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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: mulberry-rose on Wednesday 04 September 24 17:24 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I need some help finding the parents and a death record for John Carlyon. He married Barbara Hancox at Chester-le-street in 1920. In the 1921 census they are living at 8 Alexandra Street, Pelton. Barbara died in 1928, buried at Pelton.
The 1921 census puts his age as 19yrs 11mths, born at Manchester, Lancashire. His occupation a pony putter at Craghead.
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There is a 9 year old John Carlyon born in Lancashire living in Craghead with his parents Henry and Annie in 1911.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWHT-KDK
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You really need the marriage certificate to confirm his fathers name :)
Maybe
CARLIN, JOHN mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1902 March Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 148
Have you located him in 1939
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There is a 9 year old John Carlyon born in Lancashire living in Craghead with his parents Henry and Annie in 1911.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWHT-KDK
This looks intriguing, thank you! The younger sister sister Olive seems to have been born in Manchester. Younger sibs have MMN Walsh.
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You really need the marriage certificate to confirm his fathers name :)
Maybe
CARLIN, JOHN mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1902 March Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 148
Have you located him in 1939
Unfortunately I’m not able to get the marriage cert right now. I do wish it was simpler to get them than ordering, etc.
No sign of him in 1939. Although his eldest daughter Annie (married Hall) is still living in Chester le street by then.
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Ancestry strikes again - transcribed as Turgon in 1911🙄🙄
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John's mother not Annie as parents have only been married 6 years in 1911.
SS
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1911 - daughter Lottie's birth ref shows mmn Troon. Henry Carlyon married Mary Annie Troon 1881 Falmouth
Harriet's birth reg shows mmn Walsh as does Olive
John Troon Carlyon birth 1903 on freebmd - mmn Troon
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There is a tree for Booth/Carlyon, but nothing is linked.....
There is this marriage
Marriages Mar Q 1900
Booth Roland Ashton 8d 642
Walsh Annie Ashton 8d 642
This possible baptism, that would possibly match 19 yrs 11 mths in June 1921
Name Joannes Booth
Gender Male
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 1 Jul 1901
Baptism Date 15 Jul 1901
Baptism Church Domo Pauperum
Baptism Place Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire, England
Diocese Salford
Father Rowlandi Booth
Mother Annae Booth
Henry with first wife & children in 1901 also called Annie nee Troon
Deaths Mar 1903
Carlyon Annie age 42 Chester le S. 10a 304
Marriages Dec Q 1910
Booth Annie Lanchester 10a 539
Carlyon Henry Lanchester 10a 539
1911 found by Jen B for family.
I think he took his stepfather name
Possible death
Name John Carlyon
Death Age 63
Birth Date abt 1900
Registration Date 1963
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Don Valley
Inferred County Yorkshire West Riding
Volume 2b Page 470
Cas
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John's mother not Annie as parents have only been married 6 years in 1911.
SS
I think Henry was previously married to Mary Annie Troon who went by “Annie”, she died 1903. He remarried to the “new” Annie but no signs of a marriage…
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Henry Carlyon married Mary Ellen Walsh in 1907 Lanchester
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So John was born John Troon Carlyon & I suspect his mother Mary Annie died in childbirth
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Henry Carlyon and family (wife Annie) are in South Moor in the 1901 census (transcribed correctly at An*) Their youngest child is Lottie, 1, born South Moor as are older children placing the family in South Moor in the preceding few years.
15 September 1899: North Star (Darlington) has an item about a Henry Carlyon being found guilty of breaking safety rules in the Hedley Pit, South Moor Colliery.
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The birth of John Troon Carlyon was in Durham in 1903 not Lancashire & all of the earlier info
pre-supposes his father was Henry.
Until you buy the marriage cert it would be pointless going further as it could be an entirely different John Carlyon
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Many ancestry trees I had a look at have had John Troon Carlyon as dying in 1903 in Durham although I’ve found no sources for this/death records.
I do think perhaps the 1911 census may be my John Carlyon, but rather as a stepson not Henry’s son. Annie Walsh was born 1881 Oldham according to 1911 census.
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He was still alive in 1911 & on the census with Henry & stepmother.
4 children born to the Carlyon/Hancox marriage but one may have died as there are 2 with the same christian name
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Many ancestry trees I had a look at have had John Troon Carlyon as dying in 1903 in Durham although I’ve found no sources for this/death records.
I do think perhaps the 1911 census may be my John Carlyon, but rather as a stepson not Henry’s son. Annie Walsh was born 1881 Oldham according to 1911 census.
Have you read reply 8..they married in 1910. The 1907 marriage is likely Henry's son.
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IF - the John Carlyon who married Barbara Hancox in 1920 was John Troon Carlyon then he was only 17 at that time.
As I said in my earlier reply - further info on this assumption could cause more confusion - as well as wasting time
When you are able to purchase the marriage cert & confirm his fathers name - please post details here
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For what it's worth there is a Geneanet tree
https://tinyurl.com/4fwur6du (https://tinyurl.com/4fwur6du)
which has John Carlyon born 1901 Lancashire, died Doncaster 1963 (parents Henry Carlyon, Annie Walsh). The owner has a private Ancestry tree.
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John Carlyon (husband of Barbara) in the 1921 census states his age as 19y 11mo, thus he was born July 1901.
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Info only, 4 Carlyon/Hancox births
Births Sep 1922
Carlyon John Hancox Chester-le-S. 10a 1108 (died mq 1925)
Births Sep 1924
Carlyon Josephine Hancox Chester-le-S 10a 1142 (died sq 1925)
Births Jun 1926
Carlyon Hannah Hancox Chester-le-S. 10a 1067 Married James E Thompson 1943,
died Feb 2001 dob 5.4.1926, as per
1939 register
Births Sep 1928
Carlyon John H Hancox Chester-le-S. 10a 892 (died 2005, dob 24.5.1928)
SS
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Info only, Hannah Carlyon in 1939 is with her aunt, Alice March nee' Hancox. Henry March married Alice 1924 Chester le Street.
SS
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Info only, Hannah Carlyon in 1939 is with her aunt, Alice March nee' Hancox. Henry March married Alice 1924 Chester le Street.
SS
Thank you for all this info, especially the 1939 register :)
John & Barbara also had another daughter, Annie b 1920.
HANCOX Annie Carlyon, 1920 Sep Qtr Chester-le-St, 10a, 1488
Given Barbara died 6 Jun 1928 (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122801905/barbara-carlyon) I suspect it must’ve been childbirth related with her having the youngest only two weeks earlier.
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With regard to Annie Carlyon Hancox I believe she married Albert Hall in 1939, appears in war register with him with dob 19.1.1920. She remarries Joseph Emmerson 1974.
Annie Emmerson
19 Jan 1920
Feb 2005
Durham Central
Durham
SS
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Deleted ::)
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3 Hall/Carlyon births between 1940-1950. Eldest daughter named after her grandmother Barbara.
SS
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This looks likely to be Annie Booth in 1901. Sister Mary Ellen Walsh married in 1907 to son of Henry Carlyon. Also named Henry.
1901 - Civil parish Stalybridge, Lancs
Piece 3798, Folio 108, Page number 27
Registration district Ashton under Lyne
Samuel Concannon 60 Head
Annie Concannon 20 Daughter
Peter Walsh 49 Lodger
Annie Booth 20 Lodger Married b Royton (down as daughter to Peter in 1891)
Mary E Walsh 18 Lodger
John Walsh 13 Lodger
Sylvester Walsh 1 Lodger (possible grandson, there was also a son born 1878 called same)
John Booth born July 1901, looks like he never knew his father. It cannot be Henry Carlyon senior as still with wife in 1901 and not living Ashton were John states born in 1911. Also the age he gives in 1921.
Likely baptism for Annie.. Royton is 2 miles from Oldham
Name Anna Walsh
Gender Female
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 26 Aug 1880
Baptism Date 17 Oct 1880
Baptism Church Santa Maria
Baptism Place Oldham, Lancashire, England
Diocese Salford
Father Petri Walsh
Mother Margarita Walsh (nee Forrest)
*Parents married 1877.
1881 Ann with Irish paternal grandparents in Oldham also mother & older brother Silvester
Looks like the husband Roland/Rowland possibly absconded. Some hints to the states a possibility. Not located a death but only looked briefly.
Cas
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1939 register there is a Annie Carlyon in Blean Kent with a birthdate transcribed as 26 Aug 1882, but looks like 1880 to me. Living on private means.
Which could be the Annae Walsh from above (catholic) baptism which has same birthdate.
Deaths Mar Q 1942
Carlyon Annie age 61 Canterbury 2a 2495
Likely birth for John
BOOTH, JOHN mmn WALSH
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in ASHTON UNDER LYNE Volume 08D Page 397
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Cas(stallc), I think your last post was a super piece of research.
SS
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Cas(stallc), I think your last post was a super piece of research.
SS
Thank you kindly SS, hopefully it makes sense to OP
Cas
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Has a birth date been ascertained for John that could be set against the possible birth certificate.
SS
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See reply #8 for his catholic baptism.
Gives birthdate as 1 July 1901
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Ok, just taking dogs out for walks, I will get gro certificate when I return
SS
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Cas, think your right.
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Very kind of you SS to obtain cert on behalf of OP.
Glad it is likely the correct one - ties in 1900 marriage, catholic baptism and 1901 census stating from Stalybridge.
Workhouse records could be interesting (likely to just give birth) or finding him in 1939 register.
Cas
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Just for fun ;D, the belowMarriages Sep 1928
Booth John Douthwaite Stockport 8a 349
DOUTHWAITE Enid L Booth Stockport 8a 349
Appear together in 1939 and his dob 1.7.1901.
SS
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Interesting, guess only the marriage cert would help prove if he is John Booth/Carlyon
Stockport is 7 miles from Stalybridge (genuki) Olive Carlyon registered Ashton in 1905 so family still around the area.
Wife died June 1928. So if it is him he remarried fast.
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John Booth
1 Jul 1901
Oct 1982
Oct-Nov-Dec
Manchester
Greater Manchester
Enid Lucy Booth
16 Jan 1902
Apr 1998
Stockport
Greater Manchester
SS
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19 July 1901: Manchester Evening News
[marriage 1900 Q1 Ashton-under-Lyne
Roland Booth
Annie Walsh]
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19 July 1901: Manchester Evening News
[marriage 1900 Q1 Ashton-under-Lyne
Roland Booth
Annie Walsh]
Great piece of info Alan! Re the newspaper clipping. So they married March 1900
Edit - 1901 census taken 31 March and with her father, so this would have been just after John was born.
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Forget John Booth, well documented on a tree.
SS
BOOTH, JOHN HIGGINBOTTOM
GRO Reference: 1901 S Quarter in ASHTON UNDER LYNE Volume 08D Page 447
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Wonder if this is him? First son on grave born England
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/86901308/roland_booth
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Time out for afternoon tea and cake whilst sun shines
SS
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Cas (stallc) @reply #41
Yes, I've been circling around that connection too. This is the tenuous story I have:
Rowland Booth birth registered 1879 Q3 Stockport
1881 census
Ashton-under-Lyne
John Booth, 35, carpenter, Huddersfield
Sarah, 36, Glossop
William, 14, Glossop
Mary, 9, Ashton
Emily J, 5, Hadfield
Rowland, 1, Hyde [close to Ashton]
1891 census
Glossop
John Booth, widr, 46
Emily J, 16, Hadfield
Rowland, 12, Ashton
George, 6, Ashton
John, 5, Ashton
Then Anc* suggests that both Rowland and George have subsequent records in USA, I don't have access to those records but Rowland has a 1910 US census record.
Note the Glossop connections; Glossop is 8 miles from Ashton, Stalybridge a little closer to Glossop.
There is a Leonard Booth born 1905 Q3 Glossop
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Interesting, have viewed the same UK records. I don't have access to the US hints either. He seems a very good candidate.
Without family DNA matches, it would be difficult to confirm if connected, or just a red herring.
Cas
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Went looking to see what there was for George after your mention of him.
Bingo, looks like same family. Small orbit
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/103957032/george-booth
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I do.
Pawtucket Ward 6, Providence, Rhode Island, United States
Roland Booth Self Married Male 30 1880 Born England.
Elesebeth Booth Wife Married Female 34 1876 born England
Lenard Booth Son Single Male 7 1903 (born England)
Helda Booth Daughter Single Female 2 1908 born Rhode Island
Edith M Booth Daughter Single Female 0 1910 born Rhode Island
SS
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Great SS, hope you enjoyed your sunny tea break. It's tipping down in South Wales ::)
Think he may have married there also, quite a few children born. Any dates of leaving England?
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1920 & 1930
Rowland Booth Self Married Male 40 1880 England
Eliza Booth Wife Married Female 42 1878 England
Lawrence Booth Son Single Male 16 1904 England (Looks as though should be Leonard)
Elder Booth Daughter Single Female 12 1908 Rhode Island
Alice Booth Daughter Single Female 8 1912 Rhode Island
John Booth Son Single Male 7 1913 Rhode Island
Rowland Booth Son Single Male 4 1916 Rhode Island
Irine Booth Daughter Single Female 2 1918 Rhode Island
.........................................................
Roland Booth Head Widowed Male 49 1881 England
Irene Booth Daughter Single Female 12 1918 Rhode Island
Roland Booth Son Single Male 14 1916 Rhode Island
John Booth Son Single Male 17 1913 Rhode Island
Alice Booth Daughter Single Female 18 1912 Rhode Island
Leonard Booth Son Single Male 27 1903 England
SS
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Deleted
SS
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I think there is another Rowland Booth in Glossop, son of James and Martha.
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I think there is another Rowland Booth in Glossop, son of James and Martha.
Agree b c 1877 in 1939 with daughter Evelyn mmn Barton and death around 1951
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Sorry I’ve just seen all of these new messages now!
Thank you all so much for the help, this is all incredible. softly softly thank you for purchasing the GRO record of birth, it’s very appreciated :)
I’m hoping to order the marriage certificate for John this weekend.
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I think he believed his father was Henry Carlyon. So that is what is likely on marriage as father.
Annie and Roland seemed estranged before he was born, maybe he never knew Henry was not his father. (See Stalybridge newsclip from AlanBoyd)
DNA testing can and does throw up some untruths of the paper trail research. I can vouch for it, concerning family secrets. It also can confirm.
There is lots more on familysearch regarding Roland and additional family. States his arrival in US was 1904 and he was single. The mother of Leonard born 1903 was Elizabeth Ashton born Dunkinfield England. Not sure if they travelled together. (Gives an image for FindMyPast)
Not checked further children to see if same mother or if they married.
Cas
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Returning here just to muddy the waters a little more ::)
I’ve not yet ordered John & Barbara’s marriage cert but will be doing it in the next week or so.
However, the Lanc OPC as well as having John’s baptism (and his half brother Sylvester) has this baptism;
Baptism: 3 Nov 1900 St Mary Poor House, Ashton under Lyne, Lancashire
Josephus Walsh - filius Annae Walsh
Born: 25 Oct 1900
Godparent: Maria Halpin
Baptised By: Roberto Molloy
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1916, Page 30, Entry 137
Source: Original Register
All of them share the same godmother so I’m wonder if this Joseph is another brother? I can’t find a birth / death record for him, though.
A little more detailed article mentions Annie was living with a man named Jas Heyes at Salford.
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This seems to be the order of things?
25 October 1899 - Sylvester Walsh born at Union Workhouse, Ashton Under Lyne
March 1900 - Roland Booth & Annie Walsh marry
April 1900 - Annie goes to live with Jas Heyes at Salford
November 1900 - (possible) son Joseph Walsh baptised Union Workhouse, Ashton Under Lyne
January 1901 - Roland & Annie living at 1 Nield Street, Stalybridge
March 1901 - Annie at Queen Street, Stalybridge w/ her father, son and siblings
26 April 1901 - Annie admitted to the workhouse
1 July 1901 - John Carlyon born at Union Workhouse, Ashton Under Lyne
Edit:
Looks like another child to add to that
Catherine Walsh b 6 May 1903 13 Cross Street Stalybridge, daughter of Annie Walsh (operative cotton ring spinner)
And then
Booth, 32 Spring St
6 May 1903, baptised 10 January 19?4 Catherina Booth dau of Rolandi & Annie Booth (Walsh)
Godparents: Francis O’Brien & Joseph Conroy
CARLYON, CATHERINE 4
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in LANCHESTER Volume 10A Page 207
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Marriage cert delivered in the post today, confirms that Henry is John’s stepfather ;D
16 Oct 1920 at the Registry Office
John Carlyon (19), single, coal miner of 9 Ousterly Terrace, son of Henry Carlyon, coal miner
Barbara Hancox (19), single, Coronation St, dau of John Hancox, coal miner