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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: emjsw on Saturday 14 September 24 22:05 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I wondered if anyone might know where residents of Islington might have had a will proved other than the Court of Canterbury please?
I am trying to find the will of Thomas Knyffe of Isolden c. 1508. I can't find it in searches of The National Archives, Ancestry, FindMyPast, the Court of Hustings or the London metropolitan archives. I am not sure which other courts residents of Islington might have used.
It might be that he was catalogued with a typo, or his will was accidentally skipped over or lost but I am pretty sure that:
1) The will at some point existed:
"1508 the executors of Knyff, Thomas, of Iseldon, Middx, gentleman, (Darset, William, of London, gent; Bayly, Richard, of St John Strete, Middx, yeoman), defendants in Common Pleas." https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40no983
2) That he existed:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/afb8da94-b233-4e6e-be8d-71731af7156f
Best wishes, Emma
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In addition to the PCC, a will could be proved in the Consistory Court, Commissary Court, or Archdeaconry Court of London. These are at the London Metropolitan Archives, and copies on microfilm also at Guildhall Library (or at least were there when I looked about 15-20 years ago). Only the Consistory Court records go back to include a will from 1508.
https://www.thelondonarchives.org/your-research/research-guides/wills-in-london-middlesex-and-surrey-before-1858
The most likely explanation is that there was a will but it has not survived. Moth and rust doth corrupt, and thieves break through and steal.
There are some records of Knyff or Knyfe, Thomas, of Iseldon, gent, in Common Pleas and Kings Bench.
1492, Common Pleas
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no919/CP40no919Act.htm
1493 Kings Bench
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/KB27/926
1496 Kings Bench
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/KB27/939
.
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In theory, Islington lay in the area covered by the Commissary Court of London. The British Record Society published, as Volume 86:
Index to Testamentary Records in the Commissary Court of London, vol. II: 1489-1570, edited by Marc Fitch.
So you could try checking that, or an online equivalent, looking out for variant spellings of Knyff.
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I don't have access to that index for the Commissary Court. There's only a limited view on Internet Archive. On the London Archives page linked above it says their records for that court go back to 1524. But I have a will from there dating to 1389. I think I must have transcribed it at the Guildhall Library.
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The British Record Society volume which I referred to above is a common book, so perhaps a Rootschatter has a copy. If an entry is found in the index, I suppose it doesn't necessarily mean that the will has survived, but it seems worth a peep.
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In addition to the PCC, a will could be proved in the Consistory Court, Commissary Court, or Archdeaconry Court of London. These are at the London Metropolitan Archives, and copies on microfilm also at Guildhall Library (or at least were there when I looked about 15-20 years ago). Only the Consistory Court records go back to include a will from 1508.
https://www.thelondonarchives.org/your-research/research-guides/wills-in-london-middlesex-and-surrey-before-1858
The most likely explanation is that there was a will but it has not survived. Moth and rust doth corrupt, and thieves break through and steal.
There are some records of Knyff or Knyfe, Thomas, of Iseldon, gent, in Common Pleas and Kings Bench.
1492, Common Pleas
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no919/CP40no919Act.htm
1493 Kings Bench
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/KB27/926
1496 Kings Bench
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/KB27/939
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Hi,
Thanks very much for sharing some other options for me to look at, I will look into the consistory court.
Thanks also for the links, all have been really helpful, particularly the last one as the reason I wanted to look at the will was to work out the relationship between Thomas Knyffe and Thomas Pym (Thomas Pymme refers to a cousin Knyffe that left him property in Islington in his 1549 will, but he calls is nephew a cousin too, so it is a loose term).
Secondly I am trying to work out how Thomas Pymme, Thomas Pymme alias Frere and Thomas Frere (sadler) in my tree are connected. The last link puts all of these names together!!! First time I have seen it despite all of the hours spent at various record offices!!! I am guessing through marrying but have yet to find proof.
I appreciate your help.
Best wishes,
Emma
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In theory, Islington lay in the area covered by the Commissary Court of London. The British Record Society published, as Volume 86:
Index to Testamentary Records in the Commissary Court of London, vol. II: 1489-1570, edited by Marc Fitch.
So you could try checking that, or an online equivalent, looking out for variant spellings of Knyff.
Thank you very much for the names of the books that I could take a look at to see if he is indexed, I haven't found an online version yet but the library in my nearest city has one for reference so I will try and get there to find out 😊
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The British Record Society volume which I referred to above is a common book, so perhaps a Rootschatter has a copy. If an entry is found in the index, I suppose it doesn't necessarily mean that the will has survived, but it seems worth a peep.
Thank you, I will see if I can post a look up request incase someone has a copy of it. If his name is in there I will contact the Guildhall as if they don't have the original, they might have a copy book. Thanks for your help.
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The Thomas Pym with the will in 1549/50 must be the son or grandson of the one in 1496.
There's a will of Thomas Pym of High Wycombe, 1505
https://shop.buckscc.gov.uk/s4s/WhereILive/Council?pageId=2347&pid=36803787-1a6a-4c46-bbfb-a5ad00f89b6b&supId=c988f85e-be98-4bf3-b184-a5ad00efd350&bcgId=fcea1611-2a26-4a1d-a4a6-b480f7423e14
In 1502 he is Common Pleas:
Pymme, Thomas, of Chepyng Wycombe, yeoman
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40no959
And again in Common Pleas, in 1512, with his son:
Pymme, Thomas, son of Pymme, Thomas, senior, of Chepyng Wycombe, Bucks, gent
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no998/CP40no998Def.htm
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Of possible interest is the following:
The Certificate of Musters for Buckinghamshire in 1522, edited by A.C. Chibnall, Buckinghamshire Record Society, 1973, contains this entry under High Wycombe on page 267:
"Thos. Pime tenaunte to ye colledge of Windesour £5 -0 -0" [value of lands]
A Thos. Pym is also listed at Great Kimble, on page 91.
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FamilySearch has London Commissary Court Index to Will Extracts of the Registered Copy Wills, 1374-1521
The will in question doesn't seem to be there.
There are some possibles mentioned in other wills. They have extracts.
Will of Johnes Knyfe, of London, 1469
Wife Matild (executrix)
Son Thome
Also listed is Thome Pym of Wycombe, Bucks
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9HD-H
Johes Cowey, 1476, desires to be buried in Islington.
Thome Knyffe, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J6-C91Q-K
Thomas Knyff one of the executors named in the will of John Engelond of Iselden, Middx, 1485
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9JB-S
Index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-CFWD
Absracts Films
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/819185
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OK, we have a disaster :(
Looking at the Commissary will abstracts on FamilySearch, they have them for 1489 - 1502
Ending here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J6-C91K-R
Then on the next image we leap to 1516 - 1521
The LMA say this
Commissary Court of London (London Division), 1374-1857
Surviving records include:
Original wills 1523-1857, with gaps (DL/C/B/005/MS09172) - On Ancestry
Registers of wills 1374-1857, with gaps (DL/C/B/004/MS09171) - must be consulted on microfilm after 1600
Act books 1496-1858, with gaps (DL/C/B/001/MS09168) - must be consulted on microfilm after 1600
And delving further in the LMA catalogue there does appear to be a possible gap in the registers of copy wills (as per the FamilySearch abstracts)
Register of wills 1489-1502, Ref DL/C/B/004/MS09171/008
Registers of wills, 1516-1521, Ref DL/C/B/004/MS09171/009
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And again in the LDS catalogue on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/283866
Probate records, 1374-1857
Church of England. Diocese of London. London Division. Commissary Court
910 microfilm reels (gosh!)
"There are no original or register copy wills for the years 1502-1516"
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Even if Thomas Knyff's will can't be found, based on the information in this and other threads, it looks like we have a fairly good biography for him:
- born about 1450, the son of John Knyfe, of St Sepulchre, corser (horse dealer) and Matilda/Maude (will 1469)
- son in law of John Cowey of Islington, married to either Agnes or Elizabeth (will 1476)
- lived in Islington through the 1490s (Common Pleas)
- died by 1508, probably a couple years before that. The case in Common Pleas is somewhat involved and had probably been going on for some time. So, say, died in 1506.
London. Command to the sheriff to take goods that had been of Thomas Knyff, of Iseldon, Middx, gentilman, in the hands of William Darset, of London, gent, and Richard Bayly, of St John Strete, Middx, yeoman, executors of Thomas Knyff, both for a debt of 10 marks which Thomas Ryche, of London, mercer, has recovered against them, and for 36s 8d damages for non-payment of the debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H7/CP40no983/bCP40no983dorses/IMG_0795.htm
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The Thomas Pym with the will in 1549/50 must be the son or grandson of the one in 1496.
There's a will of Thomas Pym of High Wycombe, 1505
https://shop.buckscc.gov.uk/s4s/WhereILive/Council?pageId=2347&pid=36803787-1a6a-4c46-bbfb-a5ad00f89b6b&supId=c988f85e-be98-4bf3-b184-a5ad00efd350&bcgId=fcea1611-2a26-4a1d-a4a6-b480f7423e14
In 1502 he is Common Pleas:
Pymme, Thomas, of Chepyng Wycombe, yeoman
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40no959
And again in Common Pleas, in 1512, with his son:
Pymme, Thomas, son of Pymme, Thomas, senior, of Chepyng Wycombe, Bucks, gent
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no998/CP40no998Def.htm
Hi Vance,
Thanks for this, I think you might be right about Thomas Pymme d 1549 being a grandson, there is a record somewhere of a Thomas Pymme who dies in 1524 and I am currently trying to fin it again, I think this one might be son of Thomas Pymme d.1505 and father of Thomas Pymme d.1549.
Thomas Pymme d.1549 was buried at St Mary's Islington and had his coat of arms on his tombe, dexter Pymme, sinister Porter. The c.1505 Thomas married Katherine Porter, daughter of John. Other than the record I can't find I can find no other evidence for the potential in between 1524 Thomas Pymme.
Perhaps the Thomas who left a will in 1505 is the one mentioned in the common please 1502 and the potential 1524 Thomas is will the 1549 Thomas in the 1512 record.
All the best Emma
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Of possible interest is the following:
The Certificate of Musters for Buckinghamshire in 1522, edited by A.C. Chibnall, Buckinghamshire Record Society, 1973, contains this entry under High Wycombe on page 267:
"Thos. Pime tenaunte to ye colledge of Windesour £5 -0 -0" [value of lands]
A Thos. Pym is also listed at Great Kimble, on page 91.
Hi Watson,
This is great, thank you, it is really helpful with building up as much information as possible. Thank you very much for your help and the time you have given up to help me.
Best wishes, Emma
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FamilySearch has London Commissary Court Index to Will Extracts of the Registered Copy Wills, 1374-1521
The will in question doesn't seem to be there.
There are some possibles mentioned in other wills. They have extracts.
Will of Johnes Knyfe, of London, 1469
Wife Matild (executrix)
Son Thome
Also listed is Thome Pym of Wycombe, Bucks
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9HD-H
Johes Cowey, 1476, desires to be buried in Islington.
Thome Knyffe, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3J6-C91Q-K
Thomas Knyff one of the executors named in the will of John Engelond of Iselden, Middx, 1485
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-C9JB-S
Index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3J6-CFWD
Absracts Films
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/819185
Hi Jonw65,
This is fantastic, thanks ever so much indeed, I am never quite sure how to access the stuff on Family Search and it was great to see these images. The information contained with in them is really helpful and gives other search access points.
The index is also helpful, I have been trying to find whether any abstracts exist on Family Search for John Knyf 1464 and Johem Knyff 1459 but I don't think it goes back before 1465!
It is such a shame that there is a gap covering the year 1506/8!!!! Thanks for confirming this by looking at the records at LMA also. It is very kind of you to give up your time to do this for me, I really appreciate it.
I once had a situation where there was a gap in the wills proved at the University Court in Oxford, they had been indexed but over time had been lost. In the late 1800s someone had published an index of these wills. The archivist found the original hand written index manuscript and there was a note next to the missing wills to say they had been copied into the Archdeacon's book. The archivist found the book and the wills are found again!!!! I am holding out hope something similar might happen here and have written to the LMA/LA to see if they could look for something similar, you never know.
All the best Emma
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Even if Thomas Knyff's will can't be found, based on the information in this and other threads, it looks like we have a fairly good biography for him:
- born about 1450, the son of John Knyfe, of St Sepulchre, corser (horse dealer) and Matilda/Maude (will 1469)
- son in law of John Cowey of Islington, married to either Agnes or Elizabeth (will 1476)
- lived in Islington through the 1490s (Common Pleas)
- died by 1508, probably a couple years before that. The case in Common Pleas is somewhat involved and had probably been going on for some time. So, say, died in 1506.
London. Command to the sheriff to take goods that had been of Thomas Knyff, of Iseldon, Middx, gentilman, in the hands of William Darset, of London, gent, and Richard Bayly, of St John Strete, Middx, yeoman, executors of Thomas Knyff, both for a debt of 10 marks which Thomas Ryche, of London, mercer, has recovered against them, and for 36s 8d damages for non-payment of the debt.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H7/CP40no983/bCP40no983dorses/IMG_0795.htm
Dear Vance,
Thank you for this great summary and positive message, with your help I have so much information about them now and can get a feel for what they might have been like and also have the names of people around them. I am ever so grateful for all of the time you have kindly given in finding all of this information to help me out.
Best wishes,
Emma