RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: WestOz on Saturday 14 September 24 03:08 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone, 1st time post here; it's been a long time since I was a member of any online forum, I hope to keep within the rules.
So, as per subject, and before proceeding, are members allowed to post requests for gravesite photos? I ask because I have had very few requests on findagrave fulfilled (where I am also a volunteer) and I wish to reach out on here if it's permitted.
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Good Morning and Welcome.
Of course,you can.
Just give us some details and we'll see who's around to help.
Obviously the Isle of Skye might be a bit of a stretch but we will do what what we can.
Ciderdrinker
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As a Find a Grave volunteer yourself, you won't need to be told that it's pretty hard to find graves in some cemeteries and StP&I is one of the more difficult ones: much of it impenetrably overgrown, modern reuse of graves elsewhere, and lots of common (aka public or pauper) graves, compounded by poorly-kept registers in some periods, especially pre-1900. I believe it's covered by Deceasedonline; a pay site, but there's free information which may indicate whether it's worth continuing, mainly that if there's more than half a dozen burials in the same plot, it's either a posh mausoleum or a common grave unlikely to be marked. There are maps free online which locate the squares and you may get no more from the ones Deceasedonline sell -- in only a few cemeteries do they have detailed plot-by plot ones.
I've been there a number of times in the past and can check my photos in case you're very lucky, or at least guess the state of particular squares. There are active Find a Grave volunteers in that part of London.
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Thanks for replies. Finding gravesites is not such a problem here in Australia, being a big country with small population in contrast to the UK. I certainly do appreciate the info you have posted and I will keep it in mind.
I am optimistic that my relatives' grave markers may still exist, as they were quite well off and I'm sure it would be a paid family plot. From DeceasedOnline I have obtained the burial records of my great-grandfather Daniel Harper (08/05/1855 - 17/08/1903) and his father (my GG GF) Josiah Harper (05/1822 - 13/10/1904) who died a year after son Daniel. Both are buried in Plot# Z.3/1/10637 in Islington& St Pancras. His nephew Sidney Charles Harper was later mayor of Islington.
I have created a memorial on FindaGrave for both persons, here is the link for Daniel: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/274269903/daniel-harper (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/274269903/daniel-harper)
I hope this is enough info; I would be very grateful for any help.
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Further to the above, DeceasedOnline reveals that Daniel's nephew Sidney Charles Harper (24/01/1878 - 03/12/1939) is also buried at I&SP, however there are no plot details recorded this time. Perhaps he is also interred in the above plot for Daniel & Josiah?
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I've been there a number of times in the past and can check my photos in case you're very lucky, or at least guess the state of particular squares. There are active Find a Grave volunteers in that part of London.
Hi Chris, can I ask how you went with your photo checks?
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The short answer is that Z.3 is in a part of the cemetery I haven't previously visited and so have no photos. I had planned a visit on Sunday afternoon but black clouds forbode heavy rain which has deluged other parts of the country in the past week, so discretion became the better part of valour.
Long version: Problem reports on Find a Grave requests in Z.3 state that it was used for "pauper" burials, all unmarked, and that in recent years it has been combined with Z.4, renumbered as such, relandscaped, and used for scattering of ashes. However, all is not lost, as the updated map shows two small areas still labelled Z.3 beside the roads where it was the common practice to put the posh graves. Others were hidden behind, often with not even cheap miniature gravestones allowed.
I'll try again when the weather improves. We may not have much space for graves in this country, but we do have lots of rain!
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Chris, thanks ever so much for doing this for me; regardless of eventual outcome, I'll be able to have closure either way as I've exhausted all other avenues of research. As I mentioned before, the Harpers were well-heeled so there's a good chance that they are interned in the "posh" plots that you refer to.
Hopefully you get a few days of sunshine soon!
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Hi WestOz,
Welcome to Rootschat...
To help you visualise what Chris has explained, and for your general interest/records, the updated map that Chris mentioned can be seen via this link from the website of Islington & Camden Cemetery Services (ICCS):
https://iccslondon.co.uk/app/uploads/2017/05/ST-pancras-Site-Map-updated.pdf (https://iccslondon.co.uk/app/uploads/2017/05/ST-pancras-Site-Map-updated.pdf)
You might need to enlarge the map (by pressing the + tool just above it) to see the area labels because they're pretty small, especially the one for Z3A.
If you locate the crematorium (on the right-hand side of the map) then look just south of that, you'll see an area labelled Z3B which, as Chris said, is alongside the road (High View Road). Just south of that, you'll find Z4A and Z4B; and just south of Z4A, on the other side of the road (Raleigh Road, which turns off from High View Road/Parkers Road*), you'll see a relatively small area with a tiny label identifying it as Z3A. (Again, right next to the road, as Chris pointed out.)
* I think they might have skipped an apostrophe - maybe it should be Parker's rather than "Parkers".
I do hope your ancestors' grave memorial is still there, and easily accessible, to make the task straightforward for Chris, and to ensure a positive outcome for you.
Best wishes,
theirchild
PS: Well done, Chris - you're an absolute star for offering to visit the cemetery on WestOz's behalf!
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To complicate it further, there is a small rectangular Z3C section between Z7 and Z12 on the corner of High View Road and St Lukes Path (sic; their apostrophe key must be stuck). However on what I think is the earliest map I've seen (from the CWGC site), it's labelled Z9, so this may not be applicable to early 1900s burials. Worth checking, though, if all else fails, as also is Section 3Z in the St Pancras part of the combined cemetery.
I avoided giving detailed location information before, partly because of the complications, partly out of laziness, and partly because on previous occasions I've been pipped at the post by someone else (once after I'd spent some time weeding a grave for its photograph). But if anyone who's close enough to get there in the brief sunny intervals between the deluges wishes to do so, please let me know. Rain is currently predicted for this weekend too.
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Quote from Chris Doran:
“…there is a small rectangular Z3C section between Z7 and Z12…”
Well spotted, Chris! I missed that.
Quote from Chris Doran:
“…their apostrophe key must be stuck…”
It certainly looks that way…
Quote from Chris Doran:
“I avoided giving detailed location information before…partly because on previous occasions I've been pipped at the post by someone else (once after I’d spent some time weeding a grave for its photograph).”
My apologies, Chris; I didn’t intend to undermine your efforts; I was just trying to help WestOz and thought my post would serve to complement yours. I didn’t realise that, for good reason, your post was a little cautious – otherwise I would have held back from posting. Someone else jumping in and stealing your thunder, after you’ve done all the groundwork, is completely out of order and so inconsiderate. I had no idea that another Rootschatter would stoop that low.
Best wishes,
theirchild
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It wasn't done deliberately, as neither of us knew the other was going to the cemetery on the same day (and maybe if we had, neither of us would have gone). Just one of the hazards with requests made on public forums.
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I'm glad it wasn't deliberate, Chris...still frustrating, though, I imagine. Hence your cautiousness this time.
I'm sorry for inadvertently letting the cat out of the bag.
All the best,
theirchild
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Well, thanks to info posted here so far, I went onto Google maps and found a lot of the roads within I&SP have been mapped! (In 2018 only). I went to street view and actually found the headstone for Daniel's nephew Sidney Charles Harper and his wife Florence Rosa Harper by overlaying the cemetery map over the google map to pinpoint Z3C in High View Rd, west side :). Burials for each were in 1939 and 1974 respectively; I can only just make out the names but not the whole inscriptions. 2nd photo shows facing west.
Still no luck for Daniel or Josiah, though... as it seems the gravestone plot sections are roughly in date order, I'm guessing they may be in the overgrown bush (that Chris mentioned) immediately south of, and behind the roadside graves in Z3a where Parkers and Raleigh Rds meet at the hairpin corner, if they still exist.
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A preliminary report; more to follow: I had about an hour before the rain started (fortunately not a deluge, only a slight misting). The situation is as WestOz found it on his drive-by. I have better photos of Sidney & Florence's grave, but that's all. The whole of Z3B, opposite, has been cleared of old monuments and is now just ashes plots, renumbered, so no use in finding previous grave positions. Some new graves have appeared further along the lefthand side of St Paul's Path in Z3C. Likewise along the roadside in Z3A with a couple of older gravestones left behind them, but not for Daniel or Josiah, and impenetrably dense undergrowth behind that.
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Chris, thanks ever so much for your unselfish efforts... I look forward to better pics of Sidney/Florence's headstone and transcription, at least it is a partial win. Even the 2018 Google pics from 6 years ago show heavy overgrowth as you mentioned and I'm guessing you need to be careful as there are probably by-laws in place preventing people from doing excessive gardening or anything else, especially in an inner city cemetery such as this one with what I imagine to have heritage considerations and protection laws so close to London CBD.
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Hi Chris... My sincere thanks for the quality photos you have taken; I have only just realised that you posted them up on the FindaGrave memorial for Sidney and Florence ;D I have taken down my Street View screenshot in lieu of your much better ones.
If ever you are in Western Australia down Bunbury way, look me up and I'll shout you a pint!