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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: Meggiejayne on Thursday 19 September 24 15:52 BST (UK)
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Good afternoon
I'm not really sure where to post this. I'm trying to find out some information about my 4xgreat uncle *I think) John Balls. John was born in 1816 in Roydon, Norfolk and then his family relocated to Tydd St Mary sometime before 1820.
John marries a Sarah Burton and by 1861 they are living in South Road, Tydd St Mary.
In July 1863 John is sentenced to 6 years in Lincoln prison having pleaded guilty to arson. At the family's request I think its says he serves his time at Spalding prison.
However I've been looking at others that have him in their family tree and someone has a photo of John in prison uniform dated 11.10.76 and its labelled as Pentonville. The writing at the top of the photo says C877 (or could be 99 or 79) John Balls and then the date underneath.
The person who has this in their tree has no further information and I have messaged them about the photo.
I'm intrigued to see if there is any further information out there and if so how I would go about finding it.
I have found a burial for him on FindMyPast for the 20th April 1886 in Tydd St Mary but no idea where he died.
Any help would be much appreciated
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I have found a burial for him on FindMyPast for the 20th April 1886 in Tydd St Mary but no idea where he died.
The death was registered in Holbeach registration district so he would have died in that area, the death certificate should confirm place of death unless you can find an obituary for him with that information.
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So he didn't die in prison then.
He should be in prison on 1871 so I'll look for his wife in that year
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There is a likely candidate for him in 1871 an Ag Lab bn Tyd St Mary. living Surfleet, Spalding
RG10
Piece number 3320
Folio 15
Page 6
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There is a likely candidate for him in 1871 an Ag Lab bn Tyd St Mary. living Surfleet, Spalding
RG10
Piece number 3320
Folio 15
Page 6
Yes I saw that. His wife Sarah is with her mother in 1871, she says she's married and a tailoress for occupation. Her mother is with the whole family on the 1861 Census.
In 1881 Sarah is with her daughter Mary Jane and lists herself as a widow, so either the death I found isn't his or she washed her hands of him and declared herself a widow.
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A newspaper report for when he set fire to the straw says that he was previously in trouble for deserting his wife and would rather serve penal servitude than support his family
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There is a likely candidate for him in 1871 an Ag Lab bn Tyd St Mary. living Surfleet, Spalding
RG10
Piece number 3320
Folio 15
Page 6
Don't think thats him as he was born Roydon in Norfolk which he has on the 51 and 61 Census returns.
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A newspaper report for when he set fire to the straw says that he was previously in trouble for deserting his wife and would rather serve penal servitude than support his family
Do you have the link to that please?
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In July 1868 John is sentenced to 6 years in Lincoln prison having pleaded guilty to arson. At the family's request I think its says he serves his time at Spalding prison.
It was 1863 not 1866.
The newspaper report is on FindMyPast in the Lincolnshire / Boston Guardian dated 1st August 1863, sorry I can't do a link
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Yes sorry my mistake...I read it wrong. Double checked the court proceedings that I found.
I've now found the article so thank you for highlighting it.
He was certainly a wrong one and looks like he set the fire for those very reasons.
I just wish I could find if the Pentonville reference is true. But the photo certainly looks like he is a prisoner and there's a number and date at the top.
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There is a likely candidate for him in 1871 an Ag Lab bn Tyd St Mary. living Surfleet, Spalding
RG10
Piece number 3320
Folio 15
Page 6
Don't think thats him as he was born Roydon in Norfolk which he has on the 51 and 61 Census returns.
As the form would have been filled in by the head of the house it is possible that he just listed his normal place of residence as his place of birth. Have you checked other census to see if the one bn Tyd is on them
Is the name actually printed on the Photo. Where have you seen this photo
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https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FCCC%2FHO140%2F35%2F351&parentid=TNA%2FCCC%2FHO140%2FPH3%2F049247
FindMyPast have many records under institutions & organisations.
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There are registers of prisoners at Pentonville during the period you mentioned at the National Archives at Kew. They are in the PCOM 2 series. I don't know whether the registers are on-line anywhere.
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The photo mentioned
Photograph Album Of Prisoners: Pentonville Prison
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FCCC%2FPCOM2%2F098%2F00122&parentid=TNA%2FCCC%2FPH5%2FMX%2F0182920
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The photo mentioned
Photograph Album Of Prisoners: Pentonville Prison
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FCCC%2FPCOM2%2F098%2F00122&parentid=TNA%2FCCC%2FPH5%2FMX%2F0182920
Yes thats the photo that I saw.
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There is a likely candidate for him in 1871 an Ag Lab bn Tyd St Mary. living Surfleet, Spalding
RG10
Piece number 3320
Folio 15
Page 6
I haven't no but that's a valid point and one I've certainly seen before.
I suppose I discounted it because my misread of the dates would put him still in prison but now I know he would more than likely be out in July 1870. Clearly after that newspaper report his wife wasn't going to have him back considering he'd sooner go to prison!
Don't think thats him as he was born Roydon in Norfolk which he has on the 51 and 61 Census returns.
As the form would have been filled in by the head of the house it is possible that he just listed his normal place of residence as his place of birth. Have you checked other census to see if the one bn Tyd is on them
Is the name actually printed on the Photo. Where have you seen this photo
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I hope that the snippet images attached will be of assistance to you.
(images courtesy of Find My Past)
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https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fccc%2fpcom3%2f726%2f00524&parentid=tna%2fccc%2f2b%2fpcom3%2f01451155
That is the link to his prison record. Scroll through the many pages, it has a lot of information, including the prison number which matches the photo and names his wife as Sarah.
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Wow thank you for that. I really didn't expect me afternoon to end up down this road :o :o
So we now have to assume, one of 2 things - the death and subsequent burial is not him OR he only served 10 years of that last prison sentence.
So now just to find out whether he served all of those 15 years in Norwich or whether he was moved to Pentonville and that photo is him.
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The prison records tell you.
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A BIG update
I messaged the owner of the tree who had the photo of John. He is the 3x great grandson of John. He has loads of information that he is going to send me concerning John. He also has information about the communications he had with his family during that time.
Thank you all once again for your help