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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Vickihuk on Wednesday 18 September 24 16:38 BST (UK)
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Hello all
I am fairly new to researching my family tree, but quite happy with success so far. However, I have come up against a blocker and I just can't think of a logical explanation...
My Great Grandad Herbert Hargreaves, born April 1885 - I found his birth certificate and I know it is correct, as the birth date matches up to the 1939 register (where I can see his children, and residence etc). The location also matches. The birth certificate shows that there was no Father, and his Mother was never married (no former name). Interestingly, it looks like his Mother was illiterate as the informant was "mark of mother".
I also got a copy of Herbert's marriage certificate and it states his Father was "William Hargreaves" - could this be an out and out lie?
I then did research on the 1881 census and found information on a whole family from the same area, with William and Alice Hargreaves listed as their parents. On the 1891 census - Herbert appears as a 6 year old boy!
Stay with me....
I researched all of the siblings and even though the census's state that Alice and William were their parents, their birth certificates all showed that their actual parents were George and Sarah Hargreaves (formerly Greenwood) - all with the exception of Herbert! There was even another sibling (Ernest) born after Herbert, with George and Sarah as the parents. In 1901, all of the siblings including Herbert were living with the eldest sister - Annie.
This is where my head is going - Could Alice Hargreaves have been the sister to George and William. For whatever reason, George and Sarah's children lived with Alice and William (Herbert saw William as his father).
Or does anyone else have any theories? This is really doing my head in!
Thanks,
Vicki
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What was the name of Herbert's mother according to his birth certificate?
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Can you please direct us to the censuses you are looking at.
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I've not seen the census records but from the information in your post, perhaps William and George were brothers and the census could have recorded all the children living in the household as William and Alice's when some or all might have been their nephews/nieces instead.
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Could you have the wrong family in the census?
Here is ‘Herb’ Hargreaves in 1891 with parents George and Sarah and several siblings.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QBKB-NW2
Herbert and Ernest both show as 5 yrs
Ancestry have the family as Hargraves and they live in Rochdale.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ show the mother as Greenwood.
There is a Herbert Whitehead Hargreaves b 1885 with mother’s name Greenwood.
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There is a Herbert Whitehead Hargreaves born in 1885 who died in Rochdale age 36 in 1921 but the OP had them alive in 1939?
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George and Sarah with the older children are at 1881 4111/74/20 at 7, Buckley Place.
Children then are: Richard, Annie, Ellen and Emily.
There is a William and Alice Hargreaves in Bury with children Nelly and Emily at 1881 3860
Folio 93, Page number 10
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Was your Herbert b Bury, Lancashire - 1885 with no mother’s maiden name GRO
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There's also a Herbert Hargreaves b c1884 who died in Bury in 1892
Slightly worryingly there's a career criminal b Bury c1886 who has a number of aliases including Herbert Hargreaves
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Any Hargreaves witnesses to the marriage who might help narrow down his family?
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If I have the correct one in 1939, it would seem to be the Herbert Hargreaves who married Rachel Snaith in 1910 in Bury - Register Office /Registrar attended.
The couple had several children and can be seen in the 1921 index.
This looks like him in 1911 - although birth year is out slightly
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWB7-5VL
Vickihuk, in case you have not used Family Search, you need to sign in but it is free.
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I then did research on the 1881 census and found information on a whole family from the same area, with William and Alice Hargreaves listed as their parents. On the 1891 census - Herbert appears as a 6 year old boy!
Who is this Herbert living with in 1891?
Debra :)
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What was the name of Herbert's mother according to his birth certificate?
Hi, his Mother was Alice Hargreaves - no former name. I know this is the correct birth certificate as the DOB matches exactly to the correct information on the 1939 register
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Could you have the wrong family in the census?
Here is ‘Herb’ Hargreaves in 1891 with parents George and Sarah and several siblings.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QBKB-NW2
Herbert and Ernest both show as 5 yrs
Ancestry have the family as Hargraves and they live in Rochdale.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ show the mother as Greenwood.
There is a Herbert Whitehead Hargreaves b 1885 with mother’s name Greenwood.
I am not beginning to think this is the case. However, that still doesn't explain why Herbert didn;t have a father on his birth certificate, but he did "William" on his marriage cert to his wife. Was it common to lie?
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There is a Herbert Whitehead Hargreaves born in 1885 who died in Rochdale age 36 in 1921 but the OP had them alive in 1939?
Thank you for your reply - unfortunately, this is not him as I know he was still alive when my Dad was born - I think I found his death certificate and that was 1958
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Was your Herbert b Bury, Lancashire - 1885 with no mother’s maiden name GRO
Yes that is definitely him! Correct date of birth, and place
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There's also a Herbert Hargreaves b c1884 who died in Bury in 1892
Slightly worryingly there's a career criminal b Bury c1886 who has a number of aliases including Herbert Hargreaves
That would have been exciting wouldn't it - but no, that his not him. He was around in the 50's.
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Any Hargreaves witnesses to the marriage who might help narrow down his family?
What a great shout. I have just checked and one of the witnesses was signed "the mark of Alice Howard". Now, the informant on his birth certificate was signed "the mark of Alice Hargreaves, mother" - could this be the same Alice, now married??!!
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If I have the correct one in 1939, it would seem to be the Herbert Hargreaves who married Rachel Snaith in 1910 in Bury - Register Office /Registrar attended.
The couple had several children and can be seen in the 1921 index.
This looks like him in 1911 - although birth year is out slightly
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWB7-5VL
Vickihuk, in case you have not used Family Search, you need to sign in but it is free.
Thank you! Yes, this is 100% my family :)
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I then did research on the 1881 census and found information on a whole family from the same area, with William and Alice Hargreaves listed as their parents. On the 1891 census - Herbert appears as a 6 year old boy!
Who is this Herbert living with in 1891?
Debra :)
Debra - this is an area where I am struggling, I just can't seem to find this
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Ok thanks for everyone’s advice. I have now come to the conclusion that I have been looking at the wrong family in the census. I had to order another birth certificate for a different Herbert to confirm this. Turns out there was another Herbert Hargreaves born just a few days before my Herbert!
Ok back to the drawing board.
So I now know, my Herbert was born illegitimately to Alice Hargreaves on Apr 27 1885, in Bury.
He listed William Hargreaves as his Father on his wedding cert to Rachel Snaith - I can only assume that this was a lot to cover up illegitimacy??
My trail runs dead here - I cannot find any other information on census or anything about Alice Hargreaves
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Hi there,
To answer your earlier quesiton, it is common to see a father's name at marriage even when it wasn't on the birth certificate - this could be a stepfather's name, actual bio father's name, grandfather, or just something he'd been told over the years.
Now, as to Hargreaves/Howard - there is a possible marriage in Bury in 1889 for an Alice Hargreaves to a William Howard. I think this might be them in 1891, with Herbert's age listed as 9 but maybe should be 6.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7HGQ-PN2
The baby William can be found under Howard, the older girl I think was born in 1882 as Rosanna Hargreaves (Rose Hannah/Rosannah/etc)
In later years it seems Herbert is no longer with them.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KD-PS1
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KD-PS1
So in this case, he probably listed his father as "William" because it was his stepfather's name, and you may find him using either Hargreaves or Howard on different records.
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John SNAITH, the son of Rachel (but possibly not Herbert) is with Alice and Rosannah in 1911. That is why he is crossed off the census with Herbert and Rachel.
Perhaps this birth...
SNAITH, JOHN
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in BOLTON Volume 08C Page 518
Debra :)
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Wow - all I can say is wow you clever people.
That is definitely who I am looking for. I found the birth certificates of all siblings and mothers name is Hargreaves!
I have also ordered the marriage certificate for Alice and William - hopefully that will reveal the next level of the tree.
Now here is a question I may never find the answer to - I wonder if William was Herbert’s father and they were just unmarried at the time. Or… was that is step father.
Thank you all so much - can’t tell you how much this has been bugging me!
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Details on certificates are only as good as the information supplied. It was not at all unusual for a male family member or a completely fictitious person to be named as father on a marriage, simply to conceal illegitimacy.
My mother in law was illegitimate, when she married my father in law there is a blank space where her Father's name would have been. They later divorced and she remarried, on that certificate is the name of the man who was the father in the foster family who brought her up. We know he definitely was not her father as she didn't know who her birth mother was until I ordered her full birth certificate, she only had the shortened version which just gives the child's name, date and town of birth.
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Details on certificates are only as good as the information supplied. It was not at all unusual for a male family member or a completely fictitious person to be named as father on a marriage, simply to conceal illegitimacy.
My mother in law was illegitimate, when she married my father in law there is a blank space where her Father's name would have been. They later divorced and she remarried, on that certificate is the name of the man who was the father in the foster family who brought her up. We know he definitely was not her father as she didn't know who her birth mother was until I ordered her full birth certificate, she only had the shortened version which just gives the child's name, date and town of birth.
Thank you for the advice!
I noticed that you are related to Duncan’s in Kent - I am too, wonder if there is a connection?!