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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Glynazard on Friday 16 August 24 09:30 BST (UK)
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Hi all!
I've been researching my family tree and my maternal Grandmother, Sarah Iris Thomas, was born in Newcastle Emlyn.
She moved to Cardiff but I'm not exactly sure when. But, all of her siblings, parents and scores of generations before that were born and lived in Newcastle Emlyn.
I've hit a bit of a blocker so I'm wondering if any more research has been done/if mine is even correct. Additionally, I'm also wondering if I have any extended family in the area too!
There are a number of Maiden names too - my Great-Grandmother was a Bateman and we also have Davies, Jones and Williams (bit of a needle in a haystack in Wales).
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Welcome to RootsChat!
This looks like the birth registration of your grandmother:
THOMAS, SARAH IRIS
GRO Reference: 1931 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN Volume 11B Page 23
Mother's maiden name is given as Bateman, as you have stated.
Is there specific information you are seeking? You say you've hit a bit of a blocker, but you have given a variety of surnames in your tree that suggest you have tracked further back than Sarah so is there an ancestor futher back that is your brick wall? Just asking so we know exactly what you want assistance with and don't answer your query with information you already know.
Queenie :)
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Thanks, Queenie!
I thought I'd put some attachments in but alas, I did not!
So I know my Grandmother's parents were William Thomas and Ivy Bateman.
Also know that William's parents were Thomas Thomas and Sarah Davies (Thomas' second wife).
I believe Thomas' Father was a David Thomas.
I can't seem to get any further than Sarah Davies on the other side.
I'm learning that Welsh ancestry in particular can be a little tricky!
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Looking at the Bateman side, this seems to be the parents of Sarah Iris b 1931.
Marriages Jun Q 1929
Bateman Ivy M - Thomas Cardiff 11a 612
Thomas William - Bateman Cardiff 11a 612
Couple can be found in 1939 in Cardiff area with 2 redacted entries (likely children)
1911 - Ivy can be found with parents William Harry Bateman & wife Martha. Monmouthshire
There is a baptism for Ivy at same address as 1911 with these parents.
There is a possible marriage in 1879
Marriages Dec Q1879 - same page
BATEMAN William Harry Cardigan 11b 15
Lewis Martha Cardigan 11b 15
The couple seem to have no children with them throughout census, but Ivy is born in their 50s. I am wondering if she is possibly adopted?
Her birth reg has no mother's maiden name, so likely illegitimate. Would possibly obtain cert to see if info matches. Available as a digital download £3.00 from GRO.
BATEMAN, IVY MARY -
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in BEDWELLTY Volume 11A Page 137
Welcome to Rootschat
Cas
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Looking at the Bateman side, this seems to be the parents of Sarah Iris b 1931.
Marriages Jun Q 1929
Bateman Ivy M - Thomas Cardiff 11a 612
Thomas William - Bateman Cardiff 11a 612
Couple can be found in 1939 in Cardiff area with 2 redacted entries (likely children)
1911 - Ivy can be found with parents William Harry Bateman & wife Martha. Monmouthshire
There is a baptism for Ivy at same address as 1911 with these parents.
There is a possible marriage in 1879
Marriages Dec Q1879 - same page
BATEMAN William Harry Cardigan 11b 15
Lewis Martha Cardigan 11b 15
The couple seem to have no children with them throughout census, but Ivy is born in their 50s. I am wondering if she is possibly adopted?
Her birth reg has no mother's maiden name, so likely illegitimate. Would possibly obtain cert to see if info matches. Available as a digital download £3.00 from GRO.
BATEMAN, IVY MARY -
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in BEDWELLTY Volume 11A Page 137
Welcome to Rootschat
Cas
Oh, that's interesting and certainly makes sense. I'll see what I can find!
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Looking at the Bateman side, this seems to be the parents of Sarah Iris b 1931.
Marriages Jun Q 1929
Bateman Ivy M - Thomas Cardiff 11a 612
Thomas William - Bateman Cardiff 11a 612
Couple can be found in 1939 in Cardiff area with 2 redacted entries (likely children)
1911 - Ivy can be found with parents William Harry Bateman & wife Martha. Monmouthshire
There is a baptism for Ivy at same address as 1911 with these parents.
There is a possible marriage in 1879
Marriages Dec Q1879 - same page
BATEMAN William Harry Cardigan 11b 15
Lewis Martha Cardigan 11b 15
The couple seem to have no children with them throughout census, but Ivy is born in their 50s. I am wondering if she is possibly adopted?
Her birth reg has no mother's maiden name, so likely illegitimate. Would possibly obtain cert to see if info matches. Available as a digital download £3.00 from GRO.
BATEMAN, IVY MARY -
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in BEDWELLTY Volume 11A Page 137
Welcome to Rootschat
Cas
Spoke to my Uncle and he believes that Ivy was raised by William and Martha before going back to her birth mother when she was age 10.
William and Martha were her Great Uncle and Aunt.
Her birth mother may have been called Alice Foan/Alice Hollis and she owned a dress shop.
Looking at the dates, it suggests that Alice would have been 18 when she had Ivy.
But none of this is confirmed.
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Interesting..
Do you know when Thomas first wife died?
Have you looked back on the 1901 for Sarah. She is with the Thomas children. Head is Hannah Davies, which maybe related.
Hannah Davies 84 Head
Sarah Thomas 36 Wife
Elizabeth Thomas 11 Daughter
Thomas Thomas 10 Son
Annie Thomas 7 Daughter
James Thomas 5 Son
Think she married Thomas 1898?
Cas
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A possible for Sarah & family, but you really need her marriage to confirm. Family can be found in census.
1881 Civil parish Kilrhedyn,
John Davies 44 Head farmer
Sarah Davies 43 Wife
William Davies 20 Son
Benjamin Davies 18 Son
Sarah Davies 16 Daughter Cilrhedyn,
David Davies 15 Son
Jane Davies 13 Daughter
Thomas Davies 9 Son
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Cilrhedyn/
Cas
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Interesting..
Do you know when Thomas first wife died?
Have you looked back on the 1901 for Sarah. She is with the Thomas children. Head is Hannah Davies, which maybe related.
Hannah Davies 84 Head
Sarah Thomas 36 Wife
Elizabeth Thomas 11 Daughter
Thomas Thomas 10 Son
Annie Thomas 7 Daughter
James Thomas 5 Son
Think she married Thomas 1898?
Cas
Yes, so Sarah's maiden name was Davies. Assume Hannah may have been her Mother?
Odd that Thomas Thomas isn't registered as living there. Unsure of the date Thomas first wife (Mary) passed, but they did have 8 children. So looking at this record, it appears that Sarah took on the children.
Still doesn't explain why Thomas Senior isn't there. He profession was as an underground timberman, so wouldn't have been away...
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1891
Civil parish Kilrhedyn
Town Capel Evan, Carmarthenshire
All b Cilrhedyn, Carmarthenshire, except father
John Davies 53 Head, wid, farmer, Penboyr, Carmarthenshire
William Davies 30 Son
Benjamin Davies 29 Son
Sarah Davies 26 Daughter
David Davies 25 Son
Thomas Davies 19 Son
John Davies 9 Son
Only marriage between census in area
Marriages Dec Q 1898 - same page
Davies Sarah Newcastle E. 11b 52
Thomas Thomas Newcastle E. 11b 52
You would really need to obtain marriage cert to confirm or throw out findings. There are many families with same names.
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1901 address is same as 1911, so same family. Not sure where Thomas is.
I think looking back on Hannah, she was not mother. Cannot find Sarah with same age or birthplace with her.
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Ah, thank you so much.
This is really helping to paint a picture!
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Alice Foan/Hollis was actually born Evans - Foan was her first husband, married in 1912
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Good spot. There is this baptism that matches the 1914 marriage
Name Charles Thomas William Foan
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 30 Oct 1915
Baptism Date 19 Nov 1915
Baptism Place Cardiff St Mary, Glamorganshire, Wales
Father Charles Foan
Mother Alice Mary Maud Foan
Another child born 1917
FOAN, MIMA FRANCES mmn EVANS
GRO Reference: 1917 D Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 639
Name Mima Frances Foan
Baptism Age 0
Birth Date 23 Sep 1917
Baptism Date 12 Oct 1917
Baptism Place Cardiff St Mary, Glamorganshire, Wales
Father Charles Foan
Mother Alice Foan
Likely death for husband
Charles Foan
Death Age 37 (b1885)
Registration Date June Q 1922
Registration district Cardiff
Inferred County Glamorganshire
Volume 11a Page 379
Remarriage in Dec Q 1922 for Thomas Hollis to Alice MM Foan
Cas
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Bapt for Alice
Name Alice Mary Maude Evans
Baptism Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 15 Feb 1892
Baptism Date 23 Mar 1892
Baptism Place Canton, Glamorganshire, Wales
Father John Harvard Evans, inspector
Mother Hannah Evans
EVANS, ALICE MARY MAUD mmn LEWIS
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 412
Your uncle was spot on with details for Alice for age & marriages. Wonder if the connection was Martha Bateman nee Lewis?
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Burial for father - address is union workhouse
Name John Havard Evans
Death Age 54
Record Type Burial
Birth Date 1845
Death Date abt 1899
Burial Date 3 Mar 1899
Burial Place Cardiff St John, Glamorganshire, Wales
Page number 64
EVANS, JOHN HAVARD mmn PHILIPPS
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 26 Page 285
1901/1911 family in household of Michael Finnigan with mother in Cardiff as stepchildren
Possible - Marriages Sep Q 1899 - same page
EVANS Hannah Cardiff 11a 633
FINNEGAN Michael Cardiff 11a 633
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1891 for birthplaces before birth of Alice.
Civil parish Canton, Cardiff
John H Evan 44 Head, weight inspector, Crickhowell, Breconshire
Hannah Evan 34 Wife, Little Newcastle, Pembroke
James H F Evan 16 Son, Haverfordwest, Pembroke (looks likely to be son of Hannah)
Hannah E G Evan 4 Daughter, Grange town, Cardiff
John H Evans 2 Son "
Not sure if this is your chap, but matches with birth reg above.
Name John Havard Evans
Birth Date 19 Jun 1843
Enrolment Date 12 Jun 1862
Rank Clerk
URL http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D7612688
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Possible 1921 census (free index) mistranscribed. Unable to view record to check
Alice Joan b1893 Cardiff, Glamorganshire living Cardiff
Cas
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You found Alice!
My Uncle believes that Martha was Ivy's Great-Aunt. Unsure whether that was on Ivy's Mother's or Father's side though.
Do we know if Alice was Ivy's mother after all? There's definitely a link as my Grandmother once told him that Ivy had a half-sister called Mima.
If so, is it looking increasingly likely that Ivy was born illegitimately, was raised by Martha for time before being returned to Alice?
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Alice b 1892
Ivy b 1910
Would have made Alice 18 when she had Ivy.
There's an odd entry on Ancestry that has a Henry Williams listed as Ivy's father, but I'm unsure how accurate that is.
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I guess DNA testing may help prove or disprove your uncles info.
Although what has been found it seems to have occurred with the marriage info provided by him...how would he know unless it had been passed on to him.
Alice died 1939 just before the 1939 register. Thomas Hollis & Mima Foan are at same address. Mima marries in 1940 to Nathaniel S Rees.
Good luck, hope you are able to sort it.
Cas
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Thanks, Cas!
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William Bateman has a bit of a chequered history
1892 - running a shebeen
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3724294/3724298/49/william%2BOR%2Bbateman%2BAND%2Bdruggist
1893 - gave bad advice in the events which led to a young woman's death
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3729969/3729973/52/william%2BOR%2Bbateman%2BAND%2Bdruggist
The connection must be on Martha's side, as William doesn't appear to have any siblings
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There's an odd entry on Ancestry that has a Henry Williams listed as Ivy's father, but I'm unsure how accurate that is.
It's not. Henry Williams is the person that William, Martha and Ivy are visiting in 1911. Ancestry (or someone who has a tree on it?) has for some reason taken him to be the father
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It looks like Martha died in 1924 - she are William are living in Cross St, Bargoed and her last entry on the electoral register i for that year. There's a death registered in Merthyr with dob 1858 - slightly out but probably her.
Might that have been the trigger for Ivy going to live with her birth mother?
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Oh, I didn't realise they'd moved to Bargoed but that certainly seems like a reasonable explanation.
Does it say what number they lived at in Cross Street?
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William Bateman has a bit of a chequered history
1892 - running a shebeen
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3724294/3724298/49/william%2BOR%2Bbateman%2BAND%2Bdruggist
1893 - gave bad advice in the events which led to a young woman's death
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3729969/3729973/52/william%2BOR%2Bbateman%2BAND%2Bdruggist
The connection must be on Martha's side, as William doesn't appear to have any siblings
Mabel, did Martha have any siblings? My Uncle believes that William and Martha were Ivy's Uncle and Aunt.
My best guess in that case is that maybe Ivy's father was Martha's brother?
Might explain Ivy having the Bateman surname as Martha had married William by then, and as you say, William had no siblings.
Maybe Ivy took William's surname as the man of the house, rather than her potential father's surname which would have been Lewis.
I can't see another explanation as to why Ivy ended up with William and Martha.
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Oh, I didn't realise they'd moved to Bargoed but that certainly seems like a reasonable explanation.
Does it say what number they lived at in Cross Street?
15 Cross St. WH Bateman isn't registered there after 1924 either.
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Mabel, did Martha have any siblings? My Uncle believes that William and Martha were Ivy's Uncle and Aunt.
My best guess in that case is that maybe Ivy's father was Martha's brother?
Might explain Ivy having the Bateman surname as Martha had married William by then, and as you say, William had no siblings.
Maybe Ivy took William's surname as the man of the house, rather than her potential father's surname which would have been Lewis.
I can't see another explanation as to why Ivy ended up with William and Martha.
when Ivy was born there was no legal adoption process, so presumably they registered her birth as a Bateman with some untruths, if the suggestion that Alice MM Evans was actually her mother is correct.
My best bet is on Martha and Alice's mother Hannah being sisters or related - they are have the maiden name Lewis and both have in at least one census given their place of birth as Little Newcastle, Pembrokeshire. However it's not easy to follow them back with certainty in the censuses, unless you invest in some marriage certs to find out their father's name(s)
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Ah, I hadn't spotted that.
Thanks, Mabel. I'll get investing!