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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: EdithKennedy21 on Tuesday 10 September 24 09:11 BST (UK)
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Hello
Wondering if anyone can help re a query my cousin based in Canada has asked me for help with
I have checked IGI and Ancestry but with so little info it is hard to discover any official records
Helen Ryan born circa 1892 Newcastle upon Tyne married an man of Italian Origin who was named ‘Dora Rennie’
Rennie being the surname he was known by after changing his Italian surname
His parents were Antonio and Maria - no surname known
After marrying Helen and Dora lived in Dundee for some time
Sadly Dora Rennie was killed in WW1
Helen emigrated with her family in 1927 to Toronto which is the area where my cousin lives
She has sourced records for 1931 showing the children and Helen living near to a sister in Ontario
Have asked if marriage took place in Newcastle
Still awaiting an answer on this as may then get a date for marriage
Many thanks
Edith A
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The marriage took place in Scotland which is good news since Scottish marriage registrations lists name of both parents (not just the fathers like English ones)-
RENNIE DORA & RYAN HELEN BROWN 1909 282 / 3 / 33 St Clement
Sadly Dora Rennie was killed in WW1
Doesn't appear under that name in CWGC database-
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/
Scotland's People also show four children born 1911-1915 in St. Andrew dist. (Aberdeen)- did all of them go to Canada with their mother and stay in Canada?
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Wow
Thanks
That was quick
Is there any surname for parents?
Much appreciated
Edith A
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Sorry, should have explained that the details are from the index and you need to register on the site, buy a few credits then click on 'FULL' to see the actual record.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
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One of the children was Dora born 1914 and there's a Dora Rennie (female) marriage in Scotland in 1939. Perhaps just a coincidence.
There are also newspaper reports in 1932 of alleged abduction of a 17 year old girl Dora Rennie. Again maybe just a coincidence.
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Thank you again
Did wonder if you had used Scotland People
Many thanks for looking and letting me know what you sourced
Much appreciated
Edith A
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Hi again
Noticed a reply I did not respond to earlier
Apologies
Mother and four children all in Toronto Canada as was another relative
The lady’s now elderly Granddaughter lives in Barrie, and my cousin attends the same Church as this lady trying to finding data on her Italian Grandfather
One of Dora’s Brothers stayed in Dundee - no name for this person but could ask
It could be that the Dora Rennie - Female - was named in honour of the male Dora but have nothing to say that is correct
I thank you for all your searches on my behalf after posting on the Forum
Edith A
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A Dora Rennie served with the 2nd Battalion Scottish Rifles in WW1, and the Hampshire Regiment.
Service numbers being 33113 and 56479 respectively.
You can register and view his medal card for free at:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4826532
Also on the Silver War Badge roll, showing discharged from Hampshire Regiment in September 1918, aged 29, seemingly due to some form of 'sickness', judging by the index stating:
"Cause of discharge: Para of King's Regulation 392 xvi Sickness (a))"
So, was still alive.
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I couldn't find a death in 1917 for Dora Rennie , although I did find the medal card and also an entry on the Silver War Badge Rolls. I found entries on the Electoral Rolls for Dora and Mrs Ellen Rennie living at 41 Church Street , Dundee up until 1926. I also found Helen Rennie , aged 37 , of 41 Church Street , Dundee on a passenger list with 4 children going to Quebec from Scotland 23 Apr 1927 on the ship Montcalm. Is this the correct family ?
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..deleted, as crossed with reply immediately above this.
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Both Dora and Ellen (Helen), are showing at the Church Street address in Electoral Registers of the early 1920s, up to 1926.
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Have found a death certificate for Dora Rennie in 1960 :
Dora RENNIE ( married to Helen RYAN ) died 25 July 1960 of 41 Church Street , Dundee
Father : Agostino RENNIE farmer ( deceased )
Mother : Maria RENNIE ( formerly BIANCHI ) deceased
Edit - forgot to include age at death - he was 72.
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Have found a death certificate for Dora Rennie in 1960 :
Dora RENNIE ( married to Helen RYAN ) died 25 July 1960 at 41 Church Street , Dundee
Father : Agostino RENNIE farmer ( deceased )
Mother : Maria RENNIE ( formerly BIANCHI ) deceased
Edit - forgot to include age at death - he was 72.
Well that certainly explains why he wasn't listed on CWGC site!
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Have found a death certificate for Dora Rennie in 1960 :
Dora RENNIE ( married to Helen RYAN ) died 25 July 1960 at 41 Church Street , Dundee
Father : Agostino RENNIE farmer ( deceased )
Mother : Maria RENNIE ( formerly BIANCHI ) deceased
Edit - forgot to include age at death - he was 72.
Would you mind reporting it to Scotlandspeople as mis-indexed, thanks. I saw that death, but it is indexed as F for Female. It was kind of you to chance using your credits on it for EdithKennedy21, and good that it was indeed the male Dora. No wonder he was still appearing in some records after 1918. Perhaps whatever "sickness" caused his discharge, meant that before she emigrated, his wife took on running the household, given she was named on the Valuation Rolls as Tennant/Occupier rather than him.
RENNIE
DORA
72
F
1960
301 / 25
Liff, Benvie and Invergowrie
Sad, though, that for whatever reason, family members/friends were, it would seem, led to believe he had died in WW1. At 1927, the children were old enough to know their father had not been killed in WW1, but perhaps went along with this 'story' once in Canada.
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Reported to ScotlandsPeople as suggested.
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Reported to ScotlandsPeople as suggested.
:)
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1931 Canada census, Helen is claiming to be a widow.
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.redirect?app=census&id=81854824&lang=eng
Helen's first two children James (1910) and George (1911) died as infants. Children with her in 1931 are Andrew (1913), Dora/Doreen (1914), John (1915) and Thomasina (1920). She is recorded as Thomas Ina in 1931.
Looking at the indexes they may have had another 3 infant deaths in the 1920s.
Debra :)
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In 1921 the family is indexed as KENNIE in Dundee. There is an extra child named James who is an infant under 1 year. Possibly...
Birth
RENNIE, JAMES EDWARD
1921
282 / 3 / 542
St Andrew (Dundee)
Death
RENNIE, JAMES EDWARD
aged 1
Mother: LYAN
1922
282 / 3 / 827
St Andrew (Dundee)
Debra :)
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The family appear to have been transcribed as Kennie in the 1921 census in Dundee St Andrew R D. as Dundee has stated ( was typing when Dundee posted).
Dora Kennie 33
Dora Kennie 6
James Kennie 0
John Kennie 5
Helen Kennie 31
Andrew Kennie 8
Thomasina Kennie 1
Valuation rolls index transcription has Mrs Dora Rennie as tenant/ occupier at 41 Church Street in 1920 and 1925 but not in 1930, 1935 or 1940.
William
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Dundee Courier 17 Oct 1917
Dundee Seaforth Wins Military Medal
Private D Rennie , Seaforth Highlanders, whose wife resides at 41 Church Street, Dundee has been awarded the Military Medal for gallantry and devotion to duty. Private Rennie is 29 years of age and had been in France for about 5 months.
Prior to enlistment he was employed as a weaver in the city.
( The article actually has an accompanying photograph of him).
William
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Many thanks for both of your responses
My cousin has replied to my Email from today when I asked for further information
Although the Granddaughter she is helping had been told her Grandfather did not return from the war his daughter Thomasina was born circa 1921
She now feels that there is something very odd about the information D Rennie died as had been stated and also that her Mum did not know the real surname of her Father D Rennie
Do know that Doreen child of Dora and Helen is the Mum of lady (who is named Helen which I assume is in honour of Helen Ryan) my cousin is helping to try and establish the correct surname of her Grandfather
Also the 1931 Canadian Census has Helen Ryan (Rennie) as being born in Scotland not Newcastle - so yet another discrepancy
I appreciate all you have sourced for me and have passed it on to my cousin
Many many thanks
Edith A
Is the photo attached to the article available to view?
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Hope this works. The attachment is a snip from the newspaper in question.
William
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Many thanks to the many replies
Both my cousin Diane who sent me the initial enquiry and myself had came to the conclusion something did not ring true about D Rennie dying in WW1 especially as Thomasina was born circa 1921
Also feel it is possible that Dora who married in 1939 does link to same people I enquired about
Thank you so much to the person who contacted Scotland People to informs them that the Gender was wrongly entered for Dora Rennie Senior using their credits on this site on my behalf
So kind 👍🏻
Is it possible that Dora either married twice or married once officially and had a second family?
Cannot thank everyone enough - so grateful
Edith A
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Christine53, who was informant on Dora's death certificate and what was their address?
It seems odd that whilst Dora died at the same address he and Helen lived at in the 1920s, he does not appear there in the 1930/35/40 Valuation Rolls as a Tenant/Occupier. I wonder if he was living at the address with someone of another surname, and they were on the Rolls.
Also in need of further checking is that the newspaper item on Dora refers to the Seaforth Highlanders, yet the medal card refers to the Scottish Rifles. These were different regiments.
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Here are the details for 'other' Dora-
RENNIE DORA (mother's maiden name- MCINTOSH) F 1905 644 / 3 / 3204 Dennistoun
From census returns this is likely marriage of her parents-
RENNIE JAMES to MCINTOSH ELIZABETH ANN 1899 232 / 2 / 1 Boddam
RENNIE DORA 1911 census F age 5 644/4 19/ 5 Dennistoun Lanark
Also: Elizabeth 35, Elizabeth 10, James 8.
RENNIE DORA 1921 census F age 15 168/3 11/ 24 Rubislaw Aberdeen
Also: Elizabeth 20.
RENNIE DORA to LEIPER ALEXANDER 1939 168 / 2 / 871 Aberdeen Southern District
RENNIE DORA age 69 (mother- MCINTOSH) F 1975 300 / 342 Aberdeen
LEIPER DORA age 69 (mother- MCINTOSH) F 1975 300 / 342 Aberdeen
Aberdeen Evening Express, 18 Nov.1986: November 15, 1986, Alexander of 10 Whitehall Place, Aberdeen, dearly beloved husband of the late Dora Rennie, much loved father and grandfather. Service at Aberdeen Crematorium, Hazlehead (East Chapel), on Wednesday, November 19 ...
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From the free search on SP I suspect that this is Dora and Helen in the 1911 census in Dundee (as transcribed).
Rennie Nellie F 21
Rennie Dorw M 22.
Ref 282/4 41/40 St Andrew R D
Edith, it might be worth looking at the 1911 and 1921 censuses for Dora to see what it says regarding his place of birth.
William
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Edith, it might be worth looking at the 1911 and 1921 censuses for Dora to see what it says regarding his place of birth.
William
...and Helen/Ellen/Nellie's birthplace too.
Plus, for a few extra SP credits, the marriage record that aghadowey gave index details for eaflier in this thread, is also worth looking at and should name both sets of parents, which might assist in tying Helen's lineage down.
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Mmm...looks like someone has incorrectly, it would seem, named Dora as David at:
https://www.greatwardundee.com/entry/d-rennie/
There is a service number showing S/2993. A quick check shows there was a David Rennie with that service number, in the Seaforth Highlanders.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D482652I
Although, I now wonder if, somehow, the newspaper article mixed up the two D. Rennie chaps?
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Would like to thank everyone and give an update too
Diane my cousin sends her thanks also and she is going to pass on details everyone has sent via this Forum to Helen the Granddaughter of Dora Rennie
It is odd that he appeared to live in same house at time of his death as when he was married to Helen
Maybe the loss of three children contributed to Helen migrating with four of their children to Canada
Another 1st cousin of mine based in Perth Scotland has forwarded Army Records and Marriage certificate for Dora Rennie
Amazing what everyone has done using their own free time to help me
Diane thinks Helen will appreciate knowing everything you have uncovered even it it takes apart the death in WW1
Helen is an elderly single lady - late 80’s - with a Nephew who visits regularly whom Diane feels will take up research on his Aunt’s behalf
Thanks to you all
Edith
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Hi
Have Helen’s parents names courtesy of my cousin who lives in Perth Scotland
George Ryan and Mary Jane Sutherland
My cousin has Dora’s Father as Angelino Rennie so different to what Diane said and what someone on Forum sourced
Marriage data sourced - have a copy
She looked at 1911 and 1921 census
Nothing sourced
Helen the Granddaughter said Grandmother Helen Ryan born in Newcastle which is where I live hence Diane asking me best way to find a surname
Diane then said data in Canada has her born in Scotland
You are all stars for helping solve the riddle on behalf of Dora’s Granddaughter
Edith
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It might be worth it to purchase the birth records for Dora's children, in case his full given name was listed instead of just Dora (if Dora was an abbreviation or nickname), and also in case a middle name was listed.
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One of the eldest sons of Dora Rennie and Helen Ryan was named George McPherson Ryan Rennie.
Therefore this is likely the marriage, in Scotland, of Helen Ryan's parents-
RYAN GEORGE MCPHERSO[N] to SUTHERLAND MARY J 1878 140 / 6 Rafford
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I think she could be the Helen born in South Shields 1887 mmn Sutherland. and showing as born in Hebburn in the 1891 census - parents George and Mary J living in Wallsend. This family can be found in Elgin in the 1901 census.
There is a death for 84 year old Mary J Ryan in St Andrew Dundee in 1944 , other name Sutherland.
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I have edited my last post . The Ryan family are in Elgin in 1901
George 49 b Forres
Mary J 40 b Rafford
Hellen 13 b Newcastle
Elizabeth 10 b Newcastle
Andrew 8 b Newcastle
Jane 3 b Moray
John 7 b Alves
James 0 b Elgin
Murdina Granddaughter 0 b Elgin
In 1911 they are in Dundee in St Andrew R D Ref 282/ 4 4/ 20
George 60
Mary Jane 52
Andrew 18
John 16
Jane 13
James 10
Murdina is in Dundee but at a different reference.
In 1921 George 70 and Mary 61 are at 282/ 3 57/ 4 in St Andrew R D
Possible death for George in St Andrew in 1932 age 82.
William
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Am I correct in thinking that no one knows when Dora's family name was changed or who changed it (Dora, his father, his grandfather)?
What if Dora's parents stayed in Italy? If Dora's original surname was Travolta, for example, and his parents stayed in Italy, their surname would have stayed Travolta, even after Dora changed his surname to Rennie. In that case, on Dora's official documents, wouldn't his father's surname be listed as Travolta and not Rennie?
If so, father and son having the same surname on Dora's official documents suggests that his father also emigrated to Scotland or England. But has anyone found any evidence of this?
Is there another option? What if Rennie was an Anglicization of Dora's Italian surname? I've seen some records on Ancestry for people with the surname Reni living in the US, who were born in Italy. Is Reni an Italian surname? If so, might this be a possible clue?
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There is an online tree (always needs to be treated with caution) which says that Dora's parents were Agastino Rennie and Maria Bianchi.
Included is Andrew's marriage licence which says that his father was Dora who was born in Italy.
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Once again thank you for all the replies
My cousin Diane has passed on all that you have sourced re Rennie
I also now know that the lady Diane is helping feels her Mum Doreen and her Aunts/Uncles were aware that her Grandparents has separated at some point and made up the story of Dora dying during the War to explain her ‘widowhood’ to trll their own families
Unsure why this was necessary
She thinks it was Dora’s Father Antonio/Agostino/? who made the name change for some reason.
Cannot confirm this
Did a little research - Reino and Rano was an Italian surname from regions of Puglia and Benevetto mainly but again I cannot say this would be the correct surname prior to Rennie becoming family name if it was indeed changed
Bianchi was Maria’s name as official Wedding data for Dora has that entered
Great help from you all
Have a good day 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Edith
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There was a wartime Act of 1914, that required foreign nationals to register with the police, then a 1919 Act which extended the purpose. If Dora, with or without his parents, arrived in Dundee sometime after his birth (ie rather than having been born anywhere in Britain), as part of the large influx of Italian immigrants to Scotland in the late 1800s and early 1900s, It may be worthwhile asking via:
https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/service-area/corporate-services/democratic-and-legal-services/archives
if it is possible to have a search done of the following record set, which they apparently hold:
Dundee City Police registers of aliens, 1917-1949 (class TRC)
Also, this map may be helpful in narrowing down potential regions in Italy:
https://maps.nls.uk/projects/italians/
And of course, if the lady your friend is helping was willing, a DNA test may open up even more avenues of research, especially if it highlighted that she did indeed have Italian ancestry.
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Thanks Josephine
Much appreciated
Edith A
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Thanks Josephine
Much appreciated
Edith A
You're welcome, Edith. Good luck! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you all. A lot of helpful Rootschatters have given you excellent information and advice.
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Hi Josephine, William and everyone else who helped me
Know Helen the Granddaughter is very appreciative of everything I have received from Rootschat participants since I posted yesterday
Every snippet has been passed on and even though she now knows her Grandfather was alive until 1960 and she was unaware of this fact she is so pleased to have some clarity on her Dundee based Ancestors
Thanks to all
Edith
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This was mentioned earlier-
Am I correct in thinking that no one knows when Dora's family name was changed or who changed it (Dora, his father, his grandfather)?
What if Dora's parents stayed in Italy? If Dora's original surname was Travolta, for example, and his parents stayed in Italy, their surname would have stayed Travolta, even after Dora changed his surname to Rennie. In that case, on Dora's official documents, wouldn't his father's surname be listed as Travolta and not Rennie?
If so, father and son having the same surname on Dora's official documents suggests that his father also emigrated to Scotland or England. But has anyone found any evidence of this?
Is there another option? What if Rennie was an Anglicization of Dora's Italian surname? I've seen some records on Ancestry for people with the surname Reni living in the US, who were born in Italy. Is Reni an Italian surname? If so, might this be a possible clue?
I think it's likely, whatever the circumstances, that Dora would have given the father's surname as Rennie rather than whatever the original Italian name was. Only place he might have likely given the 'real' name is in a naturalisation record (if he did eventually become a U.K. citizen.
I wonder if 'Dora' was a form of Theodore which is Teodoro?
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Hi and sorry if I have ignored a post
Not intentional
I do not know if Antonio and Maria came to Scotland with their son
Do know Dora was born in Genoa Italy now though as cousin in Perth Scotland sourced 1921 census for the family
Could ask if Dora’s parents came with their children to Dundee or other areas of UK
Some of the links attached to posts are being explored
Thanks and apologies for not commenting on all responses
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Thank you to everyone for taking their own time to research and then pass on all you sourced to me regarding my Post for Dora Rennie and Helen Ryan
Helen Granddaughter of Dora and Helen has emailed me personally and wanted to pass on her many thanks for the information you have been able to source enabling her to gain a better grasp of her Scottish links and also find out exactly where Dora was born
Helen is now exploring how to find the Italian variant of surname Rennie knowing that her Grandfather was born in Genoa
Many thanks again
Edith
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Have you seen the webiste for the State Archives of Genoa?
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/archivio/state-archives-of-genoa-2/?lang=en
It looks like they have digitized some registers:
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/search-registry/?archivio=173&descrizione=Archivio%20di%20Stato%20di%20Genova&lang=en
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Hello
have seen that website and checked it out as well
Lots of data in huge volumes
Also sent it to cousin and she has forwarded it to Helen
Many thanks
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There are several ways the family's surname could have changed from the original Italian one which probably won't make it any easier to trace.
1) by sound- changed to something that sounded like, or a bit like, the original
2) by spelling- changed to something that looked a bit like the original
3) from something in the new country, a place or another surname. For example, my cousin's mother was a Kelly whose family came from Ireland and settled in Bronx, New York City. Lots of other Irish Kellys there but apparently there was one Chinese Kelly family there also. When they arrived from China they wanted 'an American' name and thought since there were so many Kellys it must be an American name.
4) surname chosen for them by a UK official- probably even more likely if they were illiterate or semi-illiterate
However, it may be possible to find the name based on the following-
She thinks it was Dora’s Father Antonio/Agostino/? who made the name change for some reason.
From this it sounds as though Dora's parents could have moved to the U.K. (hopefully Scotland) so would be worth searching for them in census records to start with. Father's Christian name possibly Agostino/August/Angelino/Angelo and mother Maria. It may be that they joined relatives already in Scotland or that others from their home in Italy followed.
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Thanks
And I am aware of many variants
Have Kennedy as Kennady, Kenady, Kennity and other spellings
Appleby as Applebee and Appelby
Senegoga as Singoga and Senecoca
Understand there are many variants and the further back regardedless of Region many people spelled words as they sounded
Thanks again
Will post any updates if Helen is successful in tracing correct surname
Edith A