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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: MrsGnomus on Thursday 26 September 24 12:07 BST (UK)
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I am looking for advice about where else I can look to try and find when and where my husband's great grandmother died.
She was born Jessie Birnie Maitland Leith on 20 July 1888 at 20 Park Street Aberdeen. Her mother was Agnes Leith and she married Jessie's reputed father James Maitland in 1890.
Jessie married Charles Milne on 19 January 1907. They had a total of 5 children, 3 daughters and 2 sons. Their first daughter Robina was born in December 1905 and died in May 1906. Their third daughter Rosehannah was born in 1908 and died in 1919. Their other children were:-
Margaret, born 1907, died 1980
Charles, born 1910, died 1973 (my husband's grandfather)
George, born 1914, died 1937
I have found the family in the 1911 Census when they were living at 115 Gallowgate in Aberdeen. Charles (senior) was described as a Dock Labourer - Coal.
By the date of the 1921 Census things seem to have got significantly worse for the family, Jessie, her husband and Margaret were living at 3 Raggs Lane in Aberdeen (Jessie is listed as the tenant in the valuation rolls for 1920) and the two sons were living in the Aberdeen Poorhouse. Jessie was described as a fish worker and seems to have been in regular employment but her husband was described as a casual labourer.
I can't find Jessie listed as a tenant in the 1925 Valuation Rolls at that address. There are 3 other Jessie Milne's listed in 1925 but they all have matching addresses to some of the Jessie Milne's that are in the 1920 records so I am pretty sure that i can exclude them.
Her husband died on 19 January 1930 at Woodend Hospital. His usual address was listed as the home of his oldest brother George and the informant was listed as George's wife Helen. I have no idea when he went to live with his brother or what the circumstances for that move were. The record of his death says that he was married to Jessie Maitland - it doesn't say that he was a widower. I presume that means that she was still alive at that point.
The next pieces of information are the marriage records of the three children who survived into adulthood. Margaret married on 4 December 1931 - both her parents were described as deceased.
George married on 2 November 1935 - both parents were again described as deceased. Charles married on 14 November 1936 and again both parents were described as deceased.
I can't find a record of when Jessie died - even when I search from 1921 onwards (the census record being the last definite evidence that she was still alive) and searching using Milne, Maitland and Leith as possible surnames and not limiting the search to Aberdeenshire. I also can't find any evidence that she remarried after her husband died.
Any suggestions for where to look next would be great. Am I missing something obvious?
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This is a frustrating one, isn't it! Her children would surely have known that she was indeed deceased by the time they were married, so the window really should only be from 1921 to 1931. It does seem strange that the informant on Charles Milne's death is his sister-in-law, especially as he died in hospital, but might explain why Jessie is given as Jessie Maitland, rather than Leith.*
*Edited to add - Jessie would have been Maitland, as her mother later married her father!
However, if something happened between 1921 and 1931, as Charles and Jessie don't seem to be living together, then it may be that the children lost touch with their mother and assumed that she had died. Widening the date range at at Scotland's People centre might be an idea, as you'll be able to view more certificates that way, including those beyond the cut off dates.
Could she have gone to prison? Newspapers might have something, it'd be worth a look if you've not done so.
What's also frustrating is that the Aberdeen city poor records for that time are very patchy, with no real records surviving. There is a list at the city archives (archives [at] aberdeencity.gov.uk) of people who were in Oldmill and in receipt of poor relief under reference C/16/3/1. They are currently closed as they're moving premises, but it's worth an email to them. There are also Woodend Hospital records held at NHS Grampian Archives (gram.archives [at] nhs.scot) - they might not give you any more information than is on Charles's death cert, but again worth an enquiry.
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Did you look at the 1970 death record for a Jessie Maitland, aged 81 Aberdeen, 168/1/218. May not be her, but perhaps worth a look.
Regards
Malky
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Thanks for the suggestions.
I have already checked the 1970 death record - that Jessie Maitland was the widow of a James Maitland with her maiden surname given as Smith.
I will have a look through the newspapers that are available on line again although I have already trawled through them once. I will also see if I can find out if she was admitted to the poorhouse after 1921. Admission to a psychiatric hospital or a fever hospital would also be a possibility (the daughter who did in 1919 died of TB) but I would still have expected her death to be registered somewhere if she was an inpatient in an institution.
Since my original post I have discovered that her husband was conscripted in WW1 and was an “Engine man” on a “Hired Trawler” (minesweeper). After the end of the war he was demobilised from the Navy in 1919 and almost immediately re-enlisted into the Land Corps (after the death of the daughter who died in 1919) so he didn’t return to Aberdeen permanently until the second half of 1920. The records imply that the re-enlistment was his choice.
His recorded address when he was conscripted was his brother’s address but that’s not where the family were living in 1911 and it’s also not the address where his son George was born in October 1914 (2 months after he was conscripted). It is the address that the family were apparently living in 1919 when their daughter died as that’s what’s on her death record. His address when he was demobilised in 1920 was given as Raggs Lane. I don’t know when their 2 sons were admitted to the Poorhouse - I just know that it was before the 1921 census date (my father in law didn’t know that his father had been there until I told him last year). I guess it’s possible that the sons were placed there during the war so that Jessie could work but that doesn't explain why they were still there in 1921. I think it’s probably more likely that the family were always struggling financially and periodically ended up living at his brothers address. The new information doesn’t really get me any closer to finding out what happened to Jessie after 1921 though.
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Have you checked this death
Jessie M Milne
Birth year 1889
Age 45 years
Death 1934
Flyde
Lancashire
Findagrave Fleetwood Cemetery
Jessie Maitland Milne
Death May 1934
Also on deceasedonline it might not be her but worth checking
There doesn't appear to be any deaths for her on Scotlandspeople so maybe she moved To England
There seems to be a death in the paper for this Jessie Maitland Milne 1934
Address 79,Dock Street Fleetwood ( Fleetwood Chronicle ) also a record 1933 of her being Drunk and disorderly .I can see a few records for her before 1920 in Aberdeen being Drunk
Rosie
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Thanks for suggesting that. I had the death in Fleetwood previously but the search that I was using didn't give the middle name so I hadn't pursued it any further before today.
I think that it's almost certainly the person that I am looking for as the GRO digital record for her death states that she was the widow of a Charles Milne. The cause of death was given as acute pulmonary tuberculosis. Two of her children also died of tuberculosis.
I also spent sometime trawling through various newspaper articles this afternoon as at least one of the archives that I don't normally have access to unless I go to the library is free this weekend. It seems that in 1915 she was found guilty of child neglect, as a result of her alcohol abuse, and her youngest child who was only 13 months old was very close to dying. The newspaper article mentions that three of the children had been admitted to the City Hospital with "consumption" (TB) and that she had also been admitted with the same condition but had refused to stay in hospital.
As you say there are a number of records of her being drunk and ending up in Court including the record from Fleetwood the year before her death so it looks like she never got in control of her drinking. I have no idea how she will have ended up living in Fleetwood after her husband died though.
I did check the deceased online and discovered that there are two individuals buried in the same plot with a John Binning Douglas who died in 1932 being in the same plot which adds to the mystery as with only 2 burials in the pot it seems unlikely that it was a paupers grave.
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The death for John Binning Douglas 1932 in the Fleetwood Chronicle also gives his address as Dock Street Fleetwood .There is also a record for him also being drunk 1929 so it looks like they could have been living together
Rosie
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There is possibility this John Binning Douglas was born in Scotland
W
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Doing a general search for John Binning Douglas suggests he may have been born in Edinburgh in 1878.
There are a number of records for the above in Lincolnshire in the 1920's, including seaman's records. It is also worth searching the newspaper archive while you have access for him in Grimsby ( I searched under John B Douglas). There are a couple of articles referring to him, one involving drink!
Of particular interest is an electoral roll from 1927. Recorded at 197 King Edward Street Grimsby are John Binning Douglas and Jessie Maitland Douglas.
I would suggest that what ties the locations of Aberdeen, Grimsby and Fleetwood together is the fishing industry. John Binning Douglas worked on trawlers .
William
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Well done William finding them on the Electoral Roll records confirms them living together ;)
Rosie
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Thanks for all of that.
I can see that he was sent to prison for 2 months in 1909 for threats to kill and assault. He was living in Grimsby then. It also looks like was he enlisted in the Royal Navy by 1896 and was serving in the Merchant Navy in WW1.
If he was working on trawlers in the 1920’s that would certainly explain how they met as she was working as a fish worker in Aberdeen in 1921.
I will see what else I can dig up tomorrow. If can find his service records from WW1 that might also be interesting.
Elisabeth
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Did you get the death certificate for John Binning Douglas to see what it says ?
Going by some of the records if it's the same one I think he was born 1878 Portobello on Scotlandspeople .One of his navel records his birth is down as 1876 Portobello he is on the 1921 census in Grimsby .I don't have a subscription to find my past but these records are free to view 8/11 November .The person that registered the death for Jessie was she known to the family ?.
Rosie
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I have just looked at the digital image of his death on the GRO website. He died as the result of a stroke while visiting a house in a village between Blackpool and Preston. The owner/occupier of the house was the person who registered the death.
I have also found at least some of his service records on the National Archive website this morning - he seems to have spent a lot of time in the cells for various misdemeanours. I get the sense that she may well have jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire when she became involved with him.
While I have been researching this morning I also came across some evidence of prison records for her mother - the newspaper access is still free this morning so cross checking that has come up with another record of her father assaulting her mother. I haven't told my husband about that one yet!
I don't know anything about the person who reported Jessie's death other than that they were resident at a different address on the same street but were also present when she died - whoever it was knew enough about her to tell the registrar that she was the widow of my husband's great grandfather. As another twist in the tale I used to drive along that street on a fairly regular basis not long after we got married as it was the route to where I would hold an outpatient clinic when I was a trainee Psychiatrist.
My father in law doesn't seem to know a great deal about his father's family history. His mother divorced his father in 1956 - I am pretty sure that his drinking was also an issue from what I have been told. He knew that his father had an older sister and a younger brother but had no idea about him being in the Aberdeen Poorhouse at all - I suspect that this was something that would have been regarded as a great source of shame at the time. His father's younger brother was married to his mother's younger sister (it took me a while to get my head around that one!) but died in 1937, not long after he got married, from TB.
I will definitely be putting in a heavy research session when the records are free to view in November - I did the same last year too. Since then I have found that Lincolnshire Libraries have free access to Find My Past as well as Ancestry. Residents of Nottinghamshire (that's where we finally ended up with work) can sign up to the Lincolnshire Library service so I have done that too - I just need to find time to go and spend a lengthy session at our closest library.
Thanks for all your help
Elisabeth
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Yes agree there about the person registering the death must have been known to the family with information regarding Charles Milne .
Glad it was the right person they certainly had a troubled life ;)
Rosie
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That's great to have found her, though sounds it was a tough life for all concerned. Agree about the link with the fishing, people travelled all over following the boats so end up in various places along the way.
Interesting too that her child, Margaret, said Jessie was deceased before she actually was though, according to her marriage certificate.
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I am constantly amazed at how tough it seems to have been and the number of children who died at extremely young ages.
In respect of her being described as deceased when her daughter married I guess it’s possible that her daughter had no idea if she was alive or dead or didn’t want to admit that her mother had left her father to live with someone she wasn’t married to. However I have found other errors on marriage records for ancestors of my husband with at least two records having the wrong name for the mother of the bride and one other record that had someone listed as deceased when other records contradicted that but on the whole they have been accurate and the extra information included in the Scottish records makes researching much easier than the records for the rest of the U.K.
Now that I have an answer about what happened to Jessie I am moving on to try and find out where and when her husband’s father and paternal grandfather died. Similar situation I can trace them from birth, marriage, having children and appearing in census records but then they both vanish from the census records but aren’t recorded as deceased on other records until their wives died with both of them being described as widows at the date of their death. I can’t find any records for either of them dying in Scotland and I can’t find matches for them in the English and Welsh records. They were both masons/stonecutters so it’s possible that they went abroad for work - I will start a separate post about them if I am still stuck after looking at passenger lists and so on.
Elisabeth