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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: BarbW on Tuesday 20 August 24 18:17 BST (UK)
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This is my grandfather Thomas John Williams born in Bethesda, Wales in 1898. He was killed in a road accident in 1943 whilst in the RAF. I have all available records for WW2 but nothing for WW1.
I did submit the same photo years ago but it was a very poor copy of a copy and nobody was able to help due to the quality. A relative in Wales sent me this recently. It's an original postcard with a studio name in Llandudno. Can anybody please assist.
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I should add I am only assuming the uniform is WW1 because of the legwear, there is nobody left to ask if he even was a serviceman.
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The cap badge could be the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, some of their battalions were associated with Llandudno in WW1.
https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/ww1-royal-welsh-fusiliers-regiment-rwf-cap-badge---first-pattern-27.html
Tony
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Do you have a WW1 address for him.
I have at least two Thomas John Williams in RWF for the area and quite a few straight Thomas Williams.
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In the 1911 census he was living with his family at 1 Bell Cottages, Penmaenmawr then nothing until he marries my grandmother in Liverpool in 1921.
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He was born on 22 February 1898 to Robert John Williams and Ellen Owens GRO Birth Index March Quarter 1898 Bangor Vol 11b page 446 Mother's Maiden Name = Owens
He was probably Conscripted after his 18th Birthday in February 1916 and he would not have had a Choice which Regt he wanted to Enlist to into
On the assumption he Enlisted under Thomas John rather than just Thomas there are a few under,Thomas John
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In the 1911 census he was living with his family at 1 Bell Cottages, Penmaenmawr then nothing until he marries my grandmother in Liverpool in 1921.
Seen the 1911 census now and his CWGC entry. Both stating his father to be Robert Williams and mother to be Ellen Williams.
Curiously the North Wales Chronicle dated 15 11 1918 has, under Penmaenmawr
" The death also took place on Monday of Mrs Ellen Willams. Castle Hall, widow of the late Mr Thomas Williams, 1, Bell Cottages."
Absent Voters for Penmaenmawr has a Thomas John Williams, Castle Hall as Pte 32107 in 19th Bn, Welsh Regiment.
Does this Castle Hall or the deaths of his parents feature in your research?
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Thomas John being under 21 would not have been allowed to Vote then
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Thomas John being under 21 would not have been allowed to Vote then
Key paragraphs
The Representation of the People Act, 1918, makes special provision for the registration of members of the Military Forces. Every officer and man who is a British subject and will have attained the age of 19 years of age on 15 April 1918 is entitled to be registered as a Parliamentary elector for any constituency in which he would have been residing but for his service in the Army. A statement made by him in the “prescribed” form and verified in the “prescribed” manner that he would have had the necessary qualification for being registered but for his service, is to be treated as sufficient proof of qualification if there is no evidence to the contrary. …
From
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-registration-of-military-voters/
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Wow Brilliant
Thanks for that Knowledge
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Looks like the newspaper article I quoted has a typo i.e.. Thomas instead of Robert because the North Wales Weekly News of 10 1 1913 reports the death of Robert Williams, 1 Bell Cottages.
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Absent Voters for Penmaenmawr has a Thomas John Williams, Castle Hall as Pte 32107 in 19th Bn, Welsh Regiment.
The cap badge is definitely not Welsh Regiment.
321017 was awarded the 1914-15 Star so the age doesn't fit either.
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He was born on 22 February 1898 to Robert John Williams and Ellen Owens GRO Birth Index March Quarter 1898 Bangor Vol 11b page 446 Mother's Maiden Name = Owens
He was probably Conscripted after his 18th Birthday in February 1916 and he would not have had a Choice which Regt he wanted to Enlist to into
On the assumption he Enlisted under Thomas John rather than just Thomas there are a few under,Thomas John
I have reviewed them to eliminate those that in pre 1916 and found one in the RE that seems a good one if someone thinks his Cao Badge could fit that and I am trying to get his address in this case
Yes that is him
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Looks like the newspaper article I quoted has a typo i.e.. Thomas instead of Robert because the North Wales Weekly News of 10 1 1913 reports the death of Robert Williams, 1 Bell Cottages.
Thank you so much for this.
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The North Wales Weekly News Thu, 22 Jul 1915 ·Page 6 has a list of Penmaenmawr men serving. It includes Thomas J Williams, Castle Hall, 17th RWF.
17th RWF are linked to Llandudno thus:
17th (Service) Battalion (2nd North Wales)
Formed at Llandudno on 2 February 1915 and came under orders of 128th Brigade, 43rd Division.
Record same as 15th Bn but not disbanded in 1918.
Given the Absent Voters shows him as a Welsh Regiment man it appears he has either transferred to the Welsh Regiment at some point before December 1915 [which is when he went to France]
OR
He was discharged from RWF having been found to be under age and has then enlisted in the Welsh Regiment making himself older to do so.
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The North Wales Weekly News Thu, 15 Nov 1923 ·Page 10
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Thank you so much. My dad and his twin brother were born in Grey Rock Street, Liverpool in 1925 and Ethel was my grandmother.
According to Google Castle Rock is known locally as Castell Mawr.
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The North Wales Weekly News Thu, 22 Jul 1915 ·Page 6 has a list of Penmaenmawr men serving. It includes Thomas J Williams, Castle Hall, 17th RWF.
17th RWF are linked to Llandudno thus:
17th (Service) Battalion (2nd North Wales)
Formed at Llandudno on 2 February 1915 and came under orders of 128th Brigade, 43rd Division.
Record same as 15th Bn but not disbanded in 1918.
Given the Absent Voters shows him as a Welsh Regiment man it appears he has either transferred to the Welsh Regiment at some point before December 1915 [which is when he went to France]
OR
He was discharged from RWF having been found to be under age and has then enlisted in the Welsh Regiment making himself older to do so.
Great Theory
32107 obviously Enlisted Spring 1915 into the 19th Welch Reg presumed over age
Went Overseas December 1915 with them
Discharged January 1919 Class Z as the War hadn't ended yet.
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Thomas's brother Robert Hugh Williams is with his sister Jane Barclay and several Owen relatives at Castle Hall in the 1921 census:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F27903%2F0019%2F03&expand=true&tab=this
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I wonder if Castle Hall was a name given to an area as Penmaenmawr increased in size? Thank you for the census return, I do currently have a FindMyPast subscription so have downloaded it.
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The North Wales Weekly News Thu, 15 Nov 1923 ·Page 10
I've just bought the death certificate and my grandfather was present at his mother's death on 11 Nov 1918. I just checked and this was the same date WW1 ended!
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Incorrect WW1 ended 28 June 1919
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Incorrect WW1 ended 28 June 1919
Thank you Alexa for giving me wrong information!
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I wonder if Castle Hall was a name given to an area as Penmaenmawr increased in size? Thank you for the census return, I do currently have a FindMyPast subscription so have downloaded it.
I have rechecked the Absent voters and it seems to be a house name on Conway Road, Penmaenmawr.
List goes like this
Castle Hall
Norwood
Cartref
Burleigh House
Bryn Gwynedd
Minydon
Bryn Dinarth
Bryngwynedd Cottage
Bryn Hafod
Here are Norwood and Cartref next to each other on Conwy Road on Google Street
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2708113,-3.919492,3a,66.8y,250.05h,89.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDLsEEVDKXMmkOv61k6Xo7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
I can't readily see Castle Hall but there seems to be some buildings demolished to the left of Norwood. See this side by side Old Map/Satellite [the cursor movements match on each side]
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.3&lat=53.27070&lon=-3.92064&layers=6&right=BingHyb
I have made a screenshot and circled Norwood/Cartref
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I wonder if Castle Hall was a name given to an area as Penmaenmawr increased in size? Thank you for the census return, I do currently have a FindMyPast subscription so have downloaded it.
I have rechecked the Absent voters and it seems to be a house name on Conway Road, Penmaenmawr.
List goes like this
Castle Hall
Norwood
Cartref
Burleigh House
Bryn Gwynedd
Minydon
Bryn Dinarth
Bryngwynedd Cottage
Bryn Hafod
Here are Norwood and Cartref next to each other on Conwy Road on Google Street
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2708113,-3.919492,3a,66.8y,250.05h,89.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDLsEEVDKXMmkOv61k6Xo7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
I can't readily see Castle Hall but there seems to be some buildings demolished to the left of Norwood. See this side by side Old Map/Satellite [the cursor movements match on each side]
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.3&lat=53.27070&lon=-3.92064&layers=6&right=BingHyb
I have made a screenshot and circled Norwood/Cartref
That is very interesting. I wonder how a Widow was able to afford to live there. That is the address on her death certificate I purchased earlier today. I hadn't realised it was an actual house name.
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I just realised this is the address Castle Hall kindly given by Shaun J from the 1921 census of a few siblings of my grandfather. Maybe it was a more humble dwelling than those other houses in your photo.
EDIT. I just checked again and there were 7 people living in 4 rooms.
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View the next 6 to 8 images on the Census and you'll see other 'families' for the same address.
The building split into what we would call a House of Multiple Occupancy nowadays?
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View the next 6 to 8 images on the Census and you'll see other 'families' for the same address.
The building split into what we would call a House of Multiple Occupancy nowadays?
Yes that's exactly what I did!
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If this was Thomas John with the 19th Welch Regt
He was Discharged 27 January 1919 as Class Z because WW1 hadn't ended yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf4VHCfF/30850-A001693-02614.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Incorrect WW1 ended 28 June 1919
I know I'm being pedantic, and I understand why you say that 28 June 1919 marked the end of the war, but actually Britain remained in a state of war with Germany until 10 January 1920. See this official declaration by the King in the London Gazette: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31773/page/1671
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Thanks Andy - Agŕeed
I was aware of that - also it wasn't announced as Ended in Parliament till sometime in 1920 I was told.
My Comment was about the World War date ending with a Peace Treaty 5 years to the date the World War started.
But as Col A. D Wintle said
"There was only One War against the Bosch between 1914 and 1945
with a lull in the Fighting between 1918 and 1939 while they Regrouped "
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If this was Thomas John with the 19th Welch Regt
He was Discharged 27 January 1919 as Class Z because WW1 hadn't ended yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf4VHCfF/30850-A001693-02614.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
But would he have been allowed or even able to be present at the death of his mother in November 1918?
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"But would he have been allowed or even able to be present at the death of his mother in November 1918?"
He would be able to travel from France to home on leave (compassionate or normal).
My great uncle was at home on leave until a week before he went back to France and was Killed in Action during October 1918.
Tony
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"But would he have been allowed or even able to be present at the death of his mother in November 1918?"
He would be able to travel from France to home on leave (compassionate or normal).
My great uncle was at home on leave until a week before he went back to France and was Killed in Action during October 1918.
Tony
I had no idea that was even possible!
I've always thought of WW1 as trenches, mud and unspeakable horrors.
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"But would he have been allowed or even able to be present at the death of his mother in November 1918?"
He would be able to travel from France to home on leave (compassionate or normal).
My great uncle was at home on leave until a week before he went back to France and was Killed in Action during October 1918.
Tony
I had no idea that was even possible!
I've always thought of WW1 as trenches, mud and unspeakable horrors.
Yes the Trenches were like that
But the Soldiers didn't Live in them for Years- they we Rotated after a few days in them
They were allowed Leave
My Granddad was in Belgium in April 1915 but Registered his Sons Birth in Liverpool in May 1915
Thomas would have had to been told of his Mother's Death presumably unexpected
Then apply for leave
Get a Train in France to the Coast
Then Ferry
Then Trains to Bangor
All before the Funeral Date
And get back to his Unit after without getting a Charge
Some achievement for a 20 year old on his own.
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This whole thread has been so interesting and such a good WW1 history lesson for me.
Also thanks to super sleuths on here I've found the death certificates of both of his parents. I managed to get the £3 DC yesterday for his mother who died of "Sarcoma of the left shoulder and secondary growth in chest" the £3 version wasn't available for his father so I'm waiting for the other version to arrive.
I suppose Thomas had become the "head of the family" with his dad dying young.