35902443/wlV88A6)

Mother's name is Faustina (unsure about surname, maybe Marcacci? Site on ancestry has mother as Cecilia Marcacci, which seems to be backed up by marriage certificate).

I keep seeing the word fu before her parents and her husband which I believe means deceased.

Parents' births will be in church records so not available online?
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Friday 04 October 24 20:16 BST (UK)
Yes, that's the one
I thought the words before his name might mean her husband was dead by 1858
I went backwards, as I said (they are small yearly registers for deaths in Collevecchio) and I could not find Massimantonio's death though :-\
Well, it is quite the undertaking and I would NEVER EVER gotten this far without your assistance.
Susan
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: Zefiro on Friday 04 October 24 21:35 BST (UK)

Mother's name is Faustina (unsure about surname, maybe Marcacci?

I keep seeing the word fu before her parents and her husband which I believe means deceased.



I too read it as Marcacci

The word fu is correct and means deceased. (just like the French word feu).
An explanation in Italian is to be found here:
https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/fu/
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: manukarik on Friday 04 October 24 23:30 BST (UK)
Thanks for confirming that Zefiro.
Title: Re: Finding Vital stats for Montorio Nei Frentani, Italy
Post by: LUV on Friday 04 October 24 23:57 BST (UK)
Thank you…reading these is an exercise in patience and perseverance  ;)