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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: martin hooper on Tuesday 24 September 24 14:37 BST (UK)
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Hello Everyone
My sister recently discovered this postcard of our deceased father (middle row far left) and the other men that joined the RAF with him. On the back there are the signatures of the men in the picture, except my father - I'm thinking that he got all of them to sign it at the end of their basic training.
I've started trying to find out what I can about each man. It'll be difficult, nigh on impossible with the common surnames I expect. I would appreciate your comments, ideas, suggestions and help along the way. I'm expecting this to take a very long time!
Thanks
Martin
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As I am sure you are aware, the men in the photo have just completed their basic training and won't yet have been assigned their trades. And so from here they are likely to have gone to all parts of the RAF, not only the well known Commands such as Fighter and Bomber Commands, but also communications, transport, avionics and weapons to name but a few. And if that wasn't going to make your task hard enough, all their service records are still with the MOD (RAF Disclosures Section, Room 221b Trenchard Hall, RAF Cranwell, Sleaford, Lincolnshire NG34 8HB).
On the plus side you can search Air 78 at the National Archives to find each man's RAF number, which is a major step along the way. You will need to register with TNA (it's free) to download the digital microfilm entries. If you don't know your father's number, you can start with that as you are more likely to identify him among the dozen or more Hoopers who joined up in 1937-38. The entries often contain the date of birth.
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Thanks Andy that's very helpful. I already have my father's service record, but getting the other service numbers would be a big step forward. Since they all seem to have joined at about the same time would their service numbers be in the same range or sequence, do you think? I guess I need to start searching to find out.
Martin
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Yes, I would guess their numbers will be fairly close to one another.
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This was 2013, but the newspaper will probably be interested in the photo you have and the signatures....
https://www.mylondon.news/news/local-news/fond-memories-raf-uxbridge-base-5997214
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I wonder if this is Voce on the card?
https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/124062/
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I wonder if this is Voce on the card?
Good thought but it's not the Voce on the card. I found him on Air78 - Eric Gardiner Voce 622180.
Thanks
MArtin
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I've identified quite a lot of the names on the card by looking through the Air 78 images as Andy suggested. You can see my progress to date on the attached file. My father's number is 621812 and there are several close to his number. And another range of higher numbers. Would the two ranges of numbers correspond with different dates at a recruitment centre? Did all the men visit a central recruitment centre (Uxbridge?), or were there regional centres. Presumably they actually entered service at a later date when they were summoned? The first number in the list is much lower than the others which is a bit of a concern. Could it be that he attended a different recruitment centre from the others? And there are still half a dozen names I'm having trouble finding but I'll post separately about them if I have no success.
Martin
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Could he be the Corporal?
Regards
Chas
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You will probably get a much better reply from Ross (RAFCommands (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=57059)) or someone else who served in the RAF, but my guess would be that the numbers were issued centrally. However what may account for discrepancies is that in some cases the date the airman enlisted may have much earlier than when he was called forward to attend his basic training, for all sorts of reasons, perhaps due to his age or family circumstances. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Afternote. Kiltpin makes a good point.
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Hi Kiltpin
No, he signs himself as Cpl Murray. Pity there's no initial.
Thanks
Martin
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Andy thanks. I'll wait and see what RAF specialists might say. But you've made me realise that if I find possible candidates with higher numbers they're unlikely to be correct. I have a number of possibles for the Brown signature and I think I might be able to reduce them on the basis of the higher numbers.
Martin
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I have found an interesting document which lists all the blocks of RAF serial numbers from 1917 onwards. Somebody did a fair amount of work to produce it, so I don't think I should post a link to it. I've no idea how accurate it is but for my purposes I'll assume it's good enough.
The block of numbers that my airmen are in is the 610000 - 654720 block started in March 1938. My father enlisted in September 1938 as 621812. So in about 6 months they used nearly 12000 numbers. Which equates to a rate of about 2000 per month, or 100 per day (assuming 5 days a week).
So if I have an earlier number than the ranges I'm interested in I can make a rough estimate of how many days or weeks earlier that man enlisted. Does that make sense? Or am I on a flight of fancy?
So on that basis my two main blocks of numbers are only about 3 or 4 days apart. The early number that I was concerned about is about 12 days earlier.
Martin
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Martin,
Just one small factor to add to the mix. In 1938 the Air Defence Cadet Corps (ADCC) was set up by Air Commodore John Chamie RAF. This would later become the Air Training Corps and later still, the Air Cadets. Apparently thousands of cadets joined in the first year, and if they were allocated numbers from the overall RAF pool of numbers (I don't know if this was the case), then that would seriously distort the adult recruit numbers based on your calculation.
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Andy
Yes I agree that my rough calculations could be seriously distorted if the ADCC service numbers were from the same pool. So you set me off on another avenue of research. The ADCC published a Gazette every two months from June 1939 to July 1940, nine in all. I have found images of all 9 Gazettes online and the first one contains a brief history of the formation of the ADCC. The first two squadrons were formed in July 1938. The next two squadrons were formed in September 1938. So I would think that any distortion of my calculations would be minimal for the period I'm looking at.
I have yet to read all of the ADCC Gazettes but I will do so with interest since I was a member of the Air Training Corps myself in the 1960s. So thanks for raising the point.
All the best
Martin
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Hello
With help from others on the handwriting forum I've finally found what I think is all the men - see the image below in service number order. All of the service numbers are within the two ranges I mentioned before, with one midway between the two.
So far this has been an absorbing project just identifying all the names and service numbers - now the fun starts!
All the best
Martin
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Great work Martin,
Glad you were able to assemble the pieces of the jigsaw. I hope you will keep us updated with the next phase. Perhaps if you are able to identify where they all ended up, it will throw some light on the reason for the two groups of numbers; or not!
Andy
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Worth remembering that some course members may have non-consecutive numbers due to previous enlistment or after being re-coursed or moving trade - a few examples...
Illness or injury requiring a break in training
Failing to pass an examination or test needing a resit (re-course) onto a later intake.
Moving from another trade, very common in flying training schools moving from ground to aircrew roles. e.g. Ground Engineer to Flight Engineer.
When I went through OCTU Henlow in the 1970s, the service numbers were all over the place with senior NCOs receiving commissions, other trades trying for aircrew selection, University Air Squadron direct entries and so on.
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A Quick Update on progress.
My ultimate aim is to obtain all 22 RAF service records - which are now free to obtain.
Two of the men died in service, and I've ordered their service records. For the remainder I can't obtain their service records unless I have their death certificates(£££).
I have identified the birth records of another 7, and hence their 1921 census entries. I should be able to find the death records for them.
The remaining 13 all have multiple possibilities for the birth record so it'll be a process of elimination. What I've been doing is eliminating any who appear in the 1939 Register, or died before 1939. But it's still not conclusive. And I have to take into account that some of the men might be Scottish or Irish.
I may have to wait until the service records are at the National Archives and available as downloads. If I live that long!
Martin